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A Christmas thought
lol I was conversing with my mother about how I don't like Christmas,
because of the stress,
the capitalism,
the part about 80% of the people feel like crap ; they are reminded how poor they are, how many presents they didn't get, the disappointed kids, the jealously envy, massive increase in animal slaughter. making kids learn greed and "getting" (kids don't do or care much for the GIVING part).. ETC ETC
also, we started to talk about Santa..., and my mom agreed with me, "Oh its foolish how the kids believe in Santa!" she said,
and I remembered doubting the existence of SANTA, because it didn't make sense, how did he get into my house .. how could he make 8 billion stops in one night,
and i realized, LOL -the parallel to Christianity...
They believe in a SANTA (god), even though it doesn't make sense.
They believe in a Santa's work shop (heaven) in some crazy place far away....., in angels who work for Santa... (elves)
they believe in rewards like Gifts if you are nice.., (heaven) or a sack of coal if you are naughty..(HELL)
like the children... HOW FOOLISH...!!!
Now I think Christmas is a Christian/Capitalist Gang-bang Brainwash training camp for youth...:eek:
because of the stress,
the capitalism,
the part about 80% of the people feel like crap ; they are reminded how poor they are, how many presents they didn't get, the disappointed kids, the jealously envy, massive increase in animal slaughter. making kids learn greed and "getting" (kids don't do or care much for the GIVING part).. ETC ETC
also, we started to talk about Santa..., and my mom agreed with me, "Oh its foolish how the kids believe in Santa!" she said,
and I remembered doubting the existence of SANTA, because it didn't make sense, how did he get into my house .. how could he make 8 billion stops in one night,
and i realized, LOL -the parallel to Christianity...
They believe in a SANTA (god), even though it doesn't make sense.
They believe in a Santa's work shop (heaven) in some crazy place far away....., in angels who work for Santa... (elves)
they believe in rewards like Gifts if you are nice.., (heaven) or a sack of coal if you are naughty..(HELL)
like the children... HOW FOOLISH...!!!
Now I think Christmas is a Christian/Capitalist Gang-bang Brainwash training camp for youth...:eek:
0
Comments
And don't even get me started on all the horrible children and their overindulgent parents. It seems to get worse every year.
It's a time of giving to help the poor. People do give to the poor at Christmas, but more giving is needed.
Have you read Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol"? It shows the true meaning of Christmas and I believe Christianity as well.
Unfortunately, Christmas is losing its meaning, I agree. I think It's up to Christians like me to bring the true meaning back. It's the celebration of the birth of Christ. A time ot be a good person and to make yourself a better person for the upcoming year.
I think it's good that children get rewarded for being good. I don't think it's good when children are spoilt even thought they've been naughty.
I'm sorry for what I'm about to type, but I mean it in a good way,
I think you should show more respect to Christianity and well Christmas.
"HOW FOOLISH...!!!" I think that is a bit disrespectful.
It is possible to achieve lasting happiness throught other religions other than Buddhism. The Dalai Lama said so and I agree. Christianity has its eight deadly sins and has their remedies! That's like a way to overcome negative emotions! Awesome, right?
I respect your opinions but I don't agree with some of them, as some of them appear to be disrespectful, "Now I think Christmas is a Christian/Capitalist Gang-bang Brainwash training camp for youth...:eek:"
Just keep in mind what I said. Please be a bit more respecful, because I don't think that is the Buddhist thing to do. I count myself as Buddhist and Christian.
I apologise if I have come across as rude, or misunderstood what you have written. Again, I am very sorry if any offense is taken. Sorry about this.
(oh an nice to meet you both! I'm new!)
There aren't too many Christians I know who believe that their dear Lord came into this world so that merchants could get rich on people spending all their money on things nobody needs.
A lot of us on this website are culturally Christian and it remains a part of our dharma. However, it goes both ways. There are those Fox-News types insisting that people use the words "Merry Christmas" or go out of business. Now, I grew up with cheerful songs of "Happy Holidays" on the radio and don't understand their claim that we're on a new slippery slope towards hell and the demise of our civilization.
In the Orthodox Church, the season of Advent is a strict fast and in the Western (Catholic) Church Advent is still not Christmas. Nowadays Christmas begins on Nov 1 and ends on Dec 25th. Even if I were to insist on my own way, my Christmas would not begin until 8 p.m. on Dec 24 and would end no sooner than Jan 6.
Christmas is beautiful if you have children 6 and 7 and younger, but it is also a wasteful curse that causes a lot of meanness, too. Each year there are lots of robberies, burglaries, and so forth committed so that people can bring some "joy" home to those they love.
You don't have to play these games with 'me'.
You can be HONEST..you think I am wrong.
I don't care even a bit... about your inter-cultural tenderness.
I think YOU are wrong.
Some of these guys here might stand on protocol. Stuff like that.
They might beat around the bush
trying to gently persuade you...
me...
NO!
please...As your older brother...
who disagrees.
"Why do you still even consider Christianity?!"
I feel like private messaging you, just to tell you this:
it's 99% likely Jesus never existed
(because no historian of his time EVER recorded him) :eek:,,,,,weird considering they were just getting good at recording things...
God is a lie that doesn't make sense like SANTA.
But the 1% I left out!!!!
is because of a certain gospel of St.Thomas, which is ...I believe not accepted by the church officially..
It says something like Jesus himself said to st.thomas..
"GODS house is not in a church made for man, to honor him.
BUT in every single stone and piece of wood that church is made of..."
This is BUDDHIST teaching!!! I believe IF ... okay Jesus did exist (which he most probably DID NOT he was likely a SANTA....do your research...properly..)
IF he (jesus) wasn't just a close minded capitalist, he would HAVE TO AGREE with the Buddhas teachings.
HE WOULD HAVE TO ...OUR ELSE HE'D BE WRONG..
THERE IS NO QUESTION OF THAT.
the question is, who came first the Buddha or the Jesus?
I personally believe , whatever call me a fuckin heretic,
That Jesus (if he existed)
did catch wind of Buddhas teachings, but those teachings wouldn't produce a Warrior state (cough cough manifest destiny) (cough USA)
Jesus died in a very Buddhist way...a show of compassion
to suffer ALL OF OUR KARMA (take all of our sins)
HE was a champion. A REAL BUDDHA. :eek: Ahmen to that, seriously!
But the people afterwards that TOLD YOU, the story
are PERVERSE.
THEY are wrong, the people who wrote the bible WAYYYYY after the death of Jesus..
they..LIKE THE CHURCH are telling you what's what.
They wanted profit !!!!
THERE IS NO QUESTION OF THIS,
They tried to conquer PEOPLES and PLACES.
you think JESUS wanted THAT.. NO
"THEY" WANTED THAT..
Christianity is wrong bro,
let me just tell you that, there are saints among them who I admire, but they are just Buddhists in disguise...
Why not just go to Christmas with an open mind and an open heart without any of the baggage?
I might even say I am a Christian. I think Jesus probably did exist, and probably said some pretty smart things. If the stories are to believed, he sacrificed his life to prove a point in a way that would never, ever be forgotten, not unlike the Buddhist priests who self-immolated during the Vietnam war.
I find the Bible a dreadful document, filled with inaccuracy, contradiction, and self-justified acts of unimaginable cruelty and horror. If you just read what Jesus said, however--at least according to the writers--he must have been a Buddha, or at least something close to it. He talked about love, and tolerance, and humility, in a culture that--if you go by the Bible--was wrought with violence and suffering.
In the same way as the Buddha, the Christ was forced to work with the tools at his disposal to reach a very difficult and resistant audience. His background was Judaism and the Torah (the Old Testament), so that was what he used, just like the Buddha worked within the framework of Hinduism.
Ultimately, Jesus did something brilliant. He martyred himself, ensuring his words would live for thousands of years. Unfortunately, the meaning of those words has become twisted and defiled for power and greed. The truth, however, is sometimes still discovered by some, and it those fortunate, illuminated souls who I consider "true" Christians.
Twice in my lifetime, I have been visited by a Bodhisattva in a dream. The first was Kwan Yin. She appeared to me in extra-dimensional space, a field of pure, infinite blueness. She smiled at me, chanting something in an unfamiliar language. Then she disintegrated into the field of blue, replaced by a great stuppa bearing a symbol. At the time the symbol was unfamiliar to me, but now I believe it was Om in Sanskrit. I may never know for sure. The dream changed my life, and I never saw things quite the same.
The second Bodhisattva was Jesus Christ. This dream was far less personal, as I was merely one of many standing before Christ as he spoke. He said many things, but one thing stayed with me. He explained that he felt the cross was a horrid symbol for Christianity, an image of violence that distracted from his true message. He never intended for people to get so hung up (pardon the pun) about his sacrifice. His intended message was that even death is not to be feared, nor the suffering of the body. All suffering may be transcended through faith in the presence of God; or, to put it in more Buddhist terms, purity of mind through universal awareness. Finally, he suggested that the peace symbol would have been a far more suitable choice of symbols for his teachings.
From that day forward, I have kept the peace symbol as my personal, private nod to Christ, the great Bodhisattva. Maybe he didn't exist at all. It matters not one whit. When all is said and done, Christ is just a thought in our heads. So is the Buddha. What they mean is all up to us.
Happy Holidays.
~ AD
http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=129
Namaste
You're most welcome - thanks 4 the feedback.
There's quite a few articles at that site. The first I read was become your own therapist.
Here's another page I just found -
http://www.soulfulliving.com/learning_to_stay.htm
Namaste
Let me tell you why it's wrong to denigrate someone else's religion.
You have no idea what direction each individual must take on their spiritual journey. None. You think you do. But you have no idea.
You don't know what other people respond to spiritually. You don't know why other people respond spiritually to things. You also don't know how they're responding internally to these things. You have no idea.
Buddhism may be my chosen path but that's completely irrelevant to anyone else and their own journey. They have theirs and I have mine and that's a good thing, not a bad one. Diversity in spiritual practice strengthens all spiritual practice.
The only sane thing to do is relate to each other through our paths' similarities, not divide ourselves with its differences. This way we are forced to see why we should feel respect for the different religions and spiritual practices that help guide and comfort our fellow human beings.
You think you're being honest in this post. And I'm sure you are. But you're definitely not being wise, thoughtful, intelligent, skillful, or caring and the inflexibility you express is an extreme, the kind of extreme Buddhism teaches you to avoid like the plague.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
You need to do your research properly.
I have known Christians, Jews, and Muslims who are better Buddhists than some of the Buddhists I know. Hence, all religions should be respected.
And when the Dalai Lama says that all religions should be respected, I believe that he's not being politically correct ... I believe he means it literally and sincerely. Hence, all religions should be respected.
I suspect the issue is not the religion itself, but the examples of practice that you have observed ... each person is only doing the best they are able at that point in time. Compassion, empathy, and loving-kindness are lightest way to handle it.
Christmas is a time to rejoice in the example of compassion that Christ showed us. Look at his words, not at the interpretations that have been overlaid onto his words, and not at the church doctrine. The spirit of the Buddha is there.
What's your big hang-up with it? I believed in Santa when I was little and you know what, I'll tell my kids that Santa exists too! I didn't have mental issues when I found out the truth. I thought it was all pretty funny really.
IF you think capitalism is evil.
America never has been and hardly is a warrior state. But really, what does this have to do with Christmas?
Is this thread perchance related to the POST SOME NICENESS thread? I mean, is it a pseudo-parody or something?
Ever hear of the Roman historian Josephus?
My word, you really don't like Christmas! It'll all be over with in a month, thank Santa! You really don't have to take all this on by yourself, though.
A lot of us hate having to be all cheery when we're really not in the mood.
I hear that when Spinoza got bent out of shape he wrote in Latin. It kinda changed the content of what he initially had in mind, but it was a good exercise in restraint (whatever the heck that is!).
Very true. I just can't believe how many people there are out there who hate feasting, free stuff, great deals, good music, charity, and lit-up houses. I mean no matter what your financial standing, there's plenty to like about this holiday.
*psst* the same could be said of the Buddha...
God means different things to different people, even within Christianity.
Many people would replace "God" in that sentence with "rebirth."
Basically, if a religion is helping someone in any way, why crap all over it? All religions, including Buddhism, have shown the potential to be twisted and manipulated to support hatred, violence, and prejudice. Some horrible, disgusting things have been done in the name of "Buddhism" and "loving-kindness."
You'll find essentially all religions have the same core teachings and are the same at their absolute heart. But just as some people "click" more with Tibetan Buddhism than Zen, and some click more with Zen more than Theravada, etc... some people just click more with religions by other names.
Once again, lots of people feel the same way about our scriptures. No matter what religion you go to, you're going to have look past the fluff to get to the heart.
The Buddha understood the need for disguise, including what's commonly called "Buddhism" these days.
Oh, right, and as for Christmas... well, we're not Christian, but it's a huge tradition in my family. It's one of maybe two times a year my family actually gets together, and we go all out. Everything is what you make of it...
Do you really find it necessary to vent all this, shall I say "blunt-force energy" all over the place? I mean, perhaps you could start a venting thread and not be cropping up shouting about this and that all over the place. It's not nice, for instance (as in this thread), to lure people in with a potentially inviting "A Christmas Thought," and then throw hot water in their faces.
You're leaving graffiti all over the place and it's meant to provocate, seems to me. I hope you are not really as angry as you sometimes appear to be, because I think you are a spring of great depth. You have an authenticity (genuine source = authority) about you that need not be tamed so much as focussed.
Anyhow, please try to focus a bit more and consider the idea of not starting up threads every time something comes into your head. You were making such progress, I thought.
May all be well with you. I still think you're the real deal.
Fondly,
Nirvy
BTW, I can find no mention of church or churches anywhere in the Gospel of Thomas. The quote in question (vide supra) is from logion 77:
"Jesus said:
I am the ;ight that is above them all.
I am the All.
The All comes forth from me,
and the All reaches towards me.
Cleave the wood, I am there;
lift up the stone,
and you shall find me there.
This statement dismisses the baggage that comes with all this likable stuff, and I would argue that people of extremely low financial standing probably don't have the capacity to appreciate conspicuous consumption that you assign to them. Christmas puts a magnifying glass on inequality, making it one of the biggest (if not the biggest) causes of debt. It also tends to exacerbate familial dysfunction and religious differences (US evangelicals have effectively turned "Merry Christmas" into hate speech).
That is, it is not the consumption, the dysfunction and everything but the way in which you perceive and react to these things? So isn't it that its not Christamas that we should change but ourselves?
It was such a delightful night, simply flowing from experience to experience, without any expectation or destination; pure serendipity. And a perfect vision of Christmas in the city I shall never forget.
Here's wishing you serendipity.
~ AD
This is a bankrupt argument. Should we cease trying to eradicate rape and torture, or tell victims that it is their reaction to the violations and not the violations themselves that is indeed the problem? Reducing worldly problems to issues of mere perception eliminates compassion.
Nisargadatta Maharaj said, "In my world, nothing ever goes wrong." Compassion drives us to ease suffering wherever we find it, but it doesn't mean we must fall victim to the same illusions as the ones who suffer from them. If we look at the world and see evil, our vision is clouded by passion and judgment. Compassion is the key to everything. The problems of the human world may be illusory, but the suffering is real. In the process of working out our "illusory" problems, we help ease suffering and make the world a more fertile environment for awakening.
If everybody woke up, all the problems would vanish like shadows exposed to the light of day.
~ AD
This was my point. I was refuting the argument that we shouldn't try to make changes in our circumstances. Perhaps I should have put it this way: "Reducing worldly problems to mere perception eliminates compassionate action".
Rape is obviously a terrible thing. It is clear that we should end rape.
It is not so clear that we should end Christmas.
However, in either case, is it not part of Buddhist philosophy that suffering is self created? If you have PTSD, wouldn't a Buddhist say that this is created within the mind, and that the associated suffering can thus be ended in the mind?
That is to say one shouldn't allow violence but if violence occurs, one shouldn't form attachments to it.
Isn't this a basic concept in Buddhism?
Yes, I agree that Christianity has grown corrupt in some ways and that some of the stuff of the bible is misunderstood or strange. But I look at the core of Christianity, it teaches love and compassion etc.
The Dalai Lama said that he thinks of God as love, a really powerful unconditional, compassionate love. He does not accept the traditional old man in the sky but he thinks of Him as love.
That quote from the gospel of St. Thomas makes me think of Celtic Christianity. Celtic Christians believe that God flows through everything (and jesus is the son of God, he has God in him so that's why he can be found in the wood and the stone).
Clear the cobwebs of Christianity and you will see a wonderful religion much like Buddhism, clear the cobwebs and coprruption of all religions and you will see freedom from suffering and lasting happiness being taught in different ways. As I wrote in another post, Christianity has its own way of overcoming negative emotions through the eight deadly sins and their remedies. I am not a religious Christian.
Yes, people who a poor become more in debt after Christmas, but there are people who help them. Also, their act of giving makes them happier and therefore they learn to be happy by being good, by looking within. Is it not a Buddhist teaching that those who a poor can still have lasting happiness?
Here's a quote I found in the book, "Buddhism for busy people":
'A poor man, Depa, once found an enormously valuable jewel. Being a person of little desire, and content with his small income, Depa pndered to whom he should give the jewel.He tried to think who was in most need and suddenly was inspired to give the jewel to King Prasenajit. The king was astounded as there were many poor and needy people, but Depa said, "O King it is you who is the poorest, because you lack contentment!"
Christmas teaches ( and the poor) everyone to detach themselves from material things and to give whenever one can. As they feel good when they give, people begin to learn how to achieve lasting happiness.
Christianity is a wonderful religion like every religion in the world, after you wipe out the corruption and cobwebs. Christians who do this, I agree a 'true' Christians.
God is everywhere. I saw on this TV show once which had all the major religious leaders of the world, including the Dalai Lama, talking at a conference. One priest or bishop (I think he was from africa,I'm not sure) said that he was asked where was God when terrible things happened? Where was God when the twin towers were destroyed? Where was God in natural disasters? The Bishop/priest replied that God was there. he was in or with all the people who helped after the disaster. Those firemen who rescued people trapped in rubble etc. That is where God is.
I believe Jesus was enlightened. He sacrificed himself for all sentient beings. Unfortunately, Christianity has been corrupted in the years but the true Christianity can still be found! True Christianity can still come out at Christmas. Jesus and Buddha were very much alike. Unfortunately Jesus' teachings have been corrupted but like I said, true Christianity, his true teachings can still be found!The belief in God seems radical to you and foolish. But that doesn't matter. Christianity helps people today, just like Buddhism and other religions, as long as people are happy, as long as they are freeing themselves from suffering, as long as they feel they're protected, safe and loved it does not matter. If they are happy and are achieving freedom from suffering and lasting happiness, that does not matter one bit. All religions, at their core, are the same, teaching love, forgiveness compassion etc.
I'm very sorry for what I'm about to say, I hope it isn't hurtful, I'm trying to follow Dharma all the time.
I feel very sorry for you, The Found, who is hateful to things like this ( That's the inpression you've given me and I hope it's not true) and I think you should do a lot more research on Christianity. The Dalai Lama said to analyse all material that is given to you. If you do this you will see the true Christianity without all the corruption.The Dalai Lama said that you must even question and analyse the Buddha's words! (Rational)Reason and intelligence is what you need to analyse (to overcome negative emotions and achieve lasting happiness and freedom from suffering). I respect your opinions and I agree with some, well a few... of your opinions but I don't think you are following the Buddha's teaching or dharma, in my opinion. There is hate and disrespect in your words. Forgive me but maybe you should read a little more on Buddhism, because you words do not show Buddhism to me, in my opinion. I hope this helps you in some way to release that hate and maybe to show more respect to other religions which is a teaching that is in Buddhism.
I hope I have not caused you any harm with my words, I am only trying to help you.
May you be free from suffering and from hate.
"Like the bee gathering honey from the different flowers, the wise person accepts the essence of the different scriptures and sees only the good in all religions."
~ Gandhi
(Thank you Geof-Allen, I copied this quote from one of your posts.)
Oh please. I live an extremely spartan existence and I'm just fine with it. How does it exacerbate familial dysfunction? I mean I guess if you don't like your family or you argue with your spouse about who to spend time with, it could be a problem. But for those of us who like our families, it's a great time. I hardly consider the ancient, cheap Christmas lights on my house a sign of "conspicuous consumption" or inequality.
If you don't want to bring up religious differences, be like me and never talk about religion with family.
And to be honest, Christmas is a great excuse to give pretty girls nice stuff.
You asked the question and then answered it. Although I would add that the problem of whom to spend time with is not just a problem with spouses, but it's a very real problem for every child whose parents are divorced. I would also add addicted family members to the list - Christmas is the perfect time for a drunken brawl.
Bully for you. I was speaking of those who are less fortunate.
Your personal habits are irrelevant to my point. Children who get nothing from Santa are frequently in contact with children who get too much. Said children don't yet understand that Santa's gifts do not reflect their past behavior, but rather their parents' income or willingness to go into debt.
The religious differences that are highlighted are not my own family's, but society's. I saw a bumper sticker yesterday that read "We say Merry Christmas." It was clearly intended as hate speech towards those who don't celebrate Christmas or those who have the gall to use the more pluralistic "Happy Holidays".
And what about ugly girls? Did I mention that it highlights inequality?
Xmas, just like torture.
But seriously, arent you talking things a little extreme?
Isnt it better to work towards a better world internally and externally? Rather than just saying, "It's nothing to do with my view, it's just bad and wrong".
Back on the original topic. I fully intend to enjoy my cultural conditioning and go enjoy the lights, colors and well wishes. But that's just me.
What a beautiful post, Snowpaw and Geoff-Allen!
Now it's my turn to join you and Simonthepilgrim in saying something positive about Christmas. To paraphrase Tiny Tim in Dickens's A Christmas Carol (which Snowpaw earlier alluded to):
"Bless us, everyone."
It's really the colors and all my childhood memories that perk me up. My childhood is my best friend.
Happy Dec. First!
N
This is exactly what I'm advocating. Compassion dictates that we don't solely concern ourselves with perceptions.
It's on the list, albeit not very high. These days I'm able to avoid many of Christmas's more unpleasant trappings.
When we see each other again on Christmas Eve for the celebration of Holy Jesus' birth, let us do so in peace and with a good vibration and a happy mind. I think it would be wonderful. To attend the celebration with an angry disposition would be so sad. Come instead with a beautiful motivation and much love. Have no discrimination, but see everything as a golden flower, even your worst enemy. Then Christmas, which so often produces an agitated mind, will become so beautiful.
When you change your mental attitude, the external vision also changes. This is a true turning of the mind. There is no doubt about this. I am not special, but I have had experience of doing this, and it works. You people are so intelligent, so you can understand how the mind has this ability to change itself and its environment. There is no reason why this change cannot be for the better.
Some of you might think, "Oh, I want to have nothing to do with Jesus, nothing to do with the Bible." This is a very angry, emotional attitude to have towards Christianity. If you really understood, you would recognize that what Jesus taught was, "Love!" It is as simple and as profound as that. If you had true love within you, I am sure you would feel much more peaceful than you do now.
How do you normally think of love? Be honest. It is always involved with discriminations, isn't it? Just look around this room and see if anyone here is an object of your love. Why do you discriminate so sharply between friend and enemy? Why do you see such a big difference between yourself and others?
In the Buddhist teaching, this falsely discriminating attitude is called dualism. Jesus said that such an attitude is the opposite of true love. Therefore, is there any one of us who has the pure love that Jesus was talking about? If we do not, we should not criticize his teachings or feel they are irrelevent to us. We are the ones who have misunderstood, perhaps knowing the words of his teachings, but never acting upon them.
There are so many beautiful sentences in the Bible, but I do not recall reading that Jesus ever said that without your doing anything whatsoever—without preparing yourself in some way—the Holy Spirit would descend upon you, whoosh! If you do not act the way He said you should act, there is no Holy Spirit existent anywhere for you.
What I have read in the Bible has the same connotation as the Buddhist teachings on equilibrium, compassion and changing one's ego-attachment into love for others. It may not be immediately obvious how to train your mind to develop these attitudes, but it is certainly possible to do so. Only our selfishness and closed-mindedness prevent us.
With true realizations, the mind is no longer egotistically concerned with its own salvation. With true love, one no longer behaves dualistically; feeling very attached to some people, distant from others and totally indifferent to the rest. It is so simple. In the ordinary personality, the mind is always divided against itself, always fighting and disturbing its own peace.
The teachings on love are very practical. Do not put religion somewhere up in the sky and feel you are stuck down here on earth. If the actions of body, speech and mind are in accordance with loving kindness, you automatically become a truly religious person. To be religious does not mean that you attend certain teachings. If you listen to teachings and misinterpret them, you are in fact, the opposite of religious. And it is only because you do not understand a certain teaching that you abuse religion.
Lack of deep understanding leads to partisanship. The ego feels, "I am a Buddhist, therefore Christianity must be all wrong." This is very harmful to true religious feeling. You do not destroy a religion with bombs, but with hatred. More importantly, you destroy the peacefulness of your own mind. It does not matter if you express your hatred with words or not. The mere thoughts of hatred automatically destroys your peace.
From Lama Yeshe. It was Geof-Allen's (Again,thanks Geof!). Read it. Loathing is not good. I never thought that a Buddhist forum would have this much hatred towards Christianity or well... Christmas. This, I think is very sad to see.
http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=129
Firstly, you are making the mistake of confusing the attributed teachings of Christ with Christianity. I see one having very little to do with the other.
What I find surprising is the (I suspect feigned) shock expressed when people who have experienced or witnessed suffering caused by Christianity and well... Christmas dare admit that they dislike most aspects of the religion and its holiday. I don't just find the excesses of Christmas offensive, I find its very meaning offensive. I don't believe in vicarious salvation - especially not by use of torture - so when Christians celebrate the birth of their savior it just seems a bit gross to me. I'm not going to work myself into a frenzy and burn down a Christmas tree, I just choose not to participate and I can articulate my reasons. Why is that a problem?
In the 21st century, Christmas has become mostly a secular tradition involving family, charity, and rampant consumerism gone wild. Seems like every year the the Christmas junk gets put out in the department stores a little earlier. I think it's a bit nuts, personally, but it just goes to show you how much people love Christmas. It's the spirit of the thing; peace on earth, goodwill to man, etc. People are drawn to it. They feel this spirit of love and giving is missing from their everyday lives, and they want to recapture it. It's all illusion, naturally, but I can think of worse things to be attached to. Maybe it inspires some people to begin an honest journey towards real inner peace. Wouldn't that make it all worthwhile?
Is it a problem that every year the holidays come and make you feel bad?
If it teaches children that kindness is rewarded with material goods, wouldn't that make stopping the practice worthwhile?
Not really. Like I said, I just opt out of most of the stuff I dislike. It bothers other people much more than it bothers me (see Snowpaw's last post).
This is a message to both you, and TheFound:
First of all, you shouldn't blame Christianity.
That statement is just plain ignorant.
You should blame those who have wreaked havoc in the name of Christianity.
Just as many have for most major religions.
So apportion blame where it belongs, not to the whole barrel.
Secondly:
It's not the choice to not participate, that is the problem.
It is not that you articulate your reasons, that is the problem.
It is how you articulate that is the problem.
Both you, Lyssa, and TheFound articulate your sentiments in an aggressive manner, to a greater or lesser degree.
This is completely unacceptable.
Whatever your opinions may be (and nobody is denying your right to have them, if you so choose) kindly convey them in a compassionate, polite, civil and respectful manner.
This forum is open to all and everybody to share their thoughts and discuss in a civil and polite manner, what these thoughts are.
I will not have the celebrations, traditions, customs and callings of other religions ridiculed, vilified or insulted to any degree.
The people who hold these religions close to their hearts, do so because they choose to, and have made a decision to follow that calling.
Fundamentally though, this is not a discussion about beliefs.
It's a discussion about the celebration (or otherwise) of an event which comes round every year, and one to which we are party - or at least, witness to - due to living in the West, the West being largely Christian, and our upbringing in that vein.
Any exchange of perceptions and ideas, thoughts and opinions, views and comments, WILL be conducted in a manner befitting those who adhere to civil social mores and regulations.
In short, if you cannot keep a civil tongue in your head - shut up.
Right Speech also entails considering when it's better to keep the yap closed.
Got it?
Thank you.
And now -
Back to Christmas.
Whistles and bells, mirth and merriment here - with tinsel, glitter, holly, Ivy and misteltoe.
And I give a fig if it's not Buddhist.
I've just outlined, in the main, things that actually, were never originally Christian either!!
You must really hate Valentine's Day! :rolleyes:
Any holiday then is potentially offensive to some group or another. If one doesn't have a father, I'm sure Father's Day could be painful. If you've lost a loved one in the war, I bet Memorial Day would be tough. I know some Christians who don't celebrate Halloween, so imagine the inequality and low self-esteem that they suffer when they see all the candy I'm eating and giving out to children!
Ditto Valentine's Day! I haven't had a date for Valentine's Day in a good number of years, so you can imagine the suffering at seeing all those happy couples.
So what's your point? Not everyone can enjoy some holiday, so it's no good at all?
That isn't what Christmas teaches. Christmas doesn't teach anything. Parents do. And Christmas can be used to teach wonderful things, a reminder of what we as Buddhists practice. If you fail to take the opportunity, you're only hurting yourself:
QFT.
And you are making the mistake of attributing Christianity with the crap people have done in its name. Have you seen some of the things that have been done in the name of your own religion? At the heart of Buddhism is the core teachings of the Buddha, but people can corrupt those things for their purpose, and the same is true of all religions.
Christmas and Christianity isn't inherently "evil" or "bad" any more than what you practice and believe in.
I wasn't talking about "havoc", I was talking about Christmas. Are you implying that Christians are not responsible for Christmas?
I would like an example of my "aggressive manner". I contend (and have stated) that people are oversensitive about this subject and view any criticism as hateful. As we've seen on this thread, just saying you dislike Christmas gets peoples' hackles up, and now it has evoked a threat of censorship.
Any degree??? It's out of bounds to say that people spend too much at Christmas? It's out of bounds to relate a personal negative experience? No discussion allowed on a discussion forum?
Again, since I was named in your rebuke, I would like to know what specifically in my posts you deem uncivil. Is expressing an unpopular view uncivil? I think telling people to shut up and then providing a sanctimonious definition of right speech is exceedingly rude, but that's just me.
You do realize that we are adults and that this way of relating to us is not only unnecessary, it's annoying and counterproductive. Please reference your own "manner befitting" recommendations.
This should be an indicator of how ego driven you are. Fed's message wasn't just for you.
Sure they are, they certainly aren't responsible for how you loath it though. That would be you.
I'm attributing to Christianity what Christians have formally and informally informed society to attribute to it. You're arguing that "good" activities done in the name of a religion may be attributed to adherence to said religion, but "bad" things done in the name of a religion may not be attributed to religious adherence, even if the adherent him or herself tells you that this is the case. This is nonsense.
I was named in the indictment, and the quote was mine. Speaking of Christ, I'm reminded of something he said: "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (Mathew 7:3) Unless you're enlightened, I don't think it appropriate for you to go around pointing out the ego-driven natures of others, but thanks anyway.
Wouldn't you feel better if xmas didn't bother you? I'm sure you would be cool with everybody no matter whether they got you xmas presents or not, whether they celebrated xmas or not. Right now it seems your holding a grudge, and that does nothing but make you suffer, you know this right?
Yet the message was for both you and TheFound, so if the quote was all you care about, the whole message was for you.
Unless your enlightened I would say the same to you about jumping to dismiss other peoples observations.
I think my supposed anger has been greatly exaggerated in the minds of the Christmas-lovers here. I don't like Christmas and don't celebrate it, period. I contributed to this thread because I thought (wrongly, apparently) that the opinions of those who dislike Christmas would add to the discussion. I also dislike cauliflower, but that doesn't seem like much of a problem to me either. It is possible to have a very full and meaningful existence without having to celebrate Christmas.
we get to see our families and friends, get some time off work, get some goodies, give some goodies, watch weird old cartoons on tv, watch National Lampoons Christmas Vacation on tv, watch a Christmas Story on tv.....wait, maybe its tv that i like and not so much christmas??
seriously though.
there are a lot of things to enjoy about the holidays, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, and on and on and on.
If we get some extra time to spend with family and friends then its good in my book.