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Bad language
Guys,
What are your thoughts...
I swear at times like most people. But I find it really disrespectful and moreover, inappropriate, when I see it on these pages.
I noticed bad language is becoming more and more common on these threads.
Am I a hypocrite, or a snob or being holier than thou?
I wanted to pipe up about it. It's starting to make me uncomfortable.
Thanks for your feedback.
What are your thoughts...
I swear at times like most people. But I find it really disrespectful and moreover, inappropriate, when I see it on these pages.
I noticed bad language is becoming more and more common on these threads.
Am I a hypocrite, or a snob or being holier than thou?
I wanted to pipe up about it. It's starting to make me uncomfortable.
Thanks for your feedback.
0
Comments
Sites like this potentially have group mentality, where people fall into a certain mind set and thus become very intolerant, especially in the name of 'love' and 'tolerance'.
This kind of hypocrisy is often amusing to watch, to see actually how little tolerance people have.
In brief, most Buddhist internet sites are renowned for their lack of tolerance and inability to cope with different viewpoints.
No, you are not! Furthermore, I wouldn't trust the word of anyone who spells hypocrisy as if it were a democracy! You seem to be talking about having the expectation of people putting their best foot forward on public forums. What in tarnation is wrong with that? Now, if you were to be swearing like a drunken pirate whilst doing, I'm not so sure (So watch it, kiddo!).
Hurtful language offends. I work in nursing and the work is hard enough. But when someone's got a movie on and you hear "f---" three times every ten seconds, it's just too much. It affects me adversely, worsens the quality of care I give and makes therapeutic communication almost impossible.
However, there are two issues involved here. You say you swear like everybody else. Well I do too, but not when I am around others. It's the hurtfulness these words cause others and the disruption of the peace that's the culprit. We who live in the world all need places to vent and to scream, as it were.
So it's not the words themselves that are bad, it's the unleashing of them in a public place or a shared living space that makes them objectionable. If you're around people whom you like and say these words in a nonviolent or inoffensive manner, I can see no intrinsic harm there, either.
However, using bad language in a public forum, such as ours is, is inappropriate and thoughtlessly provocative. However, that said, sometimes people are unawares because they are immersed in such words. Our job then would be gently to inform them to omit such words.
Sorry about the long answer, but I wanted to say that you are not alone.
The notion of 'provocative' is essential for us to comprehend, given it is self-generated. The Buddha advised strongly we learn the ability to manage our sense impressions. This is very basic and the most compassionate & trustworthy advice that can be given & received.
It is important to trust the Dhamma and use it as a mirror for our own mental reactions.
If we cannot manage what we read on the internet, how will we manage in our jobs or relationships?
I understand the importance of right speech and all, but I also realize that words are just words. As Chandrakirti allegedly said in one of his works, "Words are not policemen on the prowl. We are not subject to their independent authority. They take their meaning from the intention of the person speaking."
Is simply using a "swear" word disrespectful if no disrespect is intended? I don't think so, but that's just me.
Jason
Can we please remember here where swear words come from? They usually refer to sexual acts or sexual parts of a male or female. Who wants to hear that umpteen times a day.
Also I am aware my reactions to things are my responsibility but is this a society of individuals or does someone actually take care of the whole?
What we use to emphasise our language suggest what is, consciously or unconsciously, deemed 'sacred' within current cultural context. It is also a 'movable feast', changing from generation to generation.
I'm a bit disappointed in you...sorry, I am I guess a swearer..
I could write a whole essay on this but to sum it up, in my opinion...
Aversion is for the feeble minded.
We are mostly all guilty of it though.. I've seen and heard some harsh ugly things in my life....and swearing is not even close to the list..
Do a tour in Afghanistan or Iraq. (I haven't, just an example)...and when and IF you come back, tell me if swearing bothers you.
Someone is offended, and it's their fault.
It's going to come to the point where someone wielding a knife is blameless if he cuts somebody, because the victim shouldn't have been there....
I loathe bad language.
It's unnecessary, superfluous, oftentimes unacceptable and insolent.
People who swear seem to be arrogantly presumptuous that it's all part of language and therefore perfectly ok, so get over it.
It's not.
Films are often advertised as containing bad language, so there does seem to be a public and social awareness of what is comfortably acceptable, and what isn't.
I am happy to admit I have edited posts containing unnecessary swearwords.
I shall continue doing so.
THis reminds me of the time when somebody advised me I was "Too honest for my own good, and saw the goodness in everyone."
Like that's a vice.
It's not me who's too honest. It's others who were circumspect with their own honesty.... But I got criticism for it..... Give me a break.
Whatever happened to 'Right Speech'? being responsible for what you say is the crux here, but expression and means of communication are very much - in my opinion - just as pertinent.
And I would like to point out that someone not too far away in this thread took great exception to a presumed insult, even after the so-called offender had apologised, and wouldn't let the matter drop.
So, to paraphrase, let's not discuss splinters whilst planks are still evident, ok?
(And it's nothing to do with viewpoints. It's everything to do with foul language.)
Sara, I am completely sympathetic and understand where you are coming from.
Count on me to be vigilant and act where I deem necessary.
(lol i'm so getting banned
From the perspective of Buddhist practice, that would be a very good attitude for an individual to take towards the actions of others. My teacher sometimes says "I used to worry about responsibility, now I just work on the assumption that I'm responsible for everything in the world. It's much simpler that way."
As you say, right speech is a matter of personal responsibility. There'll be no reduction in the hostility in the world from disapproving speeches and turning away from offensive speech. Fundamentally, that's childish behavior because it ignores an obvious chain of cause and effect: you push on someone, they'll push back. There might be a slight reduction in the world of your experience, if you have the capacity to suppress offensive speech, but most of the time, none of us have that option. And then you're indulging in a practice of willful ignorance of something which is causing you pain, and that always leads to more pain down the road.
Also, right speech is a result of practice, not the practice itself. See the morality section of the Brahmajala sutra, for instance:
What I take from this is that moral behavior is an ancillary effect of Buddhist practice, not an end in itself.
Seriously though, our position in moderating the site is that no one can curse at other people, attack people, or generally be jerks. Beyond that, it's up to you all to set whatever tone you are comfortable with.
You and me both, buddy.
I understand the need to let off steam in some situations and ive nothing against that... although I do think theres a lot to be said for regular meditation and / or a substantial dose of self control..
I think theres nothing wrong with letting out a word or two if youve dropped something on your toe - that kind of thing ... but I think that the F words and their buddies that we are familiar with are overly graphic, unneccesary and often quite intimidating...
I think that people hear these words so often that they forget what they actually mean, and if you sit down and remember the meaning of these words, then you also remember how ugly and disgusting they are...
I think also that in situations like arguments etc these words dont do anything but aggravate the situation and even take it to a level it wasnt at before... when the words are aimed at people they are hurtfull and insulting and perpetuate whatever bad situation theyve been said in... so personally i try not to use them... and if i hear kids t/ adults urning the air blue within my ear shot in a public place ill ask them to either turn it down or stop... there is enough ugliness in this world without them adding to it just to look cool or tough...
and youd be surprised how many people often dont realise they are doing it... ive had some of the most threatening looking kids apologise and look totally embarressed when i ask them to stop swearing - so i guess that culture is kind of partly to blame for what i consider to be a definate rise in bad and inconsiderate language...
I dont know about any one else but i do have ''substitute'' words that i use ... and being of mixed heritage and multi lingual means i can pick and choose my words from several languages
my top few at the moment are
-Bhagavan ( like the bhagavad gita -kinda means - Oh god ! )
- Krishna - although im trying to stop saying this outside of the temple i go to cos non indian people keep thinking im just sneeszing really loud and its a bit embarrassing
- Basz Meg - hungarian for - to the bottom !!( basz/ bass) but hungarian is quite gutteral and again - lots of strange looks if you say this one outside of Hungary
-Istenem - oh my god
- Zever - Hebrew for garbage ... whenever something is rubbish
- Charah - a less than delicate hebrew word for Poo
Cool words but lots of strange looks if you say them in public in the UK... any one else use substitute swear words ??
I grew up in a family and area where swearing was the norm, but that's not the reason I use profanity. I can be as proper and as articulate as the next person, but I chose to use profanity for two main reason: (1) the use of profanity helps to stress certain points, emotions, etc. and (2) I find the taboo against using certain words ridiculous (unless, of course, the word itself has become so offensive that its use automatically attacks or insults a group or individual directly).
I understand that others feel differently, and that's why I don't use profanity all the time, but I think that people should be free to express themselves as they see fit. I'm a very strong proponent of free speech, and while I agree with Matt that no one should "curse at other people, attack people, or generally be jerks," I'm quite liberal when it comes to the general use of profanity.
Sure, but what's wrong with sex or sexual organs?
I think it's a two-way street. We not only have a responsible when it comes to our reactions to things but to how we act towards others as well. That's why I think intention is the most important factor and why I don't think simply using a "swear" word is disrespectful when no disrespect is intended. Saying ___ as a general comment and calling someone a ___ are two entirely different things in my book.
I'm sorry if my occasional use of profanity offends you, but at the same time, I'm not going to censor myself in every thread out of fear that I might possibly offend somebody. If I have to tiptoe through life trying not to offend somebody by what I say or think, well, that's not much of a life and I might as well live in a cave.
Jason
Am I really that bad?
In my honest opinion, if certain words offend you, that is your problem. I know that sounds overly harsh.
Also, I think replacing curses with words like "shoot" or "darn" is our way of still using a verbal outlet (these words have the same roots as their offensive counterparts), while coming off as socially acceptable. Socially. Acceptable. I could right a whole essay on what those two words mean. In short, I have a hard time seeing that there is anything more than cultural habit that makes one word more acceptable than another. So our offense is not "natural" but "built in" and can be changed if we so desire. Or ignored in this situation or that.
Let me backpedal now, for just a moment. I let the curses fly. I am aware of people's sensitivities on the matter, and act in an accommodating manner most of the time. However, I am not above dropping a bomb for any number of reasons - some of them mundane and some of them high-fallutin'. I'd be happy to explain my perspective in more detail if anyone is interested, but it's just my perspective - not Truth. This is a community, but we don't make decisions together. Partly, we are here learning about each other and different views.
( :bowdown: I pray to thee my holy mistress, smite not your brother and edith not what he posteth of truths and revelations)
People might take offence at that, but is it wrong to say it?
I think that those who go back and clean up their bad spelling after it has been pointed out on the following thread without saying anything about it are obviously bothered by poor language. Bad language doesn't bother them, though? That looks kinda incongruous to me.
At the time my post, #3, was made we had a mispelling:
I really despise the arrogance of people who seem to think they can coast through life without hurting others simply by saying whatever pops into their heads at any given time. That is simply not true. Maybe I'm a bit hypersensitive to it in nursing, with our stress on therapeutic communication —or maybe it's just living in the South where manners are everything. Hypersensitive or not, though, I could not keep a job if I were to cuss at work. I know plenty of people up north in the same situation, too.
If words are hostile and cutting they do effect real harm. A quiet word is always better, except when there is an enemy at the gate.
Life is to be cultivated with proper seeds; but the bombs that cuss words are can only serve to destroy the trellises on which the buds would grow. The glory of the garden blooms from the vine which attaches to the trellises, which branch out new, happy, peaceable pieces of paradise. I suggest that cursing is responsible for countless wasted opportunities for good in this world.
Do you feel better for being the champion of the needy?
Its a balance, you shouldn't do something you know will likey cause suffering, but if you do without any intention keep in mind the origination of the it is just as much the cause.
Yes, it does sound overly harsh to me, but apart from that, it's avoiding taking responsibility for your own actions. Personally, I know that some people find sexual swear words upsetting, sometimes threatening. Since I don't know who these "some people" are, I avoid swearing in front of all other people.
Let's just say I take down my trousers and "moon" at you and your friends, and some of you are shocked or offended. But that's your problem, right? Or I call you a (insert racist name here). That's your problem too, obviously.
There's plenty of opportunity for us to upset others in genuine error, why do an action deliberately and repeatedly when you know it has a real possibility of harm?
Wasn't it Shantideva who said you can't find enough leather to cover the whole world, but you can cover the soles of your own shoes?
1. Championing the needy is a good cause with no shame in it. If we all did that, the world would be a much better place (and our karma would improve greatly). You're implying that looking out for needy folks is weedy or something.
2. That last half sentence isn't even English. What do you mean? If you're saying it's OK swearing if your intention is good, I say that's a cop-out, since it's well-known that lots of people dislike hearing swearing. I could "accidentally" cut your finger off then say "Oh, but I intended for you to move your hand out of the way".
Of course it is, but it's the why you do it that counts. Since you seem to have taken offence it might be an attribute you are proud of and identify with. Worth considering.
Your obviously fine with insulting people if you deem it ok.
No and you know thats not what I meant, in general, I don't go out of my way to harm people with words or actions. I know what swearing is, and I dont do it when anybody can be offended. But I can, just like you, say things that are offencive, but are perfectly fine within the culture we come from.
Let of your steam at somebody else.
Yeah, because using profanity is just like cutting off a person's finger.
Firstly, I haven't taken offence with anything at all on this forum, least of all your post. Secondly, whatever little amount I may have done for needy people, it is nowhere near enough, and I'd guess that applies for everyone else on here. I was certainly not boasting much less proud.
I have insulted no one just stated a fact: the paragraph I referred to was difficult to understand because the last part - "but if you do without any intention keep in mind the origination of the it is just as much the cause" - did not make sense. Maybe it would help if you could say what you meant to say now, and I'll have another stab at it?
That's just it - I didn't know what you meant at all, so I had a go at guessing. As it turned out, my guess was wrong - for which I apologise.
I wasn't suggesting in any way that you would - you seem well-meaning. My point was that SOME people act as if they don't care either way. That was not directed at you or anyone personally. I think Nirvana was saying something similar.
I have no steam; I was in no way getting angry or uptight. I was simply disputing the point you made - in particular you seemed to be making an ad hominem attack on Nirvana with your "championing the needy" remark, and you did much the same to me when you suggested I was exhibiting pride for helping needy causes.
Neither of these attacks from you address the point of the thread, which is to debate bad language and its acceptability or otherwise on this forum/within Buddhism/in life.
/TOPIC
You got me
I must say, DD, that you've lost me here 900,000 percent. So then, the only important people in the world just happen to be Buddhist, and we can just ignore all the rest? Their hurt is, after all, self-generated by their not coming to the absolute truth of Buddhism, one might suggest?
Do only certain ascetic Buddhists matter?
Who's not managing what is on the internet? One can ignore whatever one chooses. The pertinent question is HOW will we manage in our jobs and relationships. If I cuss at work, I'm fired. If my family or friends start cussing at me, I'm outta there; if they persist, the relationship is terminated. Period. Life is just too short for that. Period.
It does not upset me to see one isolated vulgar word on this site, but unless it's funny as in Jinzang's #27 above, it detracts more than adds. However, in such situations the usage is targeted towards a select group of interested people. That is so much different than diseminating it broadly and casually so as to fall on the ears of a person who is offended by them. My grandmother would cry if she heard the word, "sh__," and there are lots of people who really crave pure speech. Why are their values unimporant? Would it be such a huge sacrifice for a gentleman or gentlewoman to refrain from such things?
Also, why is the third of the Noble Eight Paths being dismantled so as not to include gentleness, warmth, generosity of purpose, and humility?
Well you insulted me, but I suppose because think you didn't, that you didn't right?
Regardless of what you think, this proves my point. You can insult people (it's not that distinguished from swearing, which was my point) without knowing it.
So if you do it, while taking taking reasonable care and attention the understanding of the origination can help you understand other people rather then getting in to the idea of personalising there offence.
Writing isnt the easiest thing for me. Hope you felt better after making a big deal of it.
I use and highly appreciate the use of offensive language and other obscene whatnots in art. The compost heap fertilizes the flower. We can learn a lot from what we find vulgar and offensive. We can even grow from it.
The line between art and life is a little vague for me, so now is the part where I bow out of the conversation. At least for now.
This. Words in themselves are harmless, it's all in how the word is used that causes harm. And face it, the only reason why anyone considers the word "fuck" offensive is because we've been socially conditioned to think of it as offensive.
Who says they are? I don't find them acceptable, period.
It sounds precisely as you intend.
I cause you offence?
I really don't care.
So simply because they're socially unacceptable, that's not a valid enough reason to stop using them?
It's always everyone else's fault, isn't it?
Responsibility cuts both ways.
As a good friend of mine states, 'Freedom of Speech ends when the fist hits the nose'.
Permit me, then, every time I feel offended by speech you use, to metaphorically strike your nose with my fist, and suspend your account for 5 days.
And if you find that offensive, take it up with society.
Hiding behind Buddhist diatribe and doesn't cut it, because not all of Society, is Buddhist.
I think you'll find.....
I'm not sure that this is true. Words carry 'baggage'. They often both conceal and reveal deeper structures. I know that this thread is about the use of profanity and obscene words but I can't let a bald statement like this pass. Racist or sexist language reveal attitudes which are unacceptable to many people, and some profanity is, of its very nature, racist or sexist abuse.
Choosing our language with care is integral to a respectful attitude one to another. the words that we use can help us, as well, confront our own underlying and unacknowledged prejudices and hang-ups.
I know you intend this as a rhetorical point, here, but it's ironic that you're calling attention to your privileged position in the midst of a lecture on the merits of right speech. You were saying something about planks and splinters before.
there's hypocrite, and there's pulling rank.
And you're quite right.
I wouldn't actually do it.
Whereas someone else did.
Or am I quietly losing the plot......?:eek:
Thanks for calling me out. I put the warning label on my post, because I knew it was written emotionally. A couple of clarifications:
No one said it was acceptable to curse when you drop something on your toe, but several of the people who said cursing is hurtful also said that they do it in certain situations. I truly don't understand this.
"That's your problem." This was a cop out on my part. It's not a full explanation of what I think. I do think the issue is mainly within the person who is bothered by a word. I'm talking a randomly overheard word or a word that was not meant to offend by the person who said it. If someone is hurt by a word, yes, we all have to deal with it, but the only person who can really change the cause of the hurt is the person who is hurt. Again, this is not referring to a situation when someone purposely hurls an insult. If you are insulted when the person standing next to you in line curses, I don't think it is reasonable for any of us to expect the person who cursed to take responsibility for that. They might, but that's up to them. After all, as many of you have stated, the entire world's not buddhist. Many on the people on this forum are not.
All that said, I would like to call attention to the greatly under-quoted portion of my post where I said I personally am mindful of my language most of the time. And like Nirvy I work at a place where I would be fired for bad language. My personal belief (this is aBuddhist, again) is that we give words and people power. While you crusade for a language-free environment, I challenge you to let go of whatever personal reasons you have that make language so offensive to you.
Guilty as charged......
The former, as far as I am concerned are an irritation, and something I see as unnecessary for the most part - the second I find gravely offensive, because of the intended verbal injury.
I also (and again, this is merely my opinion) think it renders a person less articulate.
If someone cannot express what they have to say without resorting to profanities, I personally do not think it says anything for their ability to pass a sentiment on effectively.
But that's just me....
But the point is, that person IS responsible for what they said. They are not responsible for how other people take it (insulted, or whatever) but they are responsible for what came out of their mouth. When we practice Right Speech we think about what we are inclined to say, what the circumstances are, who is listening etc., BEFORE we open our big yaps. When we are responsible we think about whether other people might be offended and we choose other words to avoid offending.
I hear a number of people in this discussion (you know who you are) who want to behave badly/ be opinionated/ shock people etc. and think that they should be able to get away with it.
My reaction? I don't get offended. I just wonder how small your member is that you seem to think that you need to create such a big presence in order to find your place in the world.
[I'm going to go cool down now......]
Socially accepted or not isn't a valid reason for or against any practice. At one point it was socially unacceptable for a person to be anything other than a practicing Christian (in some places it still is). At one point it was socially unacceptable for blacks to eat in the same lunchrooms as whites. At one point it was socially unacceptable for gays to be open with their sexuality (and again, in some places it still is).
Overhearing an f-bomb harms you in no way, shape, or form. You might be a little offended, but you are unharmed.
I don't seem to recall any rule against the use of certain four-letter words, but if you feel the need to throw your weight as moderator around based on your personal dislikes then by all means, you have that right.
Don't worry, I'm not easily offended.
Only I am not "hiding behind Buddhist diatribe". I haven't said one word about Buddhist anything in this thread. I'm standing behind blunt opinion.
~nomad
Quite simply when some of us are alone we talk to ourselves. I am my own best friend and sometimes when my gadgets are misbehaving I say bad words. I don't know what effect my words have on the machinery, but the venting on my part is better than just sitting back and waiting on the S_L_O_W machines to go through their processes. Of course, I mostly am disgusted with myself for clicking on the wrong program which I'll have to wait to open and then close. It's really quite elementary.
............................... emphasis mine Personal reasons?
To me they're not personal reasons as much as they are organic. The emotions that well up in me are not "rational," but rather part of a fabric or substratum over which not a lot of control can be had. And let's not get into any Buddhist or Advaita vedantist thing here, as this topic has really more to do with the real world and ordinary people. The only place where the choice to let go intervenes here is refusing to dwell on perceived insults or even the crudeness of which some people are capable. That, certainly is a very good choice, and certainly one that any well-adjusted person would make; however that is not the question this thread raises. This thread is asking about decorum and it appears that many who frequent this site have resigned themselves to throwing the baby out with the bathwater, having suspected that some Holy Water may have been dropped in it.
.....................................emphasis mine
MouthfulofClay, would you please rephrase that statement (in boldface) so that it makes sense. You didn't really mean that, did you? I don't really mean to single you out here, but I am easily confused. I might could understand changing the effect of the hurt, but not the cause.
As we mature we should become less and less assertive of our rights and more and more interested in cultivating greater harmony in which we can enjoy the beautiful children of the gardens we create. I just chuckle at the young men who are determined not to let anyone get ahead of them in traffic, even if they're in the wrong lane, whilst I just gladly let them by. Of course, there are those old guys who never grow up, either.
I think I could be one of those if I lost my best friend and had to cuss at others!
Cheers!
Nirvy
You'll probably work a lot more effectively if you can learn to calm down in these situations.
I remain calm. My venting may not even be noticed by someone next to me, because it's kinda (but not quite) under my breath. The words are simply voicing sentiments of impatience, not of disrespect.
But I put truthfulness above the need to be all pure and holy. I don't pretend to be perfect, and will admit saying some words every now and then that are a bit off color. If I weren't being pulled farther than I can stretch at times by deadlines at work, school, and home maybe I could a pure buddha be. However, truthfulness with and about oneself, I think, is a prerequisite and foundation for all other considerations.
What's an important consideration here, though, is where I picked up these words. At work I'll say "By golly," or "Dern," and then even sometimes laughingly "apologize" for using "such language." (The old folks there don't want to hear upsetting words but do love to laugh.)
What I am saying to those that say that use of profane language on this web site should not be abridged is that it pollutes our biosphere needlessly and plants bad seed that will come back as weeds, choking out the good seed. Language development is greatly influenced by what we "hear," and once words are firmly planted in us their use is likely to continue or even increase. In other words, if I am immersed in an environment where use of vulgar speech is common, I am likely to pick it up by osmosis, as it were.
I think Sara's point in starting this thread is a valid one and deserves respect and consideration. Not everyone visiting is Buddhist or Eastern-leaning, so we should bear that in mind.
If somebody tells me that something I'm doing makes him or her uncomfortable, I'm gentleman enough to stop and reconsider my actions. We are all called to be more gracious than we already are. There's a word for that: compassion.
Personally, the words do not affect ME whether I said them or anyone said them to me-and I took that to mean that EVERYONE was happy with that-WRONG!
A good "test" of the quality of what you say is kosher or non-offensive, is would you say the EXACT same words to you parents/wife/husband/children/priest/rabbi or whatever in standard conversation? and in doing so would their reaction be one of delight (happiness) or disgust/anger/, If the answer is "no", well I think it is fairly easily to determine if the words cause "hurt" or not.
I would argue that Knowing my influence on my children and wife with respect to swearing-It definitely does cause hurt and a lowering of "class" in others eyes. If after letting out a tirade against the person ahead of me in the car ahead for making one mistake (in front of me-how dare they!) versus the unseen four or five I made in the same trip-would that show me to be a great leader, a good father or an inspiration to my kids/wife?? I doubt it.
The status of the person saying those words is ALWAYS interpreted by others as of low intelligence, uncaring attitude and even undisciplined.
These words create a diversion away from the buddist precept of "Right Speech".
NB: My mouth has got me into SOOO much trouble over the years, right up to this day-so take it from me, bad words create harm for oneself and others in the firing line.
Cheers.