Disruption and high jinks....

federica

Due to unprecedented administrative problems at e-sangha, (I'm not prepared to say anything more) some prominent ex-members have formed a new website:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/index.php

This is exclusively a Theravada website, and has been created for Theravadans to be able to discuss, learn, study and debate with ease and in peace.
of course, it goes without saying that Buddhists of other traditions are more than welcome to hop aboard and discuss with us.
But the likes of:

Ben O'Loughlin
Retrofuturist
The Venerables Dhammanando and Appicchiato
Element
and me -
Will not be going to e-sangha any longer.

Thanks.

jacx

Oh, dear.

Good luck on your Theravada board (I'm a Zennish person, so I don't think I'll be joining), but I think it's rather a shame and a pity that a non-sectarian Buddhist community is falling apart like this. "One mountain can't abide two tigers," I suppose.

Brian

I'm no stranger to internet drama. Matt and I are masters of the "forum schism"

http://icrontic.com/history

Best of luck to the new site

srivijaya

There do seem to have been plenty of recent threads about why Mahayana is superior to Thera-yana (as they might as well call it, cos that's implicit in what is not directly said).
Unbearable arrogance and stupidity.

I do hope the new board is less poisonous and testosterone-driven than e-s. It seems to be run with the ethos "if the nail sticks out, you hammer it in" - and boy they do.

I haven't been a significant contributor there for quite a time.

Knitwitch

Very best of luck to the new site.

I will probably pop in and read, hoping for a refreshing change from some of the more extreme excesses elsewhere.

I too stopped going to ES some time ago (but may sneak in to nick my avatar back!)

Palzang

I checked out e-sangha for a while, but I found it just too full of know-it-all know-nothings and big egos who loved to rip each other apart. Not much Buddhist happening there.

Palzang

Knitwitch

Thanks Pally - that is exactly the impression I got, but I thought it was just me. For people supposedly practicing universal compassion there didn't seem to be much evidence of it ...

Brigid

Hi, Fede.

I'll be joining you lot as soon as possible. Thanks for the heads up! It's sad news in one sense but really happy, exciting news in another. I hope we can imbue the new forum with the same spirit we have here.

I went to E-Sangha once. Once.

Jason

For all of its flaws (e.g., intense moderation, prevalence of fundamentalist viewpoints, etc.) E-Sangha is great resource in that it has managed to collect many great monastics, practitioners and scholars all in one place. I certainly do not spend as much time there as I used to, but I still benefit from their discussions (perhaps, in part, due to the fact that I am a semi-know-it-all know-nothing with a moderately big ego who likes a good debate every now and then). As of late, I have been impressed with the Ven. Huifeng's posts as he has had the benefit of studying with many prominent monastics and scholars in the field of Buddhist history and philosophy.

harlan

Good luck in your ventures. If allowed, I will pop in and listen? So much ego...it is hard to hear the message for the shouting of 'dhamma nazis' over at the 'e' place.

Simonthepilgrim

Elohim wrote: »

For all of its flaws (e.g., intense moderation, prevalence fundamentalist viewpoints, etc.) E-Sangha is great resource in that it has managed to collect many great monastics, practitioners and scholars all in one place. I certainly do not spend as much time there as I used to, but I still benefit from their discussions (perhaps, in part, due to the fact that I am a semi-know-it-all know-nothing with a moderately big ego who likes a good debate every now and then). As of late, I have been impressed with the Ven. Huifeng's posts as he has had the benefit of studying with many prominent monastics and scholars in the field of Buddhist history and philosophy.

I no longer visit E-Sangha for debate, discussion, friendship or support, I do agree with you, Jason, that it is a great resource. The trick is not to be drawn into the discussion.

There is a great story about a meeting of the top Jesuits in Rome. The discussion practically turned into a fist-fight. The Father General, Pedro Arrupe, simply sat on a cushion, facing the wall, as he had learned in Japan during WW2 as Provincial there right through the atomic atrocities. After a while, the noise subsided and all these highly-trained priests, all with a rigourous daily spiritual practice and many years of experience began to take their seats. Finally silence reigned. After a while, Fr Arrupe gets up, takes his seat back at the head of the table and just carries on as if there had never been a sudden squall.

My godfather, who was there, told me that he felt a great sense of 'waking up' at that moment.

Whilst we can't, I believe, use the medium of discussion boards to bring about the same sort of effect, we can benefit by the accumulated knowledge and information avauilable at so 'venerable' a site. It is up to us how we transform all that into wisdom.

P.S. Nobody ever seems really surprised that Christian sites get argumentative and it is often cited as 'proof' that Xtianity is somehow poisonous. Have you ever looked at Jewish or Muslim boards? Oy veh!!!

LesC

I tried "belonging" to E-Sangha for a while, but I found them to be very stand-offish and not really newbie friendly. So after an interminable period of not getting anywhere, I found this site.

I drop in and check out your site Fede, thanks for the invite!

Palzang

See, your karma is improving!

Palzang

LesC

So it would appear!!!

Simonthepilgrim

Palzang wrote: »

See, your karma is improving!

Palzang

Hmm! Can it be 'better' or 'worse' except in too long a run to judge? Just like gravity.

Palzang

Yes, it can.

Palzang

retrofuturist

Greetings everyone,

Thanks to Federica for the Dhamma Wheel name check (http://www.dhammawheel.com/). :cool:

We're hoping that Dhamma Wheel will become a nice site for the discussion of (primarily) Theravada Buddhism. Of course, members of other Buddhist traditions are welcome to join, discuss and learn about the Way Of The Elders, along with the rest of us.

We have a public Suggestion Box for improvements, so if you see any means by which the site could be improved, don't hesitate to post your ideas or send them to me at the site via PM, if you would rather do it confidentially for any reason.

May all beings be happy.

Metta,
Retro.

srivijaya

retrofuturist wrote: »

We're hoping that Dhamma Wheel will become a nice site for the discussion of (primarily) Theravada Buddhism.

Hi Retro,
I guess that will largely depend on how tolerant the Theravadan's on your board are. Most of us are a bit of a mixture and I for one draw on more than one tradition. Some orthodox people find this completely unacceptable and regard such as an insult to or a dilution / corruption of their tradition. So can you take a more magnanimous approach?

This is much of E-Sangha's problem. They are busy defining what makes them better / different from one another, rather than looking at what they have in common. Posting there is like taking a stroll through a field of unexploded mines. There is an oppressive culture of warnings and threats from mods, wannabee mods and other busy-bodies.

As you are plainly establishing a Theravadan board, it will be difficult knowing how to address posts from people of different Buddhist (or other religious) backgrounds. The easy way out is to tell them that you have no comment on this or that topic and that they should (politely) take a hike.

I hope your new board doesn't end up like that. Good luck with it.

retrofuturist

Greetings srivijaya,

We have some active members who are not Theravadin, and everyone seems to get along fine. People seem to understand the scope of the forum and participate accordingly.

We've also set up a "Discovering Theravada" forum especially for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask about the tradition, so that they don't feel over-awed by some of the more technical fora.

>I hope your new board doesn't end up like that.

We'll be doing our best to avoid all of the above-mentioned unpleasantness.

Metta,
Retro.

Simonthepilgrim

Palzang wrote: »

Yes, it can.

Palzang

This puzzles me, Palzang. I'm not quite sure how to phrase the puzzlement but it is something like this:
We are taught that there is no reward or punishment, only the outcomes of karma. If, however, we can speak of "karma improving" that implies a judgment of value which seems similar, to me, to reward; i.e. "Good karma brings good things which will be experienced by whoever was responsible for that good karma." Have I completely misunderstood what you are saying?

My discomfort with this way of expressing things (and I admit to having used it in the past) is the inference that karma is both dualistic and personal. Is it not more like gravity, an impersonal force which maintains and infuses all of samsara? Like gravity or magnetism, it is a force of nature.

Of course, I also understand that discussions on karma tend to reach unsatisfactory conclusions. Or, at least, those that I have witnessed seem to. The end is so often one where the participants metaphorically fold their hands, bow their heads and submit (or grind their teeth in disagreement).

Palzang

(grinding teeth :werr:) Well, yes, the way we perceive our karma is definitely dualistic, but then everything we perceive is dualistic, isn't it? That's just the way we are. However, the point I was making (if indeed I was making one) is that karma can be purified. If we find ourselves suffering (from karma), we can purify this suffering to the point where our suffering lessens or even transforms into joy. This is possible. This is the point of practice.

Of course, we can never do away with karma. Karma is exacting. It will always manifest in some form or other. The way it manifests, however, can be influenced by our practice. In Tibetan Buddhism we have a practice called Vajrasattva in which we visualize our negativities being purified by Buddha Vajrasattva, who appears as a white being of light, stainless. And I can speak from my own experience that this practice works. In fact, it is very potent. Yet karma, negative or otherwise (I prefer the term negative to bad) will still manifest. We can't escape that.

I remember a story about the Buddha. I don't remember the details, but it went something like this. One day the Buddha told his attendant that he had to rest as he was experiencing a headache. Somewhat confused, the attendant asked how he, an enlightened being, could experience the suffering of a headache. The Buddha explained that the headache was the manifestation of negative karma from a past life. I think it was killing fish or something like that. But it was being experienced as a headache rather than something worse, like being killed himself, as he had purified his karma. So when it did manifest it did so in a much more benign fashion.

Palzang

Jason

Palzang,

Palzang wrote: »

The Buddha explained that the headache was the manifestation of negative karma from a past life. I think it was killing fish or something like that. But it was being experienced as a headache rather than something worse, like being killed himself, as he had purified his karma. So when it did manifest it did so in a much more benign fashion.

Perhaps, or perhaps his headache was do to the fact that he had a human body, and sometimes we get headaches. In the Pali Canon, it is made clear that an awakened person can still feel physical pain, but they are said to not resist and resent it, i.e., there is no mental anguish associated with it (SN 36.6). In my opinion, the idea that awakened individuals such as the Buddha do not experience physical pain or ailments is a hagiographic exaggeration.

Jason

Palzang

It was just a story.

Palzang

Jason

Palzang,

I understand, I was just adding my two cents as I have been discussing this very point in another forum and it is still fresh in my mind.

Jason

jacx

Heh... Last year, I had to leave a couple of fora due to a rash promise to one of my teachers! He asked a group of us to commit to not engaging in sectarian debates. I agreed, then found the temptation irresistible on some community boards.

Fortunately, I found Newbuddhist.com

Simonthepilgrim

Palzang wrote: »

(grinding teeth :werr:) Well, yes, the way we perceive our karma is definitely dualistic, but then everything we perceive is dualistic, isn't it? That's just the way we are. However, the point I was making (if indeed I was making one) is that karma can be purified. If we find ourselves suffering (from karma), we can purify this suffering to the point where our suffering lessens or even transforms into joy. This is possible. This is the point of practice.

Of course, we can never do away with karma. Karma is exacting. It will always manifest in some form or other. The way it manifests, however, can be influenced by our practice. In Tibetan Buddhism we have a practice called Vajrasattva in which we visualize our negativities being purified by Buddha Vajrasattva, who appears as a white being of light, stainless. And I can speak from my own experience that this practice works. In fact, it is very potent. Yet karma, negative or otherwise (I prefer the term negative to bad) will still manifest. We can't escape that.

I remember a story about the Buddha. I don't remember the details, but it went something like this. One day the Buddha told his attendant that he had to rest as he was experiencing a headache. Somewhat confused, the attendant asked how he, an enlightened being, could experience the suffering of a headache. The Buddha explained that the headache was the manifestation of negative karma from a past life. I think it was killing fish or something like that. But it was being experienced as a headache rather than something worse, like being killed himself, as he had purified his karma. So when it did manifest it did so in a much more benign fashion.

Palzang

Thank you for your words, Palzang. I shall continue to reflect on them. It may be time for me to stop hijacking this thread.

LesC

Simonthepilgrim wrote: »

Thank you for your words, Palzang. I shall continue to reflect on them. It may be time for me to stop hijacking this thread.

Bummer... now how much fun would THAT be??!!! Simon, we newbies live for your hijacks!!! Hijacks are like hijinks without the malice!

christopher___

Hi all.

I think some of the complaints about E-S mods being heavy handed at times are correct. And it concerned me that on ocassion newcomers were made to feel unwelcome. On the other hand the forum provides an incredible resource for dharma practitioners. I have been one of the most active posters over there for almost 5 years now. I learned so much!

And I learned from the negative experiences as much (if not more) then from the positive. In my first year i constantly tangled with moderators. I was given warnings, my level going up to 40% at one time. Then at some point i just stopped fighting, stopped allowing myself to get upset. Stopped demonizing (in my mind) the moderators that I didnt get along with. Still debated from time to time, but learned to flow with things and take advantage of all the advanced practitioners there and knowledgeable people.

I'm concerned now that the tide is turning against the website and some people are now being overly hostile, toward the e-sangha administrators. I dunno. It's hard to get all the facts but I hope that somehow people are able to bridge the bad feelings and cultivate some mutual respect. I found this forum from a website outside called "E-sangha Watch." I will not give the link, but I think its over the top. There are photos of moderators and the site owners, like they are wanted criminals.

They are not, they are human beings. The site owner Leo started e-sangha with the very best of intentions. I am bothered that our dharma brothers are being demonized. They are human, but they are not evil.

If we all practice the dharma to the best of our ability then the words of others should not bother us. What anyone thinks about me is just their perception.

We all need to go deeper maybe, remembering our shared connections?

I dunno.

Chris,
aka riv:::

Simonthepilgrim

Good to meet you, Christopher, and thank you for a timely reminder.

Human beings so often imitate dogs, growling in a corner over the well-gnawed bone of their imagined hurts.

christopher___

Hello Simon,

Yes, I think so. Buddha himself talked about this so often. Just look at the opening lines of the Dhammapada. If we cling to ideas of others as bad or evil we just spin samsara in our own minds. Everything happens for a reason. When we get hit by sh*t perhaps its cause we needed the fertilizer? Just dont swallow crap thrown your way, and it will help you to grow.

Knitwitch

Indeed - a timely reminder.

Quite often it is so much more positive to walk away rather than give in to anger and bitterness. And once the walking is done, keep quiet.

christopher___

Knitwitch wrote: »

And once the walking is done, keep quiet.

Right. And we all know how hard that can be.

:crazy:

Moon

christopher::: wrote: »

Hi all.

I think some of the complaints about E-S mods being heavy handed at times are correct. And it concerned me that on ocassion newcomers were made to feel unwelcome. On the other hand the forum provides an incredible resource for dharma practitioners. I have been one of the most active posters over there for almost 5 years now. I learned so much!

And I learned from the negative experiences as much (if not more) then from the positive. In my first year i constantly tangled with moderators. I was given warnings, my level going up to 40% at one time. Then at some point i just stopped fighting, stopped allowing myself to get upset. Stopped demonizing (in my mind) the moderators that I didnt get along with. Still debated from time to time, but learned to flow with things and take advantage of all the advanced practitioners there and knowledgeable people.

I'm concerned now that the tide is turning against the website and some people are now being overly hostile, toward the e-sangha administrators. I dunno. It's hard to get all the facts but I hope that somehow people are able to bridge the bad feelings and cultivate some mutual respect. I found this forum from a website outside called "E-sangha Watch." I will not give the link, but I think its over the top. There are photos of moderators and the site owners, like they are wanted criminals.

They are not, they are human beings. The site owner Leo started e-sangha with the very best of intentions. I am bothered that our dharma brothers are being demonized. They are human, but they are not evil.

If we all practice the dharma to the best of our ability then the words of others should not bother us. What anyone thinks about me is just their perception.

We all need to go deeper maybe, remembering our shared connections?

I dunno.

Chris,
aka riv:::

I fully agree with what you have said here, Chris. My experiences at Esangha are similar to yours. I do not however believe that the tide is turning against Esangha - friends gather and part all the time, this is samsara, things don't always work out as we believe they should and we wont all always agree.
Those who do not agree with the way Esangha is run will go off and create new places and like minded people will join those groups. In the end it is important to be careful about which groups and actions we support, and how we go about not supporting the ones we do not like. Negative rejoicing and gossiping makes our minds stupid, demonizing others harms us more in the long run.

Simonthepilgrim

Hello Moon. Good to meet you. Nice to have new people join in.

Knitwitch

christopher::: wrote: »

Right. And we all know how hard that can be.

:crazy:

oooooooooooooh yes - the temptation to carry on "picking at the scab" is very strong but just like that metaphor, the only person to hurt is the picker!

Moon

Thanks Simon.

Knitwitch

Hello Moon - welcome to the board - sorry I didn't say that in my last post

(I'm sewing again and it makes my head go silly)

Brian

Still though, you must admit that site owners are responsible for the overall tone, texture, and (as I like to call it) "Flavor" of the community they oversee. We guide the overall culture of our web communities, and one way we do that is by making our rules and stances clear when it comes to conduct that we allow, as well as conduct that we discourage (or ban outright) on our sites. A community requires a strong leader and a sense of vision—as well as a team of people who understand that vision and can help execute it. If a site falls apart due to some schism or exodus of people, then clearly there are cultural issues, and it is the staff's responsibility to recognize the problem and make things right.

I won't tolerate meanness. That's close to being my only rule of conduct on the websites I run—don't be mean to each other. When people get mean, that's when communities start to fall apart.

christopher___

Brian wrote: »

Still though, you must admit that site owners are responsible for the overall tone, texture, and (as I like to call it) "Flavor" of the community they oversee. We guide the overall culture of our web communities, and one way we do that is by making our rules and stances clear when it comes to conduct that we allow, as well as conduct that we discourage (or ban outright) on our sites. A community requires a strong leader and a sense of vision—as well as a team of people who understand that vision and can help execute it. If a site falls apart due to some schism or exodus of people, then clearly there are cultural issues, and it is the staff's responsibility to recognize the problem and make things right.

I won't tolerate meanness. That's close to being my only rule of conduct on the websites I run—don't be mean to each other. When people get mean, that's when communities start to fall apart.

Simple but wise, brian. Unfortunately, when staff are allowed to be mean at times, things start imploding. One must look out for that, when leading. And leaders must set the right tone.

Otherwise....

:eek:

Brian

Absolutely: the behaviour of the staff is a direct reflection of the owner's vision. If the staff acts in a manner in which the owner doesn't agree, that staff member needs to be removed from staff.

Palzang

Knitwitch wrote: »

(I'm sewing again and it makes my head go silly)

Why are you sewing your head, dear?

Palzang

Palzang

And welcome to Christopher and Moon as well. We need some fresh blood around here-all of us old fogies are getting to know each other too well!

Palzang

Knitwitch

Palzang wrote: »

Why are you sewing your head, dear?

Palzang

Well it seemed to be falling apart again so .....

(actually it's been too cold to get up in my workshop for ages so today was the first time I got up there to get around to finishing off the 101 projects I have to do)

federica

Hello Christopher, and Moon!
Don't know if you've had a chance to look round the "house" but you're welcome to explore! No "out of bounds" here! (Though we respect each others' space......)

It's very nice to meet you both.
Make yourselves at home and launch right in.
As has been said, it's good to have new members to chew the cud with.....

Welcome!!

Knitwitch

DANG My head really has gone walkabout today .... I never even offered to put the kettle on or get the bikkie tin out.

(bustle, bustle, bustle) Here we are, refreshments coming right up.

jj5

Knitwitch wrote: »

DANG My head really has gone walkabout today .... I never even offered to put the kettle on or get the bikkie tin out.

(bustle, bustle, bustle) Here we are, refreshments coming right up.

Kw,
This may be a stupid question, I am a Yank after all, but what is a bikkie tin? Is that for making biscuits?

christopher___

Thank you for the welcome, everyone.

:^)

federica

jj5 wrote: »

Kw,
This may be a stupid question, I am a Yank after all, but what is a bikkie tin? Is that for making biscuits?

No, it's for storing biscuits in. Very often empty, not long after she's baked a new batch......

Knitwitch

Yup, our version of the cookie jar. Fresh oatie cookies with fruit just loaded up and needing eating!

Moon

Thanks for the welcome, in light of the Esangha - Watch closed thread, I wont be sticking around.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.

federica

*Further to my final comment on the closed thread*, I have had contact with those in question. They are not getting involved.
It is my suggestion to all here that you go and do likewise. *

Moon, I'm sorry you feel that you can't stay.
I wish you would.
Nobody here intends to involve themselves in any inter-forum tit-for-tat.
leave that to those who wish to perpetuate Samsara.
Include me out.

(*Now deleted).