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Why is killing so bad?

edited November 2009 in Buddhism Basics
Not that I enjoy killing anything or do actually, but rationally, it one does believe in rebirth, why is killing someone so bad? You are not really taking anything from them- they are going to come back anyway in another body? Or if it was a person so full of evil that they were going to destroy the world?

Comments

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited October 2009
    In Buddhism, intentions are very important. All intentional actions of body, speech and mind are said to act as causes, which in turn produce effects. The quality of the intention behind any given action (e.g., skillful, unskillful, etc.) conditions the quality of the results of that action and how they're experienced (e.g., pleasant, unpleasant, etc.).

    When it comes to killing, for example, Buddhism posits that the intention to kill is inherently unskillful (i.e., rooted in hate or delusion) and leads to unpleasant results in both this life and the next (if you believe in that kind of stuff). In the case of killing a living being, the act of killing negatively conditions our consciousness, as well as the results of that particular action. So not only would killing a living being harm that being by depriving them of life, it'd negatively impact ourselves in some way too.

    The mechanism behind this is called kamma or karma, which literally means "action." For more information about kamma, I'd suggest reading Kamma: A Study Guide.
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited October 2009
    Also, when I was studying Tibetan Buddhism I often came across teachers who emphasized how rare it is to be reborn as a human. I would hate to deprive anyone of their precious rebirth as a human.

    I don't even know if that's Right View or skillful thinking. I just added it because it's something I think about. If I'm way off I hope somebody will tell me.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited October 2009
    Contemplate the fact that you are going to die, and could die at any time, even in the next thirty seconds, and you will understand why it's so bad.
  • edited October 2009
    Its about karma. the negative karma for killing is extremely heavy.
    Killing with intent, no repentance, enjoyment, and intention to repeat is a great way to have your ticket punched for rebirth in a hell realm.
    killing without those four qualifiers is also an extremely heavy negativity.
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited October 2009
    Someone did something that angers you. You have a good reason to kill him, and after due deliberation you decide that you will. However, just as you're about to pull the trigger, the fairy of dramatic irony causes the two of you to exchange roles. Now you're the offender and he's about to pull the trigger. Is killing still justified, or has further consideration of the merits of the case and reconsideration of various mitigating factors lead you to the conclusion that you might have been a bit hasty?
  • edited October 2009
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    Someone did something that angers you. You have a good reason to kill him, and after due deliberation you decide that you will. However, just as you're about to pull the trigger, the fairy of dramatic irony causes the two of you to exchange roles. Now you're the offender and he's about to pull the trigger.

    Oooh, I shall have to remember the fairy of dramatic irony.

    *no sarcasm, and this is not sarcasm either*
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited October 2009
    Gotta watch out for them fairies, man!

    Brigid is quite right. To kill another human is the heaviest karma because, as she said, to be born a human is exceedingly rare, and particularly if you are born a human in a time and a place where you have the opportunity to hear the Dharma, which is known as a precious human rebirth. To rob someone of this opportunity is the worst of crimes. It is like killing your own liberation, which is pretty much what you're doing.

    Once a teacher said that if we could experience the results of the karma we create as soon as we created it, it wouldn't be such a problem for us to get. If, for example, we stepped on an ant and immediately felt our chest being crushed, I think we'd be extremely careful of where we put our feet!

    When I was at our main monastery in India, Namdroling, we were receiving a series of empowerments from His Holiness Penor Rinpoche every day for two weeks. Every morning when His Holiness came to the temple, there would be an old monk standing near the door. His Holiness would stop every day and greet the old monk, spend a few minutes talking to him. He was so old his eyebrows had grown down over his eyes! I wondered who he was, since he obviously meant a lot to His Holiness. He lived in the little protector temple near the main temple amongst all kinds of spider webs and other sentient beings, which he was extremely careful never to disturb. Well, it turns out that when His Holiness escaped from Tibet to come to India he had been hotly pursued by Chinese soldiers who were out to kill him. This old monk had been one of the Tibetan soldiers protecting His Holiness, during the course of which he had killed many Chinese soldiers. When they finally reached India and safety, he felt so bad at having had to kill so many men that he asked Holiness to be ordained and made a vow to do everything he could to never kill another sentient being again. I heard that he has since passed on, but I think about him often. I think there's a lesson there for all of us.

    Palzang
  • edited October 2009
    Spartickis wrote: »
    Not that I enjoy killing anything or do actually, but rationally, it one does believe in rebirth, why is killing someone so bad? You are not really taking anything from them- they are going to come back anyway in another body?

    Perhaps you could test out your rational hypothesis by killing yourself. Once you've killed yourself, check, rationally, to see if you have lost anything. Presumbly, you will be reborn and everything will be the same, and you won't have lost anything. Well, apart from your friends, loved ones, family, possessions, all your memories, your life, your body, everything you hoped or dreamed for in that life, everything you had lived and breathed for, worked for, achieved, and hoped to achieve, in that particular life. But hey! apart from those little things, what have you lost. Sure, your friends, loved ones, family, and so on will be devastated that you're dead and gone, never to return; they may have huge holes in their hearts, a void in their lives which can never be replaced, and suffer mourning and misery; but, this is none but irrationality, as you say; for you will be reborn, and you haven't lost anything, apart from those things ennumerated above; so their disappointment is none but irrationality.
    Oh and, depending on what form you take in rebirth, be it an insect, a puppy, or a snake, you may have even lost your fortunate human form. Even if you are reborn as a human, you will be a helpless infant with no knowledge or memory of your previous life. And if you are unlucky enough to be reborn as a mayfly, or a mosquito, or a sponge, or a mud puppy, you certainly won't have any memory or recollection of your past life. But apart from all those little things, and being reborn as a blind amorphous fish-like creature dwelling at the bottom of the ocean, with dim thoughts only of mud and plankton, it is still, surely, as you say. When considered rationally: you are nevertheless reborn, so what have you actually lost.
    Oh and, depending how old you are, you may lose several precious years of that life. Say, if you were a 3 year old baby, you're losing all your life. But, as you say, the baby will be reborn, so what has it really lost?
    Sure, the parents are going to be distraught, but this is, we may know, none but irrationality on their part; they ought to know, oughtn't they, that the baby is going to be reborn, so why are they getting upset? Sure, their baby may be reborn as a dung beetle, a tapeworm, a snail, or a tortoise, or maybe a fuzzy chiton, or perhaps a horseshoe crab, but it's still been reborn, right? So why get upset.
  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited October 2009
    I started a new thread on Kamma above.
  • edited October 2009
    pegembara wrote: »
    I started a new thread on Kamma above.

    Kamma? Oh, karma....Sorry, Mahayanist here, not used to the Pali renderings.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2009
    But given that you know both terms, and both are valid - get used to it.
    This is neither a mahayana nor a theravada prominent website.

    So both terms are fine.

    No big deal, is it...? ;)
  • edited October 2009
    This thread makes me think of a particular quote...

    <p style="border-left:5px solid #CD8836; margin-left: 10px; padding: 10px;background-color:#F6F2D5;width:50%;">If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down?</p>
  • edited November 2009
    Spartickis wrote: »
    Not that I enjoy killing anything or do actually, but rationally, it one does believe in rebirth, why is killing someone so bad? You are not really taking anything from them- they are going to come back anyway in another body?

    By the same, ahem, "rationale", stealing is also not bad. For, if I take your today's wages, you are still nevertheless going to get tomorrow's wages, so I have not really taken anything from you. Also, if I steal today's meals from you, you haven't lost anything, because you are still going to get tomorrows meals.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited November 2009
    sambodhi wrote: »
    This thread makes me think of a particular quote...

    <p style="border-left:5px solid #CD8836; margin-left: 10px; padding: 10px;background-color:#F6F2D5;width:50%;">If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down?</p>

    Unless, of course, they screamed all the time.
  • edited November 2009
    Spartickis wrote: »
    Not that I enjoy killing anything or do actually, but rationally, it one does believe in rebirth, why is killing someone so bad? You are not really taking anything from them- they are going to come back anyway in another body?

    Also, by the same, ahem, "rationale", whether one commits suicide or not at any time is immaterial - because you will get reborn anyway. So really, if anyone at any time commits suicide or not, it makes no difference, because they will get reborn.
    Well this is great! It's very empowering for those with suicidal thoughts the world over. Guys - just do it! As this "rationale" illustrates, you're not losing anything! You are going to come back anyway in another body.
    Suicidal? Go for it!
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Lol... just when Spartickis thought he was safe, Lotus Buddha returns for another quick kick in the nads. :lol:

    I think Spartickis just felt he saw a contradiction in the Buddhist teachings (and really, it's a pretty common misconception and just a result of not fully understanding certain concepts/terms) and wanted clarification, rather than actually asking for an explanation of why killing is bad. ;)
  • edited November 2009
    not1not2 wrote: »
    Unless, of course, they screamed all the time.
    :winkc:
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited November 2009
    not1not2 wrote: »
    Unless, of course, they screamed all the time.

    They do, all the time! I see dead trees!

    Palzang
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Lol!!! Good one, Pally!!
  • AriettaDolenteAriettaDolente Veteran
    edited November 2009
    lalavajra wrote: »
    Perhaps you could test out your rational hypothesis by killing yourself. Once you've killed yourself, check, rationally, to see if you have lost anything. Presumbly, you will be reborn and everything will be the same, and you won't have lost anything. Well, apart from your friends, loved ones, family, possessions, all your memories, your life, your body, everything you hoped or dreamed for in that life, everything you had lived and breathed for, worked for, achieved, and hoped to achieve, in that particular life. But hey! apart from those little things, what have you lost. Sure, your friends, loved ones, family, and so on will be devastated that you're dead and gone, never to return; they may have huge holes in their hearts, a void in their lives which can never be replaced, and suffer mourning and misery; but, this is none but irrationality, as you say; for you will be reborn, and you haven't lost anything, apart from those things ennumerated above; so their disappointment is none but irrationality.
    Hey, I saw that movie. "It's a Wonderful Life," with Jimmy Stewart. :D There's your answer.
  • edited November 2009
    What's up with people being so mean to each other in online forums? It's also interesting that Buddhist forums are no different.
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