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Indulge in violence? video game murder?
I want to know does it count to kill people in video games? count towards bad karma?
In video games...I seriously have probably killed... let me calculate roughly..everyday about 200 average, for the past 15 years...
15x365 = 5475 days, x 200 kills= 1 million 95 thousand...= 1,095,000 murders in my gaming career over lets say 100 games ..and that's games where you have to pull the trigger and aim yourself...... i forgot about the strategy war games where you kill like 2000 guys per session..
So lets say anywhere around 3-10 million murders in effigy... to average that for a figure..,
6,500,000 kills.....:eek: I'm a virtual mass murderer, terrorist...serial killer...
the alarming part...(lol as if only one part is alarming ) is most of the time I'm some kind of soldier..and I've never even thought it was wrong to complete my mission, "wasting noobs" and terrorists- even innocent bystanders for target practice...until now after i just recently murdered an entire opera house of like 120 people ...with a screwdriver...
now another alarming part is, I don't even play games that much/ that long each session, i do more than average, but I can imagine kids that play ALL day and night... i imagine they play 4-5 times more than me and thus beat my record of 6.5 million getting close to 32 million... so lemme break it down,
we got like 1 million gamers in Canada? 1/30 people...nah maybe 1/100 but lets say for fun.... 1 million...
the average each person..has gotta be lets say 1 million killings....
(in a gamers career of 10 or so years), (i started like at 9-10 years old I'm 24 now and always have enjoyed video games).. , the math is
gamers in just canada by my rough estimate have killed in effigy/virtually :
1,000,000,000,000.00...
i don't even know at first glance what that number is!!!... A TRILLION?!
considering the entire world, lets say 20 million people game... that's
20,000,000,000,000.00 , or 20 trillion poor virtual people getting MURDERED...in a decade lets say.. WTF :eek:...20 trillion murders have GOT TO BE BAD KARMA!!!! I wish i knew the actually stats...
In video games...I seriously have probably killed... let me calculate roughly..everyday about 200 average, for the past 15 years...
15x365 = 5475 days, x 200 kills= 1 million 95 thousand...= 1,095,000 murders in my gaming career over lets say 100 games ..and that's games where you have to pull the trigger and aim yourself...... i forgot about the strategy war games where you kill like 2000 guys per session..
So lets say anywhere around 3-10 million murders in effigy... to average that for a figure..,
6,500,000 kills.....:eek: I'm a virtual mass murderer, terrorist...serial killer...
the alarming part...(lol as if only one part is alarming ) is most of the time I'm some kind of soldier..and I've never even thought it was wrong to complete my mission, "wasting noobs" and terrorists- even innocent bystanders for target practice...until now after i just recently murdered an entire opera house of like 120 people ...with a screwdriver...
now another alarming part is, I don't even play games that much/ that long each session, i do more than average, but I can imagine kids that play ALL day and night... i imagine they play 4-5 times more than me and thus beat my record of 6.5 million getting close to 32 million... so lemme break it down,
we got like 1 million gamers in Canada? 1/30 people...nah maybe 1/100 but lets say for fun.... 1 million...
the average each person..has gotta be lets say 1 million killings....
(in a gamers career of 10 or so years), (i started like at 9-10 years old I'm 24 now and always have enjoyed video games).. , the math is
gamers in just canada by my rough estimate have killed in effigy/virtually :
1,000,000,000,000.00...
i don't even know at first glance what that number is!!!... A TRILLION?!
considering the entire world, lets say 20 million people game... that's
20,000,000,000,000.00 , or 20 trillion poor virtual people getting MURDERED...in a decade lets say.. WTF :eek:...20 trillion murders have GOT TO BE BAD KARMA!!!! I wish i knew the actually stats...
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Comments
so wow, lets say out of those 117 mil, 20 mil have continued to play, for like the past 10 years counting?, so wtf = 20 trillion kills for usa alone ! I wonder about the WORLD then...probably another 5-10 trillion for the rest of the world...
so 30 trillion divided by earths population 6billion , = each person on earth has 5000 kills.... LOL?! wtf it must be late this can't make sense..
This type of game might be said help people to get rid of any tension and aggression...but on the other hand its not nice when its showing mindless acts of violence..and it is very possible that small children might then think that violence is ok and just a game.
It's certainly the case that there seems to be a lot of bullying, aggression and violence happening between schoolchildren of all ages these days -and they do play violent video games frequently. Certainly in my own experience as a teacher I think what I've seen in recent years in terms of pupil to pupil aggression is a lot worse than when I was at school myself.
There are other games which require skill and yet don't portray harming or killing.
.
Then no.
i can only have satisfaction imagining that i'm actually pulling off perfect murders..beautiful shots, stunning escapes, etc etc....the more immersed I get the more fun it is..you know like a horror movie can only be enjoyed if you believe in it or put yourself into it...i mean like empathy..
game characters are like a voodoo doll. its just a doll, but there is INTENT when u stab it in the eye with a needle, you are imagining something else...or else it's no fun...
that's why i think that it matters...
another thing, these mindless game characters that get killed, they are a set of programmed intelligences represented by blended light....
so are we..... they aren't sentient i guess is the only difference, so is that the criteria for killing? it stops at sentient beings, we can kill everything else?
i'm not even sure we ARE SENTIENT.
Everything we think and everything we do has an effect on our minds.
I think you are looking way too deeply into this, my friend
yeah seriously....
I remember when i got Grand Theft Auto 3. My parents loved me. I was so happy!
Its all in your mind, if you see it as real people or "practice" then no. It's not cool.
Not that I advocate GTA for everyone -violent games need to be played with awareness, if at all. They may not create bad karma but they can set a bad example to those of low morals and intelligence.
I'm running to the side now, dust and debris kicked up as the vehicles weapon tears craters in everything it hits. I dive into a shattered building only to find that it is occupied by an enemy squad. I unload my assault rifle from the hip in their direction and manage to take out two of them. My rifle clicks, signaling that I am out of rounds. They are firing back at me now, my vision blurring as the bullets crack above my head. I struggle to pull out my pistol and aim down the sights. The gun jumps and spits fire as I open up, unable to do any precise shooting I stick to firing in the general direction of their muzzle flashes as I backpedal out the door.
By the time I make it back out the vehicle is still sitting there, but it is utterly destroyed, being nothing more than wreckage to seek cover behind. I see what took it out however, as a friendly APC wheels around a corner and deposits a few team mates before taking off, it's LMG firing widely at the enemies still in the building I just left. I turn around and chuck a grenade in the window. As I am looking up to do this I see an enemy Apache in the air, just beginning its strafing run on us. We're trapped in the street, perfectly lined up with no hope of escape. I reload my assault rifle and fire at the helicopter, hoping by some miracle one of my bullets manages to pierce the cockpit and kill the pilot.
The rockets rain down, crippling the vehicle and killing everyone including me that was standing outside of it. As I lay dying I see the boots of enemy soldiers run past and hear the growl of an enemy tank moving towards the battle I was hoping to make it to. I know that I was too late, that I will not make it in time to save my friends.
DING respawn and it happens all over again.
In short - Video games are FUN. I am not playing them going "yes! I have to KILL THESE PEOPLE" No, I am thinking "I want to win this game!" But win or lose, I always have fun and enjoy myself. So where's the harm?
Look into why video games make you angry - and why you played them in the first place. The anger is from your own mind - the game is, as you point out, a bunch of pixels.
The reaction of anger is not restricted to video games. It's an anger at not winning, feeling you weren't fairly treated, taking something too seriously based on ideas of self-image. It often happens in a competitive situation. Have you ever watched John Mcenroe playing tennis?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJi_oc7t10
I play video games sometimes because I like solving puzzles and enjoy exploring the imaginary worlds created by talented designers and artists. For me, video games are preferable to movies because we are able to explore the ideas within them interactively, rather than passively watching. I admit, games need to offer more varied experiences and more thoughtful stories, but this will happen gradually to this still young industry.
Here's one of my favorite games, Ico, which is incredibly atmospheric and dreamlike.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg6nlC2gYFA
Of course, spending time meditating or reading Dharma is time spent in the best way.
However, I think even meditation can fatigue us if we pursue it too obsessively - and we also may think meditation is something we can only do in solitude sitting cross-legged.
We could open up our experience by playing games mindfully - watching our own attachments to things that happen in the game, seeing how the virtual world affects our mind.
In this way, games are also just a tool to increase awareness.
To me, saying "games are unskillful" or "games produce bad karma" is as nonsensical as saying the same thing about books or films.
Indeed, it is possible to produce negative mental states reading and identifying with characters in a sadistic crime thriller, or by watching a horror movie. This does not mean books or films are bad in themselves.
We can rightly criticize some games for being mindless and violent but this does not negate the entire medium.
In fact, I would go so far as to say games offer a fertile new ground for exposition of the Dharma, through interactive experiences.
I haven't studied psychological patterns, and I'm not sure statistics prove anything, and I'm further certain that it takes infinitely much larger abilities to be able to transfer fantasy to fact and actually find the guts/chutzpah and nerve to pull the trigger, in real life....
A huge proportion of people faced with that option would in all probability chicken out.
but that's not my point.
My question is, what kind of mindset finds it pleasurable and acceptable to do that?
I'm really not having a dig. I'm just asking those who say "Well, it's only a game and I wouldn't ever really do it, IRL...."
Why do it at all?
What part of your mentality does blowing a truck full of virtual soldiers, nourish?
If I was presented with the opportunity IRL, I would not "chicken out" I would just refuse to kill them, because *gasp* get this -killing is wrong-
You ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, a majority of gamers do not connect 2D and 3D? They they see it as just a game, and like the challenge and the competitiveness? No, of course not. In your view, a person that has fun popping off a headshot in a video game is just a murderer in training, hm?
I'm so tired of this bullshit argument against video games. Never once have I ever met a gamer that actually connects the virtual world with the real one in such a way. Are there dangerous neurotic people playing video games? oh yes without a doubt. But those people were dangerous and neurotic anyhow, video games didn't make them become so.
Of course as with everything there are exceptions, and I am certain that somewhere out there, some idiot saw something happen on a video game and then decided it was a good idea to pull it off in the real world. But I'm just going to take a shot in the dark and say they were mentally unstable anyway.
Please refrain from offending me in such a manner in the future. I do not like being called a killer, those are fighting words.
I didn't call you anything of the kind.
you've taken this in completely the wrong vein.
The basic question i posed at the end, was this: that's what I'm curious about.
I don't know if you know this, but the forum founder makes this kind of past time his business, and i count him as a very close friend.
If your post had been addressed at any other member, i would have taken umbrage on their behalf, and deleted it, because frankly, the vehemence if your response is surprising and frankly, unwarranted.
I'd hate to think that my post - receiving your response as it does - actually proves a point....?
Watch your tone please, and mind how you respond to members.
As to your question, it is not supposed to nourish any part of the brain. When I blow up a truck full of soldiers, I do not see it as killing a bunch of people. I see it as scoring a bunch of points for my team so that we can win. I do not see how video games differ from sports in this regard, aside from the vastly different amount of physical work involved.
I think that much of the problem comes from the fact that I am of the generation that grew up with the first computer games and I am only just in my forties, as my generation grow old and die off these games will become just another part of the media and not the sewer-pipes of depravity that the Daily Mail likes to inform us about.
That said, I agree that videogames have become extremely violent, and also politicised, with a disturbing number currently about being a hi-tech super soldier killing hordes of nameless brown or black people in poor countries. Also boring.
Normally I'm quite successful at expressing myself verbally.
But I cannot bring myself to believe that the Buddha would think it a good, wholesome or constructive pastime to pursue, and I personally cannot understand, genuinely how anyone finds pleasure in indulging in a game where you score points by achieving certain levels, and the only way you can achieve those levels is through combat and 'killing' opponents.
I wasn't saying, as i've been accused of doing, that "I believe someone who pulls a trigger in a video game is more likely to do so in real life." I never said that.
What I said was, There it is. in bold. The mistaken terminology.
I don't mean mind-set. Mind-set is different to 'brain'.
Ok, that's my bad.
What I was attempting to say, is that the same locations in the brain are accessed in both scenarios, albeit for those playing Games, the stimulation to those neurons is very much decreased. but it must be the same area of the brain.
As I have said, and so have many others, carrying out such an act is unthinkable to everyone here. I'm not accusing anyone here of being a closet murderer and I resent the implication that I have.
I don't play these games, i don't like them, and avoid watching, listening or reading anything which contains material of violence or killing.
I'm just curious as to why other Buddhists feel differently.
Take a slightly more interactive game - such as chess say - chess also concerns strategy and it's a zero sum game - arguably the subject matter is war though this is somewhat abstract - the aim of the game appears to be the enjoyment of or the participation in the zero sum activity - the subject matter is less of an issue.
The point I'm driving at is that the motivation is towards the zero sum (or non-zero sum)activity in the context of the subject matter rather than to the subject matter itself.
Thus on one level, computer games of any genre are harmless as they are fictional - but on the other hand, should society as a whole try to move away from zero sum activity? even if it is accepted as a matter of principle first.
On another level, computer games habituate society to certain things that may at first be abhorrent but that said, they reflect the reality of society - should media be censored as such?
On balance in my mind, I think if youre happy that gaming (zero or nonzero) is an indulgance in itself worth indulging in to pass the time, then the next step of challenging virtual subject matter may be a step too far as art by definition steps outside the boundaries of real life and I think should be allowed to do so in order to explore concepts.
A question that jumps at me here is whether war itself should happen - I play battlefield 3 and enjoy the gaming experience, online comradery, empty achievements etc - it reinforces in me that war is nothing to aspire towards... in the game I am indulging in problem solving and competition rather than violence - though I accept that not everyone thinks like me and computer games no doubt influence society in a not wholly wholesome manner... still - I parked my T90 at the mouth of the alley in Seine crossing and dropped 19 as they tried rushing up the stairs...
The problem isn't so much with me, but with my oldest child. He is almost 16, and while he considers himself Buddhist I have a hard time understanding how he can equate listening to some of the music he does, with his choice in religion, along with his intense desire to join the military. Thankfully he is not medically fit to do so, lol, I just don't understand his thought process. He is also on the autism scale (but very functional on his own) and that makes understanding his world very different compared to other people. He chooses to play games such as Call of Duty, GTA, etc and I worry how it affects him, although it does not seem to. He is very kind-hearted, he's a good person and no one has ever had a bad word to say about him. Because of the games, and his age, I am the one who ultimately gives him permission to play them, and that is the part I struggle with most. If I should be disallowing him to play until he is old enough to buy them himself.
One thing that has helped, both for me in the past and for him, is to set a limit ahead of time of how much he's allowed to engaged in those activities. He's not allowed to waste entire days playing, he is only allowed to play 1-2 hours a day. Because of the limit, he finds better things to do with his time, but still gets to enjoy the games he likes. I also do not allow him to play online.
I do think in certain people, violent games can fuel bad feelings in them. Instead of just looking at the game as entertainment, they lose themselves in what they wish was their reality-where they wish they were the best at something, where they wish they were gaining achievements. Their whole lives revolve around their games. I know people who work just to pay for their gaming habits (these are mid 30s adults, not young people), they avoid all social situations in favor of their never-met online friends, all because they can choose who to be instead of facing who they are. In those cases, I do think certain games can be harmful to them.
I can see where @federica is coming from regarding the locations of brain activity during certain activities, but I would caution that our understanding of brain activity is still rather primitive. Ultimately, I think we should ask ourselves does this activity harm anyone, including the one playing? If it furthers our delusions of self through greed, animosity etc, then perhaps they are harming us. If the games are just seen as another art form that reflects our current world, then perhaps they aren't. Either way they are certainly a distraction which takes up time that could be used for either helping ourselves and others.
I would extend the question to "violent" sports (football, rugby, lacrosse, etc) as well. Is this not a transference of violence to an arena with certain rules to try and prevent death? What about life? Is it not a violent "game" we are trying to win? Some (most in the developed world), whether they want to admit it or not, have benefited from violence towards others.
The problem is when people are convinced by propaganda that real combat is this way; I read some of the diaries of the 1st World War poet Wilfred Owen, and clearly, before he saw the reality, he envisaged war as being something like this game, indoctrinated as he was by glorious Greek sagas and imperialist mythmaking. His thinking was quite typical for the time, but reading it now, it seems like psychosis.
I do worry that games like Call Of Duty are essentially doing something similar, as they emphasise professionalism, patriotism, camaraderie and heroism in real world situations, current wars, which in reality are a lot messier. Fighting current wars in video games is something I'm not quite comfortable with.
http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html
You have a point about playing mindfully before I quit gaming I managed it a couple of times and was a much better player for it.
As violence and conflict in other forms of fiction well I don't read fiction anymore it seems like time I could put to use learning something useful, I also don;t watch TV except for the odd brit political satire or occasional other comedy show. But before this I was a big fan of action movies and adventure fiction.
http://www.soc.iastate.edu/sapp/VideoGames1.pdf
This particular one is a meta-analysis which is usually a very high level of evidence: i've not read the details but it seems sound. There is plenty of other papers that agree too.
Sorry if this fact offends. I play these games too, if that makes a difference.
Perhaps it is more skillful to be able to watch a movie or play a game with emotional detachment than it is to be repulsed by it because it offends our own judgement. Didn't the Buddha warn of the dangers of both attachment and aversion?
The key point I think is being aware of whatever activity you are engaged in and checking your emotional responses to it.
I'd offer the case that games provide a good testing ground for us to explore our own biased views. By allowing us to try out behavior which we could never otherwise experience (without causing serious negative karma) we can have a taste of another life, even a hellish one. That could be a valuable lesson if we are attentive enough.
I played Grand Theft Auto when I was younger and yes, I did kill virtual bystanders - but I'm glad to say that I have never tried to do this in real life. In the game world, everything is appearance and I realized that while playing nobody suffered from my actions, which were in fact empty. Had I derived a sadistic pleasure from killing virtual characters that would have indicated a psychological problem. My enjoyment came from the complete freedom the game designers allowed the player, not from imagining that I was hurting people.
For me, the pleasure of the game was in exploring the wonderfully constructed environment and defeating the missions set by the designers to forward the narrative - Oh, and just driving and listening to the radio (in real life, I don't have a car and can't drive).
Games, being virtual worlds devoid of inherent existence, parallel what the Buddha said about the characteristics of life - emptiness and non-self. So I think to dismiss them out of hand is most likely something done through prejudice rather than awareness.
I don't think anybody claimed games have no effect on us. Everything has an effect on us - unless we are enlightened. The issue is whether actions performed in games are a cause of negative karma.
I think we need some perspective on this issue though. Are games such a bane to society?
In our society we are conditioned to accept real violence as part of normal life, while being told to frown upon depictions of fantasy violence.
The media will attack a violent game like Grand Theft Auto, yet remain strangely accepting when real bombs fall, killing indiscriminately.
We frown on the teenager who plays 'violent' games alone at home but we applaud the upstanding young man who becomes a professional murderer by joining the army.
Of course the sales pitch is one of 'serving one's country' etc.
Is this not hypocritical?
Some research would indicate this to be the case. the UK is now, in may circles, being referred to as a 'mini USA' because of the incalculable influence American culture, across the spectrum, has had on society here...
We have gangland warfare and inner-city conflicts, and if you were to take cross-section of the youth in this country, you would be hard put to tell any difference - including when they open their mouths. no we're not. We're constantly bombarded with media images and stories of tragedy and violence, but accepting it is not the same as approving of it. I'd like to see data to back this up. As already said, knowing about it neither implies acceptance or approval. this arguement is both deeply flawed and actually, a little insulting to those who are in the military, and ultimately, responsible for making sure the life you have, remains safe and free i wonder how many of those young men playing violent games are already in the military? Or put it another way, do you suppose no member of the armed forces plays those games too?
I've been blasted on this thread for posting something someone deemed deeply insulting.
I could have phrased my post better.
I hate to say it, but so could you.
In my circles, I tend to see that acceptance (for lack of a better word at this time) for larger world issues is indeed in place. It's not that they are ok with it, but they have shrugged it off as something that happens that they cannot control. However, when it comes to things that are influencing the youth, people have a lot to say. Youth in the US are very much viewed as trouble makers, as worthless time wasters, as a disrespectful lot, and people look for anything they can find to uphold those beliefs that they hold about younger generations. My son is 15, I see the attitude about kids his age all the time. There is little benefit of the doubt given, it is up to the kid to prove they are not like all the other "teen hoodlums." In the US at least, there is a great amount is disrespect directed towards youth from the general public. That's what I see come out when I see comments about how video games affect youth.