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Still afraid of Death
Hello to you all
I am not sure if this is the correct place to post but here are my thoughts.......
I am new to Buddhism and started my practice late last Summer and on a basic level, all sorts of wonderful changes are happening, in fact, I am a completely "different" person, generally much happier and more patient!
I am still afraid of lots of things and am finding more and more the space to be able to face some of my fears (I had/am overcoming an anxiety disorder) but the big one is death. It is the fear of the unknown I suppose and the ultimate loss of control.
I am also a member of another "Buddhist" forum and no one there seems to have any fear of death what so ever. I can't believe I am the only person in the world who is afraid but no one else seems to have a problem with it.
Has anyone got any advice or comments to help??
Thanks
I am not sure if this is the correct place to post but here are my thoughts.......
I am new to Buddhism and started my practice late last Summer and on a basic level, all sorts of wonderful changes are happening, in fact, I am a completely "different" person, generally much happier and more patient!
I am still afraid of lots of things and am finding more and more the space to be able to face some of my fears (I had/am overcoming an anxiety disorder) but the big one is death. It is the fear of the unknown I suppose and the ultimate loss of control.
I am also a member of another "Buddhist" forum and no one there seems to have any fear of death what so ever. I can't believe I am the only person in the world who is afraid but no one else seems to have a problem with it.
Has anyone got any advice or comments to help??
Thanks
0
Comments
having posted on the forum you mention, I know what you mean.
And perhaps the replies you received were a bit flippant - or at least, unfair.
Because whilst, as eve9d9 points out, I personally have succeeded in accepting the perception of Death, I too have a good deal of trepidation about its approach....
With all the explanatory words, and confidence, and assurance I gave, in the end it's all theory.
I haven't actually done it yet and seen whether the proof of the pudding actually is in the eating....have I.....?
I personally find Woody Allen said it very well.
"I'm not scared of dying. I just don't want to be there when it happens..." - !!
Echo, echo, echo....!!
The thing to try to determine is to attempt to pinpoint exactly - but exactly - what it is that you are afraid of....
Then work with that specific aspect.
Dying is such a 'big' thing.
But maybe, in fact, it's just a tiny bit of the whole picture....
Krishnamurti.
Thanks for your replies.
So basically, it is okay to fear death - I can just accept that right now I fear death.
When I look, it isn't death I fear, I fear the loss of control, of submitting to something that I can't stop; I am also afraid of going somewhere alone. I don't want to be alone, going into the unknown - what if I don't like it? Or what if it really is like being asleep and and I am completely extinguished - annihilated, never to exist ever, ever again. I just cannot conceptualise this at all.
I keep trying to look at this but....it is still too scary for me right now.
Plus the process of dying might be slow and painful.
I look at it this way - if it is the end of everything, I won't know anything about it, so it doesn't matter. If it is anything else it will be the greatest adventure ever - where am I going and with whom or alone?
Maybe it will be the blink of an eye and a transition to another life form, like changing channels on a TV set. Maybe one's own attitude will decide whether we like it or not.
I'm still scared of death. My mom's not though. She's a very devout Christian and has complete faith that she'll go to Heaven and be reunited with all the loved ones she's lost. I kind of envy her faith and confidence.
I think, too, that denial is more often seen than a genuine non-fear of death.
My own experience, having been at the point of death a time or two, is that the fear comes and goes. When I was first diagnosed with heart disese, I felt consumed by dread. My 'anam cara' (soul friend in the Celtic tradition) sat and listened to my rants, passed me tissues, nodded, and didn't run away. The fit passed.
It is quite easy to get rid of the fear of non-breathing status, in an intellectual way. But even those who have got as far as that, still scream and grab the handle above the door if they think the car is about to crash.
And you'll never know the difference.
-bf
It's a rarity anymore.
-bf
I actually feel much happier knowing that I am not alone in my fear. It is the thought of death that I am afraid of - if it happened right now. So, maybe it just like all my other thoughts - let them go. I just can't see the bigger picture right now, maybe realising emptiness may help!:)
I spend time on another forum where some of the members spend quite a lot of time thinking about and preparing for death as it is very important in the Tibetan tradition that when one dies, one keeps a sense of calm and awareness of what is happening so they can "control their rebirth". But, isn't the idea of trying to control one's rebirth just the ego again trying to take control over something that can't be controlled? I am interested to hear what you think.
I just think life is for living and you can prepare mentally but how can you prepare to die? You can meditate on death but I find this a bit depressing. I think just letting go of our thoughts and emotions each day, little by little unknowingly helps us prepare in that we can learn to accept whatever arises, and we can learn that there is no good, no bad, only what is happening right now. I find this quite difficult!
I suppose this practice seems a bit too advanced for me (I have been self studying for about 8 months), I want to live life to the full and radiate as much warmth and kindness towards others as I can. I don't feel ready for this heavy stuff!
Your views on this are much appreciated.
Graceful Exits - How Great Beings Die
By Sushila Blackman
Reviews of Graceful Exits
"The striking element in these accounts is a sense of being fully prepared to meet death. Blackman grappled with lung cancer and came to peace with her own fears about death as she compiled this book, completed only a few months before she died."—Library Journal
"Written in lucid prose, the book is a training manual for making graceful exits from this life."—Publishers Weekly
"Not since the ground-breaking work of Kubler-Ross on death and dying has there been such a much needed compilation of inspirational stories and examples of how to prepare oneself for the inevitable."—Midwestern Book Review
Praise for Graceful Exits
"This beautiful little book is a gem. It contributes to our understanding that we are truly timeless."—Deepak Chopra, M.D.
"A magical little volume. It reveals with simplicity and lucidity how wise and compassionate living leads to a wise and compassionate death."—Glenn H. Mullin, author of Death and Dying: The Tibetan Tradition
Description of Graceful Exits
Death is a subject obscured by fear and denial. When we do think of dying, we are more often concerned with how to avoid the pain and suffering that may accompany our death than we are with really confronting the meaning of death and how to approach it. Sushila Blackman places death—and life—in a truer perspective, by telling us of others who have left this world with dignity.
Graceful Exits offers valuable guidance in the form of 108 stories recounting the ways in which Hindu, Tibetan Buddhist, and Zen masters, both ancient and modern, have confronted their own deaths. By directly presenting the grace, clarity, and even humor with which great spiritual teachers have met the end of their days, Blackman provides inspiration and nourishment to anyone truly concerned with the fundamental issues of life and death.
'Letting go' never seems to get easier, and it's one I need to be reminded of constantly. I think the emphasis on death isn't supposed to be some morbid thing. Some folks get really involved with this...and I think a little 'unbalanced' about it. Reflection on death is reflection on impermanence...and should be liberating. The aspect of 'preparing for the next bardo' is wise...because I hear so many stories of people that died and struggled with passing because they weren't prepared. I've heard that the Tibetan practice believes that this passing can bring emotional/karmic 'imprints' into the next bardos/life...like old baggage. Better to have as clean a slate as possible.
Palzang
Good thread. From what I understand it would be impossible to "control" one's rebirth if the ego were present. We are talking about a very advanced practice for yogins who are well along the path. Just check - how much are you able to maintain awareness when falling asleep, or within the dream state?
Better not to waste time on that IMHO and better to develop a meditation practice which can lead to calm abiding and so on.
Yeah - with you on that one.
Indeed, as is meditating on *ahem* emptiness.
AKA - samatha and samhadi.
Don't blame you.
namaste
Kris
That is interesting. If I wasn't so afraid of living (what ever I get presented with) then maybe I wouldn't be so afraid of death.
Maybe it's time for me to stop running. Easier said than done!
Hi Kris
Thank you for responding.
So, to control ones rebirth, do you need to have realised emptiness, is that the same as enlightenment????
With reference to calm abiding (going off thread slightly), does this take years of sustained practice? What exactly is calm abiding? I get sucked in by my thoughts continually....I can only concentrate on my breath for a matter of seconds before I get dragged off again. :doh:
Glad to help. That is one 'monster' question! My first contact with Buddhism was Tibetan, specifically vajrayana and speaking from that point of view I would say the following. It is quite impossible to control ones rebirth without the attainment of the Clear Light mind. This means full absorption into the heart chakra, as at the time of death or sleep, and full awareness of that process. We are talking major stuff here.
Please do not equate teachings on emptiness with the direct experience of the Clear Light mind. In my opinion (and it's controversial) studying philosophical tracts on emptiness according to the four schools is not all that useful. It can help us intellectually accept the absence of an inherent person but it's no aid in meditation, as all such discursive activity is jettisoned at an early stage.
Only the experience then counts - not any opinion or philosophy. According to vajrayana direct realisation of bliss and emptiness are the components of enlightenment, not debating partless particles and such like. (Oh heretic).
Not off topic at all, as this is a key practice and NO it doesn't take years to achieve. You don't need to be a saintly person, know lots of stuff, own a cool mala or have performed numerous rituals.
What you have written about your practice is actually spot-on, it could not be better. (hugs). Breathing meditation AKA anapanasati in the Theravadan tradition, is not about fixing concentration or fighting thoughts, it's just being aware of them as they arise and pass. Relax and watch the show. Feel your whole body and the field of your senses. Be aware and relax-out. Meditation is only about what you actually feel, not what somebody tells you you should feel, or their limits on your mind. It's actually much easier than it's made out to be.
For my money the Theravadans explain this better than the Tibetans and I was able to equate my early successes with the descriptions of the form Jhanas I found therein.
These states do occur and whilst they are not enlightenment (by a long shot) it's quite comforting to know that your feet are in Buddha's footprints.
Try reading this free book (it was a major help for me) by Bhante Vimalaramsi.
The Anapanasati Sutta : A Practical Guide to Mindfulness of Breathing and Tranquil Wisdom:
http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/books.htm
The rest of the site is good too. There are audio talks etc.
Best wishes
Kris
Like the saying goes: "Life's a bitch and then you die."
Hi Kris
I don't understand the term "absorption" in this context or in the context of meditation either (or are they one and the same). If you are completely absorbed in this way does this mean you lose awareness of "yourself" but if you lose awareness then you are not mindful. Forgive me, I find some of these terms a bit confusing sometimes.
When I am being mindful and trying to stay in the present, whether I am brushing my teeth or whatever, I am still aware of the fact that I am brushing my teeth and there is a toothbrush but say I am reading a book or drawing, I am completely lost in what I am doing and there is no book and no me (that I am aware of)...or is there but I am not seeing this yet. I don't think I am explaining myself very well, I always find this so difficult to describe in mere words.
Thanks
Hi Lisa,
Absorption can mean many things to many people. I assumed your Tibetan background would have provided the context for my Clear Light ramblings. Within this setting it means the eight signs - fire flies through to the mind of near black attainment and on to the clear light. If you have no knowledge of vajrayana please disregard this - it's not worth worrying about, honestly.
Within a meditative context it is a disputed and sometimes 'dirty' word, ie. something to be avoided. It is said that there is a state (similar to deep sleep or hibernation) which is to be avoided at all costs, as it is a fruitless 'absorption' - so that's just one more meaning to throw on the pile.
Mindfulness is another flexible term. We could do a thesis on this stuff but...
The best thing to do is discover it for yourself in meditation, as it is the 'experiential' which will inform the 'intellectual', not the other way around. In other words any study you conduct will only be to contextualise what you experience in meditation.
Otherwise it's like trying to describe the taste of an olive to someone who has never eaten one. Is it salty like crisps? Is it firm like an apple?
Easier to pop one in and give it a chew :tonguec:
Namaste
Kris
http://www.amazon.com/Death-Fear-Thich-Nhat-Hanh/dp/1573223336
This is a great thread, by the way.
I used to have massive fear of death and what lay beyond. I have a panic disorder ( a severe one) and thinking about what lay beyond death was the trigger that pushed me off the cliff. It took me more than two years to get to a place of...not peace, but manageability, I guess.
When I was able to look at my fear without it triggering panic, I saw that what it came down to for me was all the "What ifs" about death I kept asking. "What if this happens...? What if that happens...? What if I can't handle it....? What if...? What if...? What if...?" I drove myself nuts with the "What ifs", imagining worse case scenarios and horrible hells of torment ( to "prepare" myself, of course).
The one thing I thought I couldn't do was let the questions go. I HAD to have answers and that was all there was to it. I had to find some peace in the whole thing, some level of comfort, so I could go on living my life without the fear of panicking at any moment. I thought I could only find this peace with some definitive answers and I was convinced someone, somewhere, had them and I only had to find that person, or persons, and I'd finally "get it" and be able to resume my normal life. The only thing that was unacceptable to me was not finding the answers.
Fast forward to today and it seems I've done a 180 turn and finally taken the Buddha's words to heart. He taught that there were some things we could not understand in our current unenlightened form, no matter how many questions we asked or how badly we thought we needed answers. There were some things, like the intricate workings of Kamma and the origin of the cosmos, that our limited minds were simply incapable of understanding and to pursue these unanswerable questions in an obsessive way could lead one to a thicket of wrong views and even madness. I can definitely attest to that.
When I first encountered this teaching, the Imponderables, I think, I was less than happy. I still thought I needed answers and it worsened my fears that the Buddha wouldn't even talk about these things because my childish imagination filled in the blanks with all sorts of horrible nonsense. At the same time, the Buddha's teaching that there were more important things to focus on, things we could understand and develop, started to give me some comfort. There were things I could be doing in the meantime that would be helpful right now as well as in the longterm, and focusing on them and doing them to the best of my ability at that time helped immensely.
It wasn't until I fully accepted the truth that I couldn't understand death and the beyond, or whatever it is, that I finally stopped asking the "What ifs" and stopped torturing myself with questions that had no understandable answers for me. Now I can truthfully say that I have no idea what death truly entails, nor do I know what happens after death, and I don't care much anymore. I wasted enough time and did untold physical damage to myself through all the panic attacks I put myself through and now it's time to let all of it go and work on things I can understand and change. Like the AA mantra, understand what I can't change, know what I can, and have the wisdom to know the difference.
So do I still fear death? Of course!! Lol! I'm an unenlightened human being filled with delusion and misunderstanding. Of course I still fear death. The difference is that I don't feed that fear anymore. Que sera, sera...and in the meantime I'll work my ass off learning and understanding what I can understand of what the Buddha taught and doing everything I can do everyday to develop into a better person. That alone should take a few thousand lifetimes.
Nice to speak to you....
Guess what? I also have panic disorder with agoraphobia (in recovery at present) so there is a coincidence!
I think you are right, it is all the "what ifing" which I have a Masters Degree in and of course death is the ultimate unknown.
It is the teachings that are helping me to recover and accept who I am and in accepting who I am, I am finding I am not that bad afterall and I can let go of trying to control everything. So, I have panic disorder right now....so what!
As long as we keep working our butts off as Buddha implored us to do we will find our truth.
I am so glad you are finding some relief from your fears as I am too.
Many "experts" told me I would never recover from panic disorder on my own but with alot of study, daily meditation, discipline and joyous effort I have managed to do this and so far so good. I still have a long way to go but my perception is slowly changing!
Jason
Every time we're able to send our scary thoughts to the reasoning center of the brain (the frontal lobe) instead of bypassing it and having the scary thoughts go straight to the amygdala (the oldest part of the brain, the fear center) and causing panic when there is actually no present danger, we are forging and strengthening new neural pathways in our brains. The old neural pathways, the ones that bypass the reasoning center and go straight to the amygdala causing the panic response, will weaken as the new ones strengthen. So what we're doing is not only changing the chemistry of our brains but we're actually changing the physiology of our brains. Conquering fear itself. How totally great is that? What a huge blessing to be given such a challenge, a challenge for which we've both been given the perfect tools; Buddhism.
There are many ways to force the scary thoughts to go to the reasoning center of the brain where they are defused and the panic reaction never manifests. One of the best ways is to remind yourself not to believe everything you think. We are deluded, confused, unenlightened beings and as such it's unreasonable to think that all our thoughts can be fully trusted as reflections of reality. It's much closer to the truth to say our thoughts are unreliable and misleading at best. We have imaginations and that's a good thing when it comes to creating things and so on. But it's no good at all for seeing things as they actually are. We imagine suffering to be much worse than it actually is, for example. We imagine the unknown to be much worse than it actually is. We may imagine future events to be more challenging and frightening than they actually are when we finally get there. In short, it's our imagination and its ability to create grandiose "what if' scenarios that leads us down the path to panic because we've been trained to believe what we think and imagine. That's like trusting in superstition. It's completely unreliable.
When these questions, like what happens at death, or after death, or how the cosmos was created or how the intricate workings of kamma play out, start to fool around in brains like ours we tend to grasp onto anything we can call "truth" in order to prevent ourselves from panicking. But there's just no definitive way for the unenlightened mind to understand the workings of death and to grasp for answers is at best futile and at worst panic triggering. There's just no point in trying to find a truth we're unable to understand.
Here's what I tell myself about death: I don't know how it works or what's going to happen, but it's happened to everyone before me and will happen to everyone after me. So I'm not the only one. If they can do it, so can I. I'll die if I panic and I'll die if I don't. So there's no use in wasting a single moment of this very precious life in self induced panic when I can choose to let the search for answers go and allow the answers to find me when it's time.
Hope this is some help. It's good to know I have a friend who has struggled with the same things I have. It's also good to know we're both learning how to conquer fear. Imagine how much stronger we'll be and how much more good we'll be able to do! We'll be invulnerable!! Like superheroes!! Gods even....(just kidding.
My father died when I was very little, I seem to have had a lot of people die around me (run away quick, here comes Knitwitch) so I suppose I got used to the idea of death very early on. And I have stared the Grim Reaper in the face so often now that we are on first name terms.
Brigid is right in that what we fear most of all is the unknown. If we go to the dentist, we know what to expect, that it will not be pleasant but it will be bearable and eventually over. We don't know that about death so our imaginations play tricks with us.
Trick your own imagination - maybe it will be great! Maybe dying will be the best thing in your life!
I don't think it is death that scares me (well it does, and it scares just about everyone) but I think it is the not knowing. Where will I go, what will happen, will I be alone? It is simply the not knowing that is the problem but therein lays another realisation of sorts....I need to be control of everything all the time......death is the ultimate "loss of control" (or is as I perceive it at this moment).
There ya go! I knew I would find it underneath the layers of thinking somewhere.
I cannot control when, where or how I die so why worry? I am worried but there is no point in worrying about being worried!
:hohum:
http://www.thebards.net/music/lyrics/Always_Look_Bright_Side_Life.shtml
I have a panic disorder and suffer from depression but this always brings a smile to me!
Birth and death are a hide and seek game.
Hi Fresh Breeze,
We're all control freaks when it comes down to it.
Who wants to consider life like a random chaotic event - slipping through our hapless fingers like sand?
I do sometimes wonder though whether we live life, or whether life lives us.
I disagree with Iawa's Buddhist assertion that we were never born and, thus, never die. We are born and we do die. These are processes through which our awareness passes and no amount of worthy semantics can ever allay it. There's little point pretending that it's all illusory because it's as 'real' now as it's ever going to get. The profound recognition that there is a lack of an 'inherently existent person' or 'self' amongst the aggregates (the non-existent who was never born) can't be the final chapter.
What does the observing and acknowledges that lack?
That life is a game of hide and seek - I'm with him on that one.
namaste
Kris
I agree that we're all "control freaks", especially when it comes to the subject of death. That's because we are so attached to our bodies. We think the body is our self. We don't understand that A) our body is not our self, and
BTW, in case you're wondering, I don't have a substance abuse problem. I just like the 12 Step philosophy. My teacher feels it meshes very well with Buddhism. In other words, we're all addicted to samsara, so treat it like an addiction.
Palzang
I used to be afraid of dying without having found any peace in this life. I know what peace feels like now. I've had a few glimpses of it through the practice of mindfulness and as a result, I no longer fear death.
One is but a continuation of the life matter that has been passed down in an unbroken chain for a millinia. To be born is to bring forth something from nothing. Our flesh will decay in an attempt to rejoin that from which it came (okay embalming has mucked up the whole system of the continuous life cycle). True we do not leave our flesh to be eaten by animals, nor do we have our bones ground into meal to return to the life process of the earth. Each person in some sense has existed within the predessors before them. Life can be seen in an example of a never ending relay race. It doesn't matter when the race started or where it ends what matters is what do you do when you have the baton.
I like that !
Addicted to spinning the wheel, hmm, that's another way to think about it.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/samsara.html
I agree with that.
But "Knitwitch" = "this time around". The next time around, it's not likely to be Knitwitch No.2, unless Palzang spills the beans on the Kagu reincarnation / rigpa stuff and we all crack that Bardo / rainbow body thing! You can come back and get me then.
I don't see why. I, for one, like Knitwitch.
Namaste
Kris
Sort of with you on that one.
Nothing will come of nothing, as someone once said. Perhaps we have to understand what we mean by "something" and "nothing"?
That and plastic bags!
I have a habit of dropping it;)
Namaste
Kris
:)Not doing that again. Cheerfully, cheerfully, on we go ...........
I know what you mean. I feel the same when I look at my life. But would it have been right if it had gone another way?
Same here.
Namaste
When I first came across the notion of rebirth/reincarnation, I used to wonder whether we simply 'came back' as ourselves and tried to do the same life better next time round. After all, time-and-space are only constructs not constrictions. I would welcome the chance to avoid my earlier wickedness and the hurt I have caused.
One of my 'esoteric' practitioner friends told me that she had seen that I had been a 'powerful black (i.e. as in 'black magic') practitioner' which is why I cannot 'see' this time - a preparation life for the next initiation. Sounded interesting but did not connect with any personal intuition.
Enoch Powell said that every political life ends in failure and, perhaps, every life must do so too. Teaches us humility and, as time runs out, to do the small good that we can, whilst avoiding the bad as far as possible.
Hopefully each time around we get some of it right and then get another go to get the rest of it sorted out.
Then finally we come back as someone totally perfect and drive everyone else nuts!