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Killed a fly today - though for a reason- feeling bad
I killed a fly today - though for a reason feeling bad
is there anything i should do
still feeling bad...
is there anything i should do
still feeling bad...
0
Comments
My advice would be to make an effort to refrain from such actions in the future with the understanding that all living beings, whether big or small, simply desire to live their lives and be happy in their own way, according to their specific capacities. In essence, try to develop compassion for all living creatures and see where that takes you. Personally, I've found that it's made me a much kinder and happier person. Perhaps you will too.
Jason
I used to be a good guy, I used to move spiders outside even if it took 30 minutes, I was afraid of them and afraid of hurting them. There were very many- i live in the basement of a house etc, there would be at least 3 or 4 on the wall if I inspected it...at any given time,
then one day, like today , I got super pissed, i was in a really bad mood, and I saw one of these spiders, i really killed the fuckin shit out of him, I squashed him with pure rage and I liked it. I liked the fact that i wasn't putting up with their shit, anymore, not wasting time moving them and letting them make me afraid,
So then another spider,- and I murdered that one too, I found a flat swiffer like broom and made it my new weapon, only for killing spiders, it worked great, I started a count and posted it online for all to see, i got to about 13- or 14 spiders, but then i realized that everytime i saw a spider i got excited, not afraid, because I wanted to kill them.
so my question to you is, do you really feel bad? or did that fly get in ur face and u fuckin killed the mother fucker, its not ur fault he's too stupid to risk his life , RIGHT?
What I usually have trouble with then, however, is not knowing what to do next...
I don't consider them to be sentient beings, but harbingers of disease and filth.
If they're not sentient beings, no harm done.
If they are, I consider any future life has to be better than the one they're in, anyway.
Flies and mosquitoes are sentient beings. A sentient being is a being that breathes. The first precept is: The Pali word 'pana' means 'breath'. The precept is to abstain from destroying 'breathing things'.
The Buddha advised: If flies and mosquitoes are harbingers of disease and filth, then possiblity a right intention may save us from reaping the negative results of such karma.
However, given disease is rarely caused by flies and mosquitoes in developed countries, I personally cannot see any right intention that will save one from reaping the negative results of such karma.
Where I live, dengue fever is growing in its occurance. Killing mosquitoes however will not go far to prevent catching dengue fever given mosquitoes are always sharing our blood when we are not conscious of it (such as when we sleep).
Prevention can help, such as mosquito repellent & mosquito nets but killing will not help much.
With metta
DDhatu
_/\_
Possibly all beings experience fear and pain but do all beings suffer from attachment?
In my mind, real suffering is attachment via self-view rather than the discomfort of pain or fear per se.
Thus, is the mind of a fly or mosquito capable of 'self-view'? Do the minds of flies and mosquito concoct the views of "I", "me" and "mine".
Where is the problem of suffering from fear and pain?
Is the problem or dukkha in the mind of the mosquito or in the mind of the human being that fears and cannot endure the mosquito and thinks: "That mosquito is hurting & harming me"?
Personally, I doubt flies and mosquitos can concoct 'self-view' because they generall have little regard for their own welfare. If one waves a mosquito away, it keeps coming back. Or at a certain time of the year, there are large tough flies here which viciously bite and suck blood. I usually take a soft rubber thong and hit them when they are air bourn (so not to kill them). But they keep coming back.
With respect, to speculate if other sentient beings have attachment or not isn't a consideration for me in this particular matter of not causing them pain. It is reasonable to assume if one pulls the legs from an insect that it will most certainly feel pain from the injury and suffer from the loss of legs.
Have you ever heard an animal screaming in pain when it has been injured? I have, many times. When I was a child, there were many big metal traps set in woods and the countryside by landowners and farmers. Animals would rip their legs off trying to free themselves from the traps. I had never heard a sound from my pet rabbit as a child, but the sight and sound of a terribly injured broken and bleeding wild rabbit screaming in pain having suffered for hours in this way in a trap, remained in my memory for a very long time.
I have also heard and seen various species of bird and animal obviously feeling great pain and suffering when injured or dying.
So for myself, intellectual speculation in these matters comes secondary to doing my best not to harm other beings if it can be avoided.
Regarding your mention of the matter of flies and mosquitos having little regard for their own welfare and thus no self-view --- if you had seen drunken men attacking each other -sometimes with weapons- at pub closing time in a certain city area of the NE UK as I once did, you would probably wonder this about humans too!
_/\_
I will concede I should avoid speculations.
Your examples were indeed powerful, convincing and clear.
People hopefully.
I wouldn't get too broken up about a fly. My compassion range doesn't quite extend to insects. It's not like I take magnifying glasses or anything to them, but I mean I reserve my compassion for humans, dogs, and cats. Humans above all though.
Thanks for all your input, everyone.
I really do, sincerely appreciate your comments, insight, wisdom and clarifications.
The flies and mosquitoes are dispatched as an absolute last resort, not as a first one.
I try to shepherd flies out of the nearest available door/window, if I can. I use fly/mosquito repellents and screens as far as possible.
Mostly, I am successful. More often than not, I can avoid it.
But if it comes to the crunch - I'm afraid I don't lose any sleep over it.
That's interesting because Lama Phurbu Tashi said he's noticed that Americans will get very concerned about an injured dog or cat, but won't one bit about a million cattle being slaughtered for their dinner. It strikes me as a bit odd too.
I didn't say it was right.
I just mean it's not as bad as some stuff that happens.
Just this evening, a man in the car in front of Nick's, hit a cat that zoomed across the road. It was completely unavoidable, and the cat never stood a chance.
Apparently, the guy was very cut up about it, and felt dreadful, as would anyone else. Several people stopped, because it was a tragic mess.
But the guy's windscreen was covered in flies....
I doubt very much he felt the same way about them.....
I'm afraid I don't have the same equitable feeling for flies as sentient beings, as I do for other sentient creatures.
Like I said, I strive to avoid it as far as possible, but I'd rather kill a fly, than a cat. Certainly by accident, and definitely by design.....
I don't think anyone is saying the answers are simple ones or that hard choices don't need to be made at times. My post referred only to your statement that flies and spiders are not sentient beings. I disagreed with that.
I ran over a skunk once. It couldn't be helped and I certainly wasn't going to swerve to avoid it and risk my life by crashing the car. That would be idiotic. (I felt terrible for hours and I eventually had to give myself permission to let go of the guilt by asking myself how long I was going to force myself to suffer. It didn't honour the life or death of the skunk to suffer so I let the guilt go.)
But I still think flies and spiders are sentient beings.
Love,
Boo
Palzang
That's all I'm saying.
Palzang
Grasping and desire are fuelled by emotions because we crave and are attached.
A fly's instinct is to eat, fly, crap, and reproduce.
I doubt there is any emotional response there.
I really do.
their brain is the breadth of two hairs, and it's length is five hairs' breadths.
They do assimilate extraordinary levels of information, based on vibrational movements through the surrounding air. they are able to gauge where the swat is, and when it's going to strike. They assimilate all this information through air currents moving the hairs on their body. This way, they predict where the blow is aimed from.....
But sentient?
Sorry.
I don't buy it.
Just to clarify though, I managed to capture a massive bluebottle today - and a wasp yesterday - under a glass, and liberate them outside.
I do mean it when I say I try to avoid killing them at all costs.....
Palzang
(Palzang, this reminds me that I've been meaning to ask you about dualism, or non-dualism, and that sort of thing. I feel that my grasp of it is extremely tenuous. You mention it sometimes and when you do a little bell goes off in my head, the little bell that tells me to pay attention. If I thought about it myself for a while and came up with a good question or two, would it be cool to PM you?)
Non-dual means we have remembered that actually there is no separate self, that truly we are one with everything. In such a state of mind, what would we desire? Everything is already there. That's where true happiness derives from.
Palzang
You know, ever since I started practicing I've been feeling more and more connected to everything. It makes me feel full somehow. And relieved.
but I'm still wondering - with regard to the fly - where 'desire' is instinctive, and where it's grasping.....
In other words, when it wants to vomit on our food and eat it, and sit on a cowpat and gather cr*p - is it merely an instinct to survive, or is it desire?
Kill all you want to, if you want to. But understand that at one point or another, you'll accrue what's coming to you.
You ask their forgiveness?
you're kidding, right?
You have no qualms whatsoever about killing them - but you still ask their forgiveness?
How can they forgive you?
What would you do if they said 'no'?
I usually always agree with modernizing things, but this issue seems to deal a little bit more directly with how we are supposed to live. "Do not kill living things". We could modernize other things that don't have such a direct calling to be living the right way... like some of the rituals and things clothing that might turn a westerner off to the religion.
On a side note, what are we supposed to do about cars? I was trying to be mindful on my car ride home yesterday, only to realize I was annihilating massive amounts of insects on the way. Am I just supposed to not drive now?
I do think though Federica that there are far higher beings in the universe than we are who think the same way about us! Compared to them, our brain is the breadth of two hairs, our basic instincts to them seem rudimentary. Yet we are still seen as sentient and worthy of life by them. That's how I think when I see something as tiny as a fly. To us, being so much bigger and evolved they seem insignificant and barely worthy of thought. But how insignifcant we must likewise appear to far higher beings than us who thankfully don't act upon that!
well, when I meet one of them, I might argue that point with them.
until then........
I haven't had a problem with mosquito bites until recently. In the last two weeks I've been bitten many times on and around my feet and for some reason the itching and resultant scratching has caused my feet to swell alarmingly. The insects, and mosquitoes in particular, are more numerous this year as a result of all the rain we've been having. At the time they're occurring the bites burn and itch terribly, more so than they ever have before for whatever reasons. I've been losing my patience and smacking them when they bite, killing well over 30 or 40 this season. I've been watching my mind very closely during and after these mini massacres ('mini' is probably not the word the mosquitoes would use...) and there is definitely a negative impact on my mind. I feel more brutal and I find myself making excuses for killing them. Once I kill the first one, killing the next becomes easier. The more I kill them the less I see them as fellow sentient beings. There are more negative results but you get my point.
I just wanted to add that because it's been an issue for me lately.
Yes Brigid I can definitely relate to that feeling. I've killed quite a few mosquitoes this summer myself which I feel really bad about. Also though I wonder if, since we have a right to live and be happy as sentient beings too, perhaps what we are doing when we kill them is simply redirecting their life energy to a, well, less irritating existence??!!!
The insect may gain a more fortunate rebirth, but if that is believed, it follows that its killer will not.
Dengue Fever can be caught from a bite during the daytime - it happened to me. I was told this is not uncommon in India.
The behaviour tolerated on this site is awful - posts attacking sects, swearing and endorsing deliberate killing. Not a forum for me. Please carry on.
The simple rules on this site are to treat each other with respect and not "troll" the community. Cursing for the purpose of self-expression (not directed as invective) and discussing the sentient state and attitudes towards insects is well within bounds. Clearly a difference of opinion exists here and a civil discussion or debate on the topic is, in my opinion, healthy. What is more Buddhist than re-examination?
As far as attacking sects is concerned, I reserve final judgment on what an "attack" constitutes here. I like to think of myself as mostly impartial in this regard, but concede my own unavoidable biases. I simply do my best. Repeating personal experience and observation without resorting to name-calling has resulted in many balanced discussions of sects here over the years and has been a shining example of how our members conduct themselves. I don't think anyone can deny that dangerous or unsavory sects exist in any religion or philosophy and Buddhism is no different. Being able to distinguish between the desirable and undesirable teachings that exist is a great function of community.
I wish you well if that represents the end of your participation here, but we have few regrets in our methods of community management.
If you decide to run a site which trashes Right Speech it is in no way 'Buddhist'. Mods endorsing killing sentient beings is also hardly a 'shining example'. Each to their own. Be well. Goodbye.
I am sorry that Upasaka does not manage to understand that people are discussing something that genuinely troubles them. It is easy to say that "killing is killing" but it is much harder to know where to draw the line. When we come to the decision that we will practise harmlessness, we will inevitably be assailed by scruples and doubts. Because we take refuge in the Sangha, we will turn to our peers and our teachers to help and instruct us.
Palzang
To turn it on its head.
I am always reminded of the torment experienced by the monks, recounted in one of Lama Surya Das' books, whom when establishing a new monastery in the US, found it overrun with vermin. Despite all their efforts to preserve life, ultimately they had no choice but to take life. Surely these monks are the epitome of Buddhism, so it cannot be said that anyone who accepts killing is not a Buddhist, that view is far too simplistic.
I like Palzang's "on it's head" example, as usual, our pal Pal, has spread a little clarity. I choose to believe that while I may indeed reap some negative karma for eradicating some pest from my home, it is far outweighed by my love and consideration for all the animals and creatures that I come in contact with. The daily feeding of wild birds in my yard, and rescue of small creatures, spiders and insects from certain death on a regular basis, surely neutralize that.
A website cannot be a Buddhist. It's members can, but we accept non-Buddhists and Buddhists at any stage of their journey here as well.
Clearly, this place is indeed not for you since you have it all figured out.
The same could be said of abortions. Can you really make a rule that says never have an abortion because to do so will prevent a being from its opportunity to enjoy a precious human birth? Are there never situations in which an abortion might be the kindest alternative, when the needs of the mother might outweigh the needs of the unborn? How about in cases like the rape of a child, which is happening in the Congo even now? Not so easy to make that call!
So I think it is best not to jump on the fundamentalist bus that says thou shalt do this and thou shalt not do that. You really have to look at the big picture in every such decision.
Palzang
As far as I can see, the past few decades have brought about a real shift in our understanding of our place in the animal kingdom. It probably began with the "Save The Whales" campaign (1951) and has been emphasised by concepts such as Lovelock's Gaia hypothesis and the Deep Ecology movement. We no longer see ourselves as 'owners' but, more and more, as 'stewards'.
Oh really...? That's a definite, is it? Could you therefore explain how Angulimala managed it?
Point being?
Thanks, don't mind if we do.
Pop kettle on whilst you're out.....