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A bit confused and concerned.
I have been going to a local group in Essex, UK, that is part of Longchen.
http://www.longchenfoundation.org/
Anyway, I'm moving up to Yourshire in the UK, tomorrow. I have found another group which is local to me which is part of the New Kadampa Tradition.
http://www.enjoymeditation.org/index.php
Anyway, I was warned off of them by my Longchen teacher, who said there is a lot of bad energy associated with New Kadampa. That they are against the Dalai Lama. Usually I take all these rumour mongers with a pinch of salt. They look nice enough, do I have cause for concern about any of this?
http://www.longchenfoundation.org/
Anyway, I'm moving up to Yourshire in the UK, tomorrow. I have found another group which is local to me which is part of the New Kadampa Tradition.
http://www.enjoymeditation.org/index.php
Anyway, I was warned off of them by my Longchen teacher, who said there is a lot of bad energy associated with New Kadampa. That they are against the Dalai Lama. Usually I take all these rumour mongers with a pinch of salt. They look nice enough, do I have cause for concern about any of this?
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NKT went through a period of rapid growth. Organizations undergoing rapid growth are typically starved for resources. In the case of NKT, it seems as though some people were promoted to leadership positions before they were ready, and some people say that their loans of money or equipment (e.g. computers) were converted into gifts and weren't repaid, and other people felt that they had been put under a lot of pressure to do work for the organization.
Some ex-members continue to defend the organization, some ex-members feel that they were abused, and some ex-members have no strong feelings about it. As far as I know, it's the only western Buddhist group with online support groups for survivors, which could simply be the fall out from rapid growth. It's also the only Buddhist group I know of with a web site devoted to defending itself against its detractors, which could just be due to the acrimony of the split. They seem to have a low tolerance for internal dissent, but their reason for existence is to preserve what they consider a pure form of Gelug teaching, so they're not going to tolerate much adulteration.
Personally, before getting involved with them, I would wait a few years for the dust to settle and see what sort of organization they evolve into.
BTW, as far as I know, the founder of NKT is the real deal; a qualified Gelug teacher whose statements are treated seriously by other Gelug teachers.
In 1977 Geshe Kelsang Gyatso accepted an invitation to teach in England, and since then has established unique study programs that are taught at over 1000 New Kadampa Tradition centres and groups throughout the world.
Seems OK to me, I'll pay them a visit and make up my mind from there.
Previous discussion here.
If one is seeking teachings to allow one to help oneself, there will be no trouble.
I have read only a few of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's books (and of course chose them myself) and found them to be excellent. (I found them better than HHDL's very intellectual books).
But if one is seeking others to help oneself, there can be trouble.
The Buddhist path is designed for oneself to walk.
My impression is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso set up a system where he encouraged practitioners to set up and fund their own Dhamma centres.
When I visited an NKT centre a few times out of curiosity (I was already established in Dhamma), I found the people there quite young & a little green but the centre fine.
As long as people gather together to study & practise, it is usually fine.
Even when there is an inspiring guru, once the guru stops talking & spreading love vibrations, one is on their own and must practise on their own.
my question seemed to stir up a lot of strong feelings... and a lot of people seem not to like NKD for various reasons...
my advice would be to listen to the council of others, but also to take things as you find them... i read a lot about buddhism before i started going to NKD and also read a lot about the controversy...
My personal experience has been that at face value there is nothing ''bad'' about them. the classes are nice and the methods they teach helpfull with no sinister conversion tactics...
ive been to their temple a few times and although i find some of their practises strange theres nothing that strikes me as sinister in any way... most of the people that go there seem to be on thier own path with little concern for trying to convert others ...
That being said - im a practising hindu, with my own community and temple and faith. I go to the classes because the meditation is helpfull and the philosophy not far off the branch of hinduis i belong too .. so there is no real clash on that level...
right now im interested in Buddhism as a way of rounding out my own faith nothing more ... it might be differant for you... but i would always advise to experience first hand befoer you make a judgement since everyone is differant in their experiences etc
if that's what you are doing by asking us....well I personally have no clue!
But I think I remembered his wise words that,
"IF any religion or sect...something something... resembles properly the 8fold paths teachings, ....they are safely in the hands of the buddha"
something like that..:D
How so? I find Buddhism to be rather opposite of lonely. Buddhism has taught me at the very least that I share this world with every sentient being. I have also found Buddhism is less exclusive then some of the other world religions.
Anyway, the only person to judge for ones self should be ones self, so pay a visit and see what you think!
Joe
When you're with yourself you're never alone.
True:p
I believe there's different parts of ones pesonality, why not talk to your consience?
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is an authentic spiritual teacher and the lineage and teachings are pure, but it's not Tibetan Buddhism.
Good luck with your move :winkc:
the only truth in this statement is that GKG doesnt teach authentic Tibetan Buddhism.
If he wasn't spreading a practice that you disagree with he would be just another lama who has internalized the 3 principal paths and has exerted much effort into spreading the dharma.
Just that the path is ultimately our own. We can share it but, it still comes down to out own practice. Not like say Christianity, Islam and Jewish. Where all come together to rejoice in God and each other.
Look don't think I'm complaining, I'm not, I just feel it can be lonely at times.
Well I'm reading a book by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso called Transform Your Life. It's rather good and easy to read.
I have since moved to Yorkshire, been here one week and have attended the centre.
http://www.enjoymeditation.org/index.php
So far I'm impressed, they are very welcoming, I have volunteered to help out where I can. The resident teacher is a very nice person. Infact I voiced my concerns to him, he wasn't phased in the least and basically said follow your heart. Can't be no fairer than that can you!
not really. when someone trashes their three sets of vows and causes a schism in the sangha and propagates a practice of aggression and hatred toward other Buddhists as GKG has done and continues to do they are no longer authentic teachers of Buddhist dharma
I'm glad you like it
Joe<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
I think we can see here whose words are sectarian and divisive. People are perfectly capable of making up their own minds without TGIE propaganda.
and its not Tibetan Government in Exile "propaganda" either. My opinions come from researching the history of the situation and the gyalpo worship that they engage in.
The centre I attend doesn't seem cultish to me. I give you it's early days, but still seems fine to me.
Just my proverbial two cents.
Also she charges not just for talks, but for everything. A recent celebration for the enlightenment of the Buddha was $50. That wasn't a suggested donation, that was the price of a ticket. (I did NOT go!) Her monthly talks were $20 and when I pointed out she might get more attendees if she asked for donations rather than charge a fee, she dropped the price to $15. Again, I don't know if that's just her being foolish (she isn't a very practical person) or if that's NKT operating procedure. I will continue to go to her talks because they are just about the only game in town, but I would NEVER join.
its good for you to keep an open mind but do be careful.
they promote a practice that is not Buddhist and is violent and is known for being quite dangerous.
it would be in your best interest to make sure that you dont take any empowerments or initiations from them.
Chrispche, it might be good to mention that a large amount of the historical violence and hostility related to the gyalpo that the NKT propagates and worships has been directed at Nyingmapa's. Since you mentioned that you had a Longchen (Nyingtig) teacher I thought you should be aware of this. Although the gyalpo of the NKT is hostile toward all non-Gelug lineages they are particularly hostile toward Nyingmapa's.
The majority of modern Gelug lama's have given up this practice, I have many wonderful Gelug lama's and the teachings of Tsongkhapa are indispensable and I encourage anyone to pursue them, but the NKT or any lama propagating the gyalpo known as Dorje Shugden should be avoided.
That's wrong to me, you shouldn't have to pay to be part of your religion:mad: And on the day of celebrating the Buddha's Enlightenment...:(<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
What shenpen nangwa is repeating is all propaganda by the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile. I find it sad that the TGIE can have such a sectarian and negative attitude towards any Buddhist lineage.
NKT is not hostile towards any Buddhist lineage or tradition. On the contrary, it is the Dalai Lama who is hostile towards Dorje Shugden practitioners.
There has been no historical violence by Dorje Shugden practitioners but there has been suppression and discrimination towards Shugden practitioners who are denied medicine, education and travel privileges because they refuse to give up their worship of a tradition Buddhist Deity who was worshipped and the Dalai Lama for 50 years and by all his Teachers and Gelugpa Lineage Gurus back to the time of the 5th Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama's intention is against all these great Masters.
There's really no point having a big discussion about this, please read the facts here and make up your own mind.
http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/
Lincoln they seem very genuine to me. They have yet to bring up any politics or condemn any other group. Infact I was saying to the resident teacher at the centre I might try other groups in the area. He said, by all means find what works for you. Not the sound of cultish behavior to me. Infact due to the open kindness of Gen Kelsang Päljin.
http://www.enjoymeditation.org/resident-teacher.php
I might even attend regularly. He certainly isn't putting me off other groups in the area.
Jesus! I'm confused there are some who defend the NKT with a passion, and other's who are strongly opposed to them.
All I can say is my own experience so far all be it very little is of a good one. The monks and nuns of the place seem nice. The books by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso seem good honest and straight forward. I will of course not limit myself to him. Infact the next book to read on my list is Never Turn Away by Rigdzin Shikpo. So I'm not going in with the intention of be a soul NKT practitioner. I'll just take what I want from there teachings and take what I want from other traditions teachings, and that's the way it's going to be for me.
Yep. That's the way it always is with this kind of split.
Remember that it's a large organization and there seems to be a lot of variation in the behavior of different local leaders. Don't make any commitments that you can't back out of if you start dealing with a local leader you don't like.
I feel sorry for you if you actually believe this nonsense.
You really need to look into Tibetan history for yourself.
this is interesting and relevant actually.
During the late 19th century and early 20th century the practice in question was propagated as a response to the Rime (non-sectarian) movement that was taking hold in eastern Tibet. In an attempt to stop this non-sectarian attitude Pabhonkha Dechen Nyingpo propagated the gyalpo and did his very best to influence the government into suppressing the Nyingma, Kagyu, and Sakya traditions throughout central and eastern Tibet. He even went as far as trying to alter the Kangyur so that it would allow him and the other worshipers of the gyalpo to take refuge in it.
If you investigate the history of the controversy you will clearly see that the sectarianism is quite one-sided.
I appreciate you have deep vested interests in defending your side/s on this split and feel it is based on solid research. My gut reaction is that the Dalai Lama has the best interests of Buddhism at heart.I think it unlikely that 'blame' can be fully placed on one side or the other. It may be that those involved in the shugden practice have corrupt intentions, but my next gut reaction is that its more likely they feel they have Buddhism best interests at heart too.
Sometimes when you're out of the detail you can see the big picture clearer -
...one group sees 'dissolution' of a tradition as damaging and tries to control/purify it. In controlling it they attempt to deny other 'translations'. When a leader (HHDL) sees these practices are aimed at 'purifying' the path he sees it as aggressive sectariansism and meditates on it. He has a dilemma - do you repress those who are the repressors? He elected yes. Similar to 'do you give fascist groups freedom of speech they would deny others'... I would say yes in that case, the opposite decision.In the end it depends which side you lie on as to which side you dump blame on. Better not to take sides. Shugden supporters should see other groups as brothers and understand their differences not reject them as outsuiders. The DL should only repress a spiritual act that has direct cause of suffering - does it? Buddhism represents a collection of people/beings through time coming together to try to work on suffering. Does a war of words/ideologies help with this? Clearly not.:crazy:
yes, it does.
the practice is based upon the worship of a violent spirit.
throughout the history of gyalpo worship those who practice it have brought illness, both mental and physical upon themselves and others.
the practice has also lead to the murders of Nyingma abbots in the past and the murder of an attendant of HHDL in the 1990's.
there are also hundreds, if not thousands of western practitioners who have been indoctrinated into this practice through the NKT. They have suffered greatly and there are groups and organizations who support NKT survivors.
the practice that HHDL has asked people not to do most certainly has a long history of generating suffering for those who practice it and those at whom its violence is directed.
This rings true. However, if you look into the other side of the matter you will see much evidence to suggest the practice has been suppressed through aggressive means (see wikipaedia entry on this conflict). I don't believe one side only has committed such acts.:o
although, the wiki article is quite inaccurate.
If anyone is interested the history is actually fascinating.
If you or someone you know reads Tibetan there is a lot of stuff to learn about what lead up to the current situation.
You should probably also be aware that a number of Kelsang Gyatso's heirs (i.e. Neil Elliot and Steve Wass) have been ousted for sexual misconduct with 'nuns' within the NKT.
At first the NKT seems all fluffy and full of compassion, however if you hang around long enough (as I did), it becomes clear that the practice most promoted is the Tsongkhapa guru yoga combined with the protector (shugden) practice and that they will agressively challenge anyone who disagrees with the validity of the practice. It is highly recommended that this meditation is done daily. Therefore it can reasonably be said the majority of NKTers are propitators of shugden and engage in the practice regularly.
I suggest that you look at this site:
www.nktworld.org
On a final note I'd like to say dont take my word for it! Investigate yourself, use reason and logic and dont take anything on face value. It is my wish that others do not continue to get hurt in this sad situation.
All the best
Fenrir
P.S. I have not been involved with the NKT for many years now but continue to meditate regularly, or at least try to.
It might be good to add that the Tsongkhapa Guru yoga known as the Ganden Lha Gyema only includes the gyalpo practice based upon the NKT addition of it. The standard (without the gyalpo addition ) Ganden Lha Gyema is an amazing practice that I cannot recommend highly enough. I myself did 2 retreats of this practice.
Thanks
Fenrir
Of course it's the standard one! I challenge you to find differences in the meaning between the first part of 'Heart Jewel' and the Ganden Lha Gyema practised by Tibetan Gelugpas.
The difference is that Heart Jewel also contains the practice of the Wisdom Protector Dorje Shugden. Due to the Dalai Lama's propaganda, this practice now has a bad name amongst those who simply accept the Dalai Lama's word at face value without understanding his alterior motives. Ignorance and celebrity reigns, unfortunately, wisdom does not.
Anyone who wants to understand more about the Dalai Lama and the political degeneration of Buddhism that has resulted from his actions should read this book:
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/en/agd
It is the Dalai Lama who is always doing the very things he accuses others of. This is why the charge of hypocrisy has been made against him by the Western Shugden Society.
I agree with shenpen nangwa on one thing, at least - check out everything for yourself and make your own decision. Don't be duped by the reputation of the Dalai Lama and assume he is right.