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After a brief private discussion with Avalo, I'm agreeing to re-open the thread, on the proviso and understanding that he cease being so enigmatic, and speak freely.
Here's hoping we get to the bottom of what is particularly strange about the Four Noble Truths.....
I await Avalokitesvara's clarification and expounding of his opinion.
Thank you Federica for having reopened the thread and excuse me for my bad English: I am Italian and I live in Rome: the English and my level of 'basic education and I hope you are compassionate for this .... Avala is my best friend and we are fans not only of Buddhism, but of all Eastern philosophy, we like to sweep and open our minds, Sorry if you do not always speak of our beloved Buddha ..Thank's again....:)
No, because you must refer to all the four noble truths. The sequence is both logical and self-explanatory.....
look at it this way:
Noble truth #1: You're cake is sinking in the middle.
Noble truth #2: It's sinking in the middle, because you've got the recipe wrong.
Noble truth #3: There is a way to stop the cake sinking in the middle.
Noble truth #4: The way, is to use the right recipe.
See?
In the third point you say "There is a way ...", you say "way" which is the fourth truth (The Way Leading to the Cessation of Suffering). But you put it in third point because it is the third point that must go.You must first find the way, and after you arrive at its cessation.
I'm aware that there is suffering, seek the origins of this, I sense the way, and arrives at its end!
I found a strange arrangement of the four truths, and more specifically the third and fourth that seem reversed. Before finding the cessation of suffering must find the way Leading to the Cessation of suffering. The cessation of suffering (third truth) is the final state (fourth truth).
It 'clear now?
Sheesh! If you had just said this from the start...
The 3rd simply speaks the Truth that there is (which should be read as "can be") freedom from suffering, and the 4th states the Truth of the Path which leads to it. If you did know first that it was possible for dukkha to be quenched, you would not know of or need a path to achieve it.
It truly seems like Fede was right that you added 1+1+1+1 and got--
In the third point you say "There is a way ...", you say "way" which is the fourth truth (The Way Leading to the Cessation of Suffering).
No, Fede said that "there IS a way..." is the 3rd Truth, and "the way is..." is the 4th Truth.
The 3rd simply speaks the Truth that there is (which should be read as "can be") freedom from suffering, and the 4th states the Truth of the Path which leads to it. If you did know first that it was possible for dukkha to be quenched, you would not know of or need a path to achieve it.
The 3rd speaks explicitly of cessation of suffering. Means that this is the state where there is no more suffering. The 4rd truth speaks explicitly of way, or path as you say, that leads to the state of cessation (end state).
No, Fede said that "there IS a way..." is the 3rd Truth, and "the way is..." is the 4th Truth.
The way can not be 4rd, because before going to any part you must travel the way. Take the way and then arrive in the state of cessation. If you go to your house to my house, you have to travel a way.
Dear friend, I'm not interested in opening a question about this, everyone is free to believe as he wishes, but I've always been accustomed to thinking about the things that come from the past because it can often happen that were a little 'change'. But this is normal considering the millennia that have passed and respects the logic of free beings.
The 3rd speaks explicitly of cessation of suffering. Means that this is the state where there is no more suffering. The 4rd truth speaks explicitly of way, or path as you say, that leads to the state of cessation (end state).
No Ava,
You are misunderstanding. The 4NT's are simply truths. The 1st Truth says you experience dukkha. The 2nd Truth explains the origin of dukkha: craving. The 3rd Truth says that if we let go of craving, it would follow that dukkha would cease. The 4th Truth explains how to let go of all craving, and therefore how to be free of dukkha.
If you don't know the source of the problem, and don't know that a problem is remediable, you'll never find out how to remedy it. Do you agree?
Take the way and then arrive in the state of cessation.
Yes, take the Path and you will arrive at "the state of cessation." This is what the 4th Truth states. The 3rd Truth, once again, does not say "you are here, dukkha has ceased." Nor does the 4th state "you are here, dukkha has ceased." I understand that English is not your first language, so please trust me when I say that the 3rd Truth is meant to be read as "There CAN BE freedom from dukkha."
The 4NT's are simply truths. The 1st Truth says you experience dukkha. The 2nd Truth explains the origin of dukkha: craving. The 3rd Truth says that if we let go of craving, it would follow that dukkha would cease. The 4th Truth explains how to let go of all craving, and therefore how to be free of dukkha.
Have their own logic and are not put in order randomly. They have an evolutionary sense and logic to move as a sentient being.
Okay describe them individually, but then to be seen as a whole and must comply with an order which I think is not to say today.
If you don't know the source of the problem, and don't know that a problem is remediable, you'll never find out how to remedy it. Do you agree?
Right! But even if you understand this then you have to realize, and realize you have to first pass the way (you have to go) which then takes you to the state of cessation. The four original truths were put in another order because they explain the path as it does in reality. Just like when you go from one place to another. Even if you know where you go (mentally) in reality you have to do first is the way that gets you where you hope.
Yes, take the Path and you will arrive at "the state of cessation." This is what the 4th Truth states. The 3rd Truth, once again, does not say "you are here, dukkha has ceased." Nor does the 4th state "you are here, dukkha has ceased."
The fourth truth says cessation, does not say you take the path.
You can not get anywhere unless you take the way. To get to the end you must first find the path. If I have to go to your home, I must first find and know the way, then I can go to your home. Even though I know there is your house, as I get there? (end state). I must first find the way, follow, and then arrive.
The 4st says cessation, does not say you take the path.
Either you're being deliberately stubborn, or your English reading comprehension needs a lot of work.
If the 4NT's were meant to illustrate what you've described, then I would agree with you (obviously you do not start at being free from dukkha, and then follow the path leading to being free from dukkha). But they aren't. I explained to you very clearly what the 4NT's convey.
You are reading "The 3rd Truth is the cessation of dukkha" as "You have just attained Nibbana, congrats!" when it is meant to be read as "the 3rd Truth is [what] the cessation of dukkha [means]" which tells us that Nibbana is possible.
Now, what you are describing, is more like Dependent Origination, which starts with the cause of suffering, and results in the arising of suffering. In reverse, it starts with the way leading to the cessation of suffering, and ends with what is the cessation of suffering.
You are thinking this is what the 4NT's are meant to be, but they aren't; the 4NT's simply state: "there is suffering (1), and this is why (2); there can be no suffering (3), and this is how (4)."
You are thinking this is what the 4NT's are meant to be, but they aren't; the 4NT's state simple constant truths... it really doesn't matter which order you put them in, as long as they're looked at as a whole. They state "there is suffering, and this is why; there can be no suffering, and this is how."
Not so, because the order is rather important and I will tell you that in the near future this will be explained well (not by me) and with clarity. This is because the four truths are much more than what you know and are connected with the thinner parts of sentient and deep. Their order must coincide with the new discoveries, both physical and psychological more advanced, you hear talk about ...
And 'the second truth that describes the origin of suffering (So here already knows what is the origin). The fourth is only the cessation. In between is the way
The Buddha advised he taught only about two things, namely, suffering & the cessation of suffering.
The first truth describes what is suffering and the second truth describes the cause.
The third truth describes what is the end of suffering and the fourth truth describes the cause or way.
They do have their logic and are not random but they do not have an evolutionary sense.
If they had an evolutionary sense, the third truth would be last and the fourth truth would be first.
Kind regards
In fact, the third is the last, as it was originally. E 'in time that this thing has been changed.
The four truths are the path that makes a being but are also much more, and this is still not known.
In fact, the third is the last, as it was originally. E 'in time that this thing has been changed.
The four truths are the path that makes a being but are also much more, and this is still not known.
My question is: despite exist the 4 noble truths 'of the Buddha, because' in this world reigns Ashanti?:)
Comments
Thank you Federica for having reopened the thread and excuse me for my bad English: I am Italian and I live in Rome: the English and my level of 'basic education and I hope you are compassionate for this .... Avala is my best friend and we are fans not only of Buddhism, but of all Eastern philosophy, we like to sweep and open our minds, Sorry if you do not always speak of our beloved Buddha ..Thank's again....:)
In the third point you say "There is a way ...", you say "way" which is the fourth truth (The Way Leading to the Cessation of Suffering). But you put it in third point because it is the third point that must go.You must first find the way, and after you arrive at its cessation.
I'm aware that there is suffering, seek the origins of this, I sense the way, and arrives at its end!
Sheesh! If you had just said this from the start...
The 3rd simply speaks the Truth that there is (which should be read as "can be") freedom from suffering, and the 4th states the Truth of the Path which leads to it. If you did know first that it was possible for dukkha to be quenched, you would not know of or need a path to achieve it.
It truly seems like Fede was right that you added 1+1+1+1 and got--
No, Fede said that "there IS a way..." is the 3rd Truth, and "the way is..." is the 4th Truth.
The 3rd speaks explicitly of cessation of suffering. Means that this is the state where there is no more suffering. The 4rd truth speaks explicitly of way, or path as you say, that leads to the state of cessation (end state).
The way can not be 4rd, because before going to any part you must travel the way. Take the way and then arrive in the state of cessation. If you go to your house to my house, you have to travel a way.
Dear friend, I'm not interested in opening a question about this, everyone is free to believe as he wishes, but I've always been accustomed to thinking about the things that come from the past because it can often happen that were a little 'change'. But this is normal considering the millennia that have passed and respects the logic of free beings.
:rolleyes:
No Ava,
You are misunderstanding. The 4NT's are simply truths.
If you don't know the source of the problem, and don't know that a problem is remediable, you'll never find out how to remedy it. Do you agree?
Yes, take the Path and you will arrive at "the state of cessation." This is what the 4th Truth states. The 3rd Truth, once again, does not say "you are here, dukkha has ceased." Nor does the 4th state "you are here, dukkha has ceased." I understand that English is not your first language, so please trust me when I say that the 3rd Truth is meant to be read as "There CAN BE freedom from dukkha."
Have their own logic and are not put in order randomly. They have an evolutionary sense and logic to move as a sentient being.
Okay describe them individually, but then to be seen as a whole and must comply with an order which I think is not to say today.
Right! But even if you understand this then you have to realize, and realize you have to first pass the way (you have to go) which then takes you to the state of cessation. The four original truths were put in another order because they explain the path as it does in reality. Just like when you go from one place to another. Even if you know where you go (mentally) in reality you have to do first is the way that gets you where you hope.
The fourth truth says cessation, does not say you take the path.
You can not get anywhere unless you take the way. To get to the end you must first find the path. If I have to go to your home, I must first find and know the way, then I can go to your home. Even though I know there is your house, as I get there? (end state). I must first find the way, follow, and then arrive.
Either you're being deliberately stubborn, or your English reading comprehension needs a lot of work.
If the 4NT's were meant to illustrate what you've described, then I would agree with you (obviously you do not start at being free from dukkha, and then follow the path leading to being free from dukkha). But they aren't. I explained to you very clearly what the 4NT's convey.
You are reading "The 3rd Truth is the cessation of dukkha" as "You have just attained Nibbana, congrats!" when it is meant to be read as "the 3rd Truth is [what] the cessation of dukkha [means]" which tells us that Nibbana is possible.
Now, what you are describing, is more like Dependent Origination, which starts with the cause of suffering, and results in the arising of suffering. In reverse, it starts with the way leading to the cessation of suffering, and ends with what is the cessation of suffering.
You are thinking this is what the 4NT's are meant to be, but they aren't; the 4NT's simply state: "there is suffering (1), and this is why (2); there can be no suffering (3), and this is how (4)."
Not so, because the order is rather important and I will tell you that in the near future this will be explained well (not by me) and with clarity. This is because the four truths are much more than what you know and are connected with the thinner parts of sentient and deep. Their order must coincide with the new discoveries, both physical and psychological more advanced, you hear talk about ...
And 'the second truth that describes the origin of suffering (So here already knows what is the origin). The fourth is only the cessation. In between is the way
The first truth describes what is suffering and the second truth describes the cause.
The third truth describes what is the end of suffering and the fourth truth describes the cause or way.
They do have their logic and are not random but they do not have an evolutionary sense.
If they had an evolutionary sense, the third truth would be last and the fourth truth would be first.
Kind regards
In fact, the third is the last, as it was originally. E 'in time that this thing has been changed.
The four truths are the path that makes a being but are also much more, and this is still not known.
My question is: despite exist the 4 noble truths 'of the Buddha, because' in this world reigns Ashanti?:)