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It is possible to have a very full and meaningful existence without having to celebrate Christmas.
Oh of course it is. And you should have a good time at xmas just like people who celebrate it. And sure there are bad sides, but keep in mind that there are good sides. If I'm honest you came across very black and white about Christmas. I think what hit me the most was when you said you didnt like it when people got you xmas presents. The only reason you don't like that is because of you. If it was any other time you would be fine, right? So just because it was for christmas you didnt like it? Do you not see that issue lies with you and you alone?
Listen Lyssa, any offence I caused was unintentional. I hope you have a very happy non-xmas.
I think what hit me the most was when you said you didnt like it when people got you xmas presents. The only reason you don't like that is because of you. If it was any other time you would be fine, right? So just because it was for christmas you didnt like it? Do you not see that issue lies with you and you alone?
I don't like it when I am given a Christmas gift because it makes me feel bad for several reasons:
1) I think the person purchased it for me out of obligation,
2) I don't have a reciprocal gift to give him or her and
3) it's rarely something that I will use or enjoy.
I've had someone who gave me a gift actually look hurt and surprised that I didn't have one for him. Some people just can't believe that anyone would opt out. However, I've had lots of people confide in me that they would love to be able to do so but feel unable to for some reason.
Listen Lyssa, any offence I caused was unintentional. I hope you have a very happy non-xmas.
Same to you.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I don't like it when I am given a Christmas gift because it makes me feel bad for several reasons:
1) I think the person purchased it for me out of obligation,
Assumption.
How do you know that in every case? maybe they gave it to you to make you happy, give you pleasure, and because they like you.
That's actually why I give people presents....
2) I don't have a reciprocal gift to give him or her
That's your guilty problem, it has nothing to do with Christmas. it has everything to do with the fact that you have chosen to opt out - but others haven't.
and
3) it's rarely something that I will use or enjoy.
Then thank them graciously, tell them it's very kind of them, and put it in a cupboard for three months, then get a friend to accidentally drop it.
or give it to Charity.
or give it on to someone else.
Or swap it with someone who sees it and loves it.
Or just give it away....
Presumably when it is something you will use and enjoy, you'll keep it, use it and enjoy it?
or would that be hypocrisy?
I've had someone who gave me a gift actually look hurt and surprised that I didn't have one for him. Some people just can't believe that anyone would opt out.
maybe you should send out an e-mail - now - saying something to the effect:
"Well folks, it's that time of year again! Christmas approaches, and as many of you know, being Buddhist, it's not a festival I wish to celebrate.
So I'm asking you all now - please, please do not Buy me anything!
I won't be purchasing gifts for anyone, and I won't be joining in any of the celebrations. not even a card.
So here's to hoping you all have a good time, in your own way, and rest assured I shall be having a good time in mine.
Please therefore, again - no gifts, no cards, nothing.
Refusal offends, and I'd hate to refuse your kindness. But you have been warned! Include me at your peril!
Thanks!!"
However, I've had lots of people confide in me that they would love to be able to do so but feel unable to for some reason.
So have I.
But that's their problem.
Just as this one's yours.
You're arguing that "good" activities done in the name of a religion may be attributed to adherence to said religion
I'm arguing that good and bad things are done in the names of all religions, and it's unfair to mark Christianity (and by extension, Christmas) as "inherently ebil" or something unless you're willing to do the same to your own.
I think my supposed anger has been greatly exaggerated in the minds of the Christmas-lovers here. I don't like Christmas and don't celebrate it, period. I contributed to this thread because I thought (wrongly, apparently) that the opinions of those who dislike Christmas would add to the discussion.
Come on, Lyssa; you disagreed that there could be anything to like about Christmas, suggested we should try to eradicate Christmas entirely, and basically called yourself a "victim," comparing Christmas (and Christianity) with rape and torture:
Should we cease trying to eradicate rape and torture, or tell victims that it is their reaction to the violations and not the violations themselves that is indeed the problem?
So have I.
But that's their problem.
Just as this one's yours.
True, but that's not a very compassionate reaction. I feel sorry for all these people who are participating out of a sense of guilt or obligation, and they make up a significant part of the Christmas-celebrating population. Many don't even realize that opting out is an option.
I'm arguing that good and bad things are done in the names of all religions, and it's unfair to mark Christianity (and by extension, Christmas) as "inherently ebil" or something unless you're willing to do the same to your own.
I'm perfectly willing to do the same to my own: I don't even call myself a Buddhist, just a practitioner. However, Buddhism does not have as a central tenet the concept of vicarious salvation, which is what I find distasteful about Christianity (and by extension, Christmas).
... and basically called yourself a "victim," comparing Christmas (and Christianity) with rape and torture...
The quote was taken completely out of context. I was refuting (with an extreme example) the argument that we should not attempt to change outer circumstances. And I don't recall referring to myself as a victim.
Can we go to the heart of the question, the central cause of the confusion?
What actually takes place in the mind when one suffers, using Christmas as the example? Is anyone here even aware, deeply truly aware through direct observation of the process of suffering?
Without that observation, it seems to me we are just chasing our tails, taking turns being the teeth and the tail.
Although I shall be celebrating Christmas/Yule/Solstice, it will be in the way that I choose, as seems the case of all those who have expressed 'pro' views. I think that Lyssa is only expressing a view which, however different from our own,deserves our respect.
It is surely the case that, elsewhere on these boards, attention has been brought to a celebration which includes ritual slaughter of animals. Members have seen fit to criticise, wiiyhout sanction. Thus do we demonstrate our underlying attitude. What name do we give it? Concern? humanitarianism? or is it subtle racism, discrimination, hypocrisy even?
So, we cannot reject Lyssa's comments because they lack respect: we have done so ourselves.
Additionally, she speaks for the many for whom Christianity is abhorrent. Are we trying to deny there are such? or that they are somehow 'bad people' and have no right to express their anger at churches which have, self-evidently, let them down?
We listen with empathetic pain and sympathy-filled words to those who have been let down and abused by parents, siblings or partners. We must, surely extend the same compassion to those let down and abused by "Mother Church"
For myself, who dare to call myself Christian among other things, this is when I am most aware of those who have been hurt by the very organisations which claim to have care of them. That, for me, is an integral part of the story of a baby bastard born in a back-street.
Members have seen fit to criticise, wiiyhout sanction. Thus do we demonstrate our underlying attitude. What name do we give it? Concern? humanitarianism? or is it subtle racism, discrimination, hypocrisy even?
I call it crazy if you don't see the positive with the negative. And thus the balance of things. I've been there and done that and yes I was wrong.
So, we cannot reject Lyssa's comments because they lack respect: we have done so ourselves.
My comments and I'm sure others have come from an insight that Lyssa's comments come from suffering rather than peace. If I didn't respect them I would have told the troll to go away.
Additionally, she speaks for the many for whom Christianity is abhorrent. Are we trying to deny there are such? or that they are somehow 'bad people' and have no right to express their anger at churches which have, self-evidently, let them down?
Am I a bad person for pointing this out as being not beneficial to anybody to loath anything?
I agree with some of your opinions and The Found's. I agree with you in osme things like losing money etc. You have some very, very good points!
"It is possible to have a very full and meaningful existence without having to celebrate Christmas. "
I agree completely.
But unfortunately you do show anger to Christmas. And I have a quote to back it up.
Quote:
"Cool, my point was that it might be worth you working with your loathing of christmas too. "
This says to me that you're encouraging someone to increase their hatred (therefore making them suffer more).
I understand that some people like you do not like Christmas. Remember, I agree with some of your points but you should not encourage loathing of a religious tradition, from what Buddhism I have studied, this is not the Buddhist way.
I think we should all take a deep,deep breath, relax and think about how we should act. This is a Buddhist forum so we should post according to the Buddha's teachings as well, I mean that we should not type in an angry way, that still brings suffering. We should type and post according to the Buddha's teachings.
"I would argue that people of extremely low financial standing probably don't have the capacity to appreciate conspicuous consumption that you assign to them. Christmas puts a magnifying glass on inequality, making it one of the biggest (if not the biggest) causes of debt"
I agree. although I do not think it is that extreme, but I do agree with you.
It doesn't look like you have a grudge against Christianity, only Christmas. But The Found looks like he does.
Here are some of The Found's words.
"You don't have to play these games with 'me'.
You can be HONEST..you think I am wrong."
What games?
"I don't care even a bit... about your inter-cultural tenderness.
I think YOU are wrong. "
This is very sad.
"Why do you still even consider Christianity?!"
Because I believe in true love and compassion and self sacrifice for the benefit of all sentient beings. I also believe in the goodness of humanity. That is where God is. And I also believe in the 'oneness' of all religions. I mean that all religions should be close and not focus on their differences. All these religions can help eachother.
"IF he (jesus) wasn't just a close minded capitalist"
A. Wasn't Jesus poor? He didn't believe in lots of money, I am sure of that.
You posted in another thread which had a story of this homeless guy following you. You said in that thread you were an advanced Buddhist.
"Christianity is wrong bro,"
"Why do you still even consider Christianity?!"
"I don't care even a bit... about your inter-cultural tenderness."
If you are an advanced Buddhist then I must have the wrong understanding of Buddhism.
"God is a lie that doesn't make sense like SANTA."
Then I wish you to experience true love , then it will make sense what God is and represents. You don't have to accept him, I'm just saying that it'll make sense what he represents.
I am very sorry about that, but I had to get that off my chest. I don't think that I was following Dharma typing the replies to The Found's quotes. I am sorry.
... But unfortunately you do show anger to Christmas. And I have a quote to back it up.
Quote:
"Cool, my point was that it might be worth you working with your loathing of christmas too. "
This says to me that you're encouraging someone to increase their hatred (therefore making them suffer more).
You're actually quoting Kikujiro, and I think you misconstrued his meaning. By "work on" he meant that I should try to diminish the Christmas loathing, not increase it. Please re-read the exchange.
"Cool, my point was that it might be worth you working with your loathing of christmas too. "
This says to me that you're encouraging someone to increase their hatred (therefore making them suffer more).
I think you're attributing that quote to Lyssa but it was Kikujiro who said it, which might make you look at that quote in a different light. Kikujiro was encouraging the opposite, that a person who loathes something should look internally rather than blaming the external, and work on themselves first and foremost.
True, but that's not a very compassionate reaction. I feel sorry for all these people who are participating out of a sense of guilt or obligation, and they make up a significant part of the Christmas-celebrating population. Many don't even realize that opting out is an option.
I feel no guilt or shame in giving gifts and getting gifts in return. Seems like a reasonable business transaction to me. But with a lot more pizazz. :cool:
And in response to the charge that Christmas makes people loses money? One word: budget. Everyone should have one.
I remember one night many years ago, when I was walking around downtown D.C. around Christmas time. As I wandered amidst the shops and buildings, all gaily decorated and glowing with lights, it started snowing; just the kind of charming snow you see in all the Christmas movies. Suddenly the world was transformed. I strolled through a glitzy downtown hotel, where a string quartet played Mozart. After soaking in the music for a short time, I continued onward. Walking across the street, I encountered an outdoor ice-skating rink, with holiday music playing and people of all ages skating around in their coats and scarves. Completely enchanted, I rented a pair of skates and joined them. I didn't even know I could still skate. I learned when I was a little girl, but it had been many years since I strapped on a pair of skates. What bliss, gliding around the rink in the company of all those happy people!
It was such a delightful night, simply flowing from experience to experience, without any expectation or destination; pure serendipity. And a perfect vision of Christmas in the city I shall never forget.
Here's wishing you serendipity.
~ AD
I was transported. This rings so true. Thanks so much, AriettaDolente!
Lovely.
_________________
America never has been and hardly is a warrior state.
But really, what does this have to do with Christmas? —KOB
Jesus! What did I start?!... :eekblue:
I feel kind of bad now, about what I said...I was drinking a bit that night..:p
Never comes out 100% skillfully after 5-6 Canadian beers..
let me clarify a few things, I don't like Christianity the religion..or Christmas.
I like Christians though.. most if not all of my family is/are passive/non-practicing Christians, and they have done a whole world of good to me.
I don't however like at all those psycho Christians who go overboard..condemn little kids to hell, hate black people, view women as servants of man...follow the bible to the letter...faith healers...etc..etc..
I don't believe much in Jesus as an actual person, check out Zeitgeist the movie and it's sequel
But...Someone.. maybe the Buddha or Dalai Lama said something like , "to each his own "CURE" for our disease of Samsara...you know if it's going to help the human condition , take it. "
I just think Buddhism is a much better..well thought..detailed cure. More realistic....
I guess in conclusion my anger was misdirected; you guys ever see those hologram pictures where you have to stare at them for a while to see what the picture is?
you know what...lets just go with:
the
FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!!!
wouldn't you be pissed if people took that seriously?
Hey, Lyssa do you feel good when someone says 'Merry Christmas' to you? Or 'God Bless you!'
They're blessings. Are you okay with them? Just wondering.
It depends on the spirit in which they are intended. As I mentioned earlier, US Evangelicals have essentially turned "Merry Christmas" into hate speech. I found the "We say Merry Christmas" bumper sticker to be extremely offensive, but a sincere niceties are pleasant, even if some of them (e.g. "Jesus loves you!") communicate a lack of sensitivity or even a bit of arrogant ignorance. I know (most) people mean well.
Hmm Lyssa, it may be a cultural thing. Over here in England, Kent we don't seem to have that "Were Christian! Are you an *Da da daaaaaa* Athiest? " thing here. Its all just "hey happy xmas! Oh you dont do xmas? oh ok..... Happy xmas!"
If you have to reject Christmas, don't you have to reject all of humanity? It seems to me there is nothing in humanity that is not born from and gives birth to conflict. (except Buddhism of course, [cough cough])
What I find surprising is the (I suspect feigned) shock expressed when people who have experienced or witnessed suffering caused by Christianity and well... Christmas dare admit that they dislike most aspects of the religion and its holiday. I don't just find the excesses of Christmas offensive, I find its very meaning offensive. I don't believe in vicarious salvation - especially not by use of torture - so when Christians celebrate the birth of their savior it just seems a bit gross to me. I'm not going to work myself into a frenzy and burn down a Christmas tree, I just choose not to participate and I can articulate my reasons. Why is that a problem?
Lyssa, please allow me to respond to this. I address a matter that your statement implies you are not informed about. This is kinda an FYI post, so please don't think I'm trying to do anything here but explain. I have underlined above what I believe conveys misunderstanding on your part. Some others, I believe, have taken some objection to this, also. Christmas does not have the "meaning" you ascribe to it. It's about the celebration of the birth of the child. Where would we be if that stopped happening?
Christmas is really about "The Incarnation," Emmanuel, "God Himself Being With Us." Christmas is the main Christian Feast that just focusses on the vulnerable, beautiful humanity of Christ. Children are so beautiful because in them we see almost pure potentiality. Therefore, the birth of the Christ Child is a very auspicious and exalted occasion.
As the quintessential feast of an Incarnational religion, Christmas has nothing at all to do with vicarious salvation or death by torture. It's about celebrating a new life and a new beginning. It's really largely rooted in pagan custom and comes at a time when a little extra cheer might very well come in handy to help people through a long winter.
Moreover, it is just simply not true that Christianity is a religion purely about vicarious salvation. In the Catholic and (especially) the Eastern Orthodox trunks of the Church, there is theology about the deification of the human person, who by grace and compassionate resolve becomes more like unto God. Jesus said [Matt 5], "Be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect." That is, through Christ's example of self-sacrificing love the human being is lifted out of self into a greater and greater communion with eternal truth (oneness, love...)
The incarnation at Christmas is the birth of the Christian's big brother (St. Paul calls him "the Firstfruits" of them that slept.) An innocent lamb born into the world to turn the hearts of the fathers towards their children.
I maintain that it is the high theology of the church and not the kerygma of the first and second centuries that steers the soul of the Christian. The kerygma is just the mechanism to build up the body of the Church, but is not its summation.
________
Christmas Collect from the Book of Common Prayer
(1st Sunday after Christmas Day)
Almighty God, who hast poured upon us the new light of thine incarnate Word; Grant that the same light, enkindled in our hearts, may shine forth in our lives; through the same Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever. Amen.
Lyssa, you're confusing Gnosticism, which is syncretist, with mysticism. Look them up. While you're at it, take a look at panentheism, too.
The definitive scholarship on the subject of Christian mysticism, as far as I know, is R.A. Knox's Enthusiasm (1950).
Mysticism is found in all the World's religions and is the great unifier of the soul with higher reality. In Islam, there are Sufis, In Judaism there are the Hasidic Jews, and the list goes on and on. Are you saying that somehow Christians are exempt from this faculty or phenomenon, and that if they differ from the model you have of them they're mere Gnostics?
I know plenty of Christians whose religion I'd describe as Theosis. They are working out their own salvation in the world. They are Roman Catholic, Russian Orthodox, Episcopalians, and non-denominational, the ones I know.
Just look up Theosis in Wikipedia. From the beginning the Christian Church has been full of people not seeing the At-One-Ment as something already won for them, but as something to be strived for in their own lives. Proof can be found in the words and records that they left behind. From the beginning...
Lyssa, you're confusing Gnosticism, which is syncretist, with mysticism. Look them up. While you're at it, take a look at panentheism, too.
The definitive scholarship on the subject of Christian mysticism, as far as I know, is R.A. Knox's Enthusiasm (1950).
Mysticism is found in all the World's religions and is the great unifier of the soul with higher reality. In Islam, there are Sufis, In Judaism there are the Hasidic Jews, and the list goes on and on. Are you saying that somehow Christians are exempt from this faculty or phenomenon, and that if they differ from the model you have of them they're mere Gnostics?
I know plenty of Christians whose religion I'd describe as Theosis. They are working out their own salvation in the world. They are Roman Catholic, Russian Orthodox, Episcopalians, and non-denominational, the ones I know.
Just look up Theosis in Wikipedia. From the beginning the Christian Church has been full of people not seeing the At-One-Ment as something already won for them, but as something to be strived for in their own lives. Proof can be found in the words and records that they left behind. From the beginning...
Girl, love is a wonderful motivator.
I'll pass on the assignments. I was raised by devout Christians and I am surrounded by them daily; none of them are mystics and all of them are bigots. There's simply no way to dress up that pig, so to speak, in a way that will make it appealing to me. Different strokes.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
True, but that's not a very compassionate reaction. I feel sorry for all these people who are participating out of a sense of guilt or obligation, and they make up a significant part of the Christmas-celebrating population. Many don't even realize that opting out is an option.
It's got nothing to do with compassion!
It is what it is!
YOU have a problem with Christmas - and that IS your problem!
Your feelings of sorrow for other people are both inappropriate (Why 'feel sorry' for them?) and unnecessary (Do you think they want you to feel sorry for them? Why feel sorry for them when they're obviously enjoying most of it?) Feel sorry for yourself because you either can't or won't let yourself freedom to enjoy parts of it!
Opting out isn't all black and white....if you're going to opt out, do it with a glad heart and a merry soul, not a 'baah, humbug! this is bloody awful!" attitude....!
I'll pass on the assignments. I was raised by devout Christians and I am surrounded by them daily; none of them are mystics and all of them are bigots. There's simply no way to dress up that pig, so to speak, in a way that will make it appealing to me. Different strokes.
Well there's your answer. it's not what's happening, it's the people it's happening with. Christian bigots.
If you shared your home with Christians who rejoiced at your decision for you, and respected your ideas, but left the door open for a joint melding of loving compassion, you'd probably see things differently.
You have a further choice then.
Go on Buddhist retreat and separate yourself from them entirely.
And send that letter.
You didn't comment on that, but it's a valid and extremely functional option.
It's got nothing to do with compassion!
It is what it is!
YOU have a problem with Christmas - and that IS your problem!
Your feelings of sorrow for other people are both inappropriate (Why 'feel sorry' for them?) and unnecessary (Do you think they want you to feel sorry for them? Why feel sorry for them when they're obviously enjoying most of it?) Feel sorry for yourself because you either can't or won't let yourself freedom to enjoy parts of it!
Opting out isn't all black and white....if you're going to opt out, do it with a glad heart and a merry soul, not a 'baah, humbug! this is bloody awful!" attitude....!
Again, I think that the suffering I'm causing myself regarding Christmas has been greatly exaggerated. I find it obnoxious, that's all. I do believe it causes a lot of suffering for a lot of people and I have compassion for them, but I hardly think this is inappropriate. I don't find the more benign parts of the holiday appealing enough to try to stomach the rest of it. Why is that such a huge deal to everyone?
You have a further choice then.
Go on Buddhist retreat and separate yourself from them entirely.
And send that letter.
You didn't comment on that, but it's a valid and extremely functional option.
Be well.:)
Thank you for the advice, but, again, you're making the problem sound more dramatic than it is. Really, avoidance of Christmas - even loathing of Christmas - is just not the serious issue that you guys seem to think it is. Like I mentioned, I've had lots of people who are still participating in it tell me that they secretly hate it. It's probably a lot more common than people realize. Hopefully, as a result of this thread, awareness has been raised. Thank you, TheFound!
Is it really Christmas to blame for the suffering?
For example, when someone feels bad because they don't have as much money as others, is it Christmas that does this, or their own desire for a self image that includes status, and upon comparing themself in the starkness of Christmas they can no longer hold onto the self image?
Is it even possible to make such generalizations about Christmas? You could give a child a thousand gifts and teach them that happiness is a material thing, but you could also teach that same child how to give of themselves, and if there was someone who could accept that gift, and genuinely appreciate what the child gave (time, energy, thought, allowance money, etc), couldn't the child learn the goodness of giving?
My own drunk, angry, fearful and violent family holidays hurt me as a child, and I wish I had not had to experience that. But now, as an adult I can go back to that same drunk, angry, fearful and violent family and not be drawn into the bullshit. In fact, by being there and listening to them, by being calm in the face of everything, by showing that I genuinely care, I support them psychologically. I know this because to my utter amazement after the holidays and throughout the year they have started opening up to me, and being honest about themselves to me.
So the reason I have a reaction to your statements Lyssa is that it seems you deny any possibility of not being drawn into the bullshit. Where you say you are offended by the rampant materialism, I would say that it is up to you whether you are offended. Not being offended by materialism does not mean you have to accept it. Could you not on the one hand work to educate people about materialism and the suffering it causes them, and on the other be completely free from any reaction you have to materialistic people?
Could you receive a gift, fully knowing that it is bullshit, yet not be bothered by it? Is this possible?
Christmas, whilst not Ultimately to blame (because we are each responsible for our own reactions, etc., etc.), exacerbates many of our worst qualities, so I choose not to participate. My refusal to participate, as I mentioned, seems to be a bigger problem for other people than it is for me. This "situation" doesn't keep me up at night, and I frankly can believe that it is such an issue for Buddhists.
But if you apply this same philosophy to the rest of life, well it seems sad that you would have to refuse to participate in life, as life is full situations that exacerbate our own faults.
But if you apply this same philosophy to the rest of life, well it seems sad that you would have to refuse to participate in life, as life is full situations that exacerbate our own faults.
This is a good example (sorry, Simplify, to use yours. It was just succinct and easily quotable...) of what Lyssa was saying about exaggerating her position a bit too much. She was only talking about opting out of Christmas, not opting out of life, for goodness sake.
I think Lyssa described her reasoning in a clear, sensible, rational manner and I read nothing in her posts that would suggest great anger or suffering. I find it presumptuous to assign these states to her and I'm somewhat puzzled by the fact that so many people responded to Lyssa 'anger' and yet had nothing to say to the poster who actually did show anger; TheFound.
I celebrate Christmas with a great fervor (but not with material things like gifts) and it brings out the best in me. We feast as much as our limited income will allow and we're grateful for it.
I do, however, see it having the same attributes that Lyssa listed and I can understand her point of view very well. My approach may be different but I have to agree with her and I will keep the points she brought up in my mind as well and I act on them whenever appropriate.
It's hard for me to see how you could or should compartmentalize your life like that. It seems to me very strange to be able or want to say something like, "When things are difficult, troublesome, full of conflict, make me upset, angry, fearful, sad and I associate them with christmas I will ignore them. When things have these same qualities but I don't associate them with christmas, I will work with them."
For example if seeing people buy and give expensive things during christmas makes you feel bad about inequality, what about when seeing a big expensive house makes you feel bad about inequality? Should I only drive down roads that have houses of the same socioeconomic class as mine, so that I don't feel ashamed about my inequality?
That may sound like an absurd example, but I don't't understand how you can create this division where some reminders of inequality (or anything 'bad') are acceptable and some are not.
I'm glad TheFound clarified his original post. I've always had a hard time balancing the Christmas celebrations of my family and friends with the Buddhist beliefs I've been practicing, and I've trying to figure this out for over 20 years. I think the bottom line is that all the anger and frustration with Christianity is just another form of attachment to a line of thought, a negative perception of others and their views. I find nothing to relate to in dogmatic Christianity, but I love and adore the people I know and they happen to consider themselves Christian. We can gather and be with one another on the holidays without singing hymns and praying to Jesus or the altar of commercialism. I think the hardest thing for any of us to admit is that we're attached to an idea that winds up having negative effects - like making the ones who love us feel like we're distancing ourselves from them because of beliefs they hold dear. However it's taught, the essence of Christianity is still love. Our path may lead through a different forest, but the destination we seek is the same. No gods need apply, just be good to one another.
See, if Lyssa and theFound had just posted that first picture from the start, there would be no argument, because it's now clear that Christmas IS suffering.
On the other hand, if those kids can sit there without crying, then perhaps it isn't, and the issue IS personal and internal. (those kids have some big balls)
I'm glad TheFound clarified his original post. I've always had a hard time balancing the Christmas celebrations of my family and friends with the Buddhist beliefs I've been practicing, and I've trying to figure this out for over 20 years. I think the bottom line is that all the anger and frustration with Christianity is just another form of attachment to a line of thought, a negative perception of others and their views. I find nothing to relate to in dogmatic Christianity, but I love and adore the people I know and they happen to consider themselves Christian. We can gather and be with one another on the holidays without singing hymns and praying to Jesus or the altar of commercialism. I think the hardest thing for any of us to admit is that we're attached to an idea that winds up having negative effects - like making the ones who love us feel like we're distancing ourselves from them because of beliefs they hold dear. However it's taught, the essence of Christianity is still love. Our path may lead through a different forest, but the destination we seek is the same. No gods need apply, just be good to one another.
Christmas increases people's motivation for giving and kindness which in my opinion makes up for the bad stuff like losing money as I think Lyssa said.
Christmas is BOGUS you guys,
maybe you guys don't see it, because you are taking the xmas drug ..along with the majority of people who think Christmas is for the win..you are HIGH on Christmas ADMIT IT! you mofo's, you've been force fed this drugs since childhood until you like it..
IT's for the lose! can't we just admit when we have a bogus holiday/season, when there could be a million worth while legitimate holidays/seasons?
how about barrack obama day? or Kubo Tite day? hmmm?
what about STEVEN SEAGAL WEEK? or Bruce LEE season?! hmmm ?!:D
TheFound, we're not talking about celebrating Christmas, we're talking about celebrating the people in our lives. And, I know I'm new to this forum, but if you're idea of Buddhist dialogue usually consists of the kind of insults laced in your posts, I think you may have more issues to deal with than the holiday of someone else's belief.
Christmas is BOGUS you guys,
maybe you guys don't see it, because you are taking the xmas drug ..along with the majority of people who think Christmas is for the win..you are HIGH on Christmas ADMIT IT! you mofo's, you've been force fed this drugs since childhood until you like it..
Quite honestly I think some other mofo on this forum's been smokin' a lil somethin' else and needs to go air out.
Yeah, Christmas has been commercialized and corrupted. Some people still see it the way it was meant to be and don't get caught up in that aspect of it.
TheFound, we're not talking about celebrating Christmas, we're talking about celebrating the people in our lives. And, I know I'm new to this forum, but if you're idea of Buddhist dialogue usually consists of the kind of insults laced in your posts, I think you may have more issues to deal with than the holiday of someone else's belief.
I don't think The Found has read my massive posts which explain what I mean.
Why are you insulting those who celebrate Christmas? That is not Buddhist, but there isn't any point in typing this because The Found is going to ignore it anyway.
My points are all in my past posts especially the really, really long one on the first page.
Christmas is BOGUS you guys,
maybe you guys don't see it, because you are taking the xmas drug ..along with the majority of people who think Christmas is for the win..you are HIGH on Christmas ADMIT IT! you mofo's, you've been force fed this drugs since childhood until you like it..
IT's for the lose! can't we just admit when we have a bogus holiday/season, when there could be a million worth while legitimate holidays/seasons?
how about barrack obama day? or Kubo Tite day? hmmm?
what about STEVEN SEAGAL WEEK? or Bruce LEE season?! hmmm ?!:D
I'm just curious, what are your thoughts on Valentine's Day?
I still think Christmas is harmless. My reasons condensed...
-seeing family
-good food
-cool decorations
-excuse to give girls presents
If Steven Seagal Week offered those perks, I'd happily celebrate it and encourage others to do so. But Seagal movies don't bring my distant relatives together. So if Christmas is a drug, I'm going to keep filling my prescription.
I discuss religion with Roman Catholics, Muslims, Jews and Rastafarians.
I also discuss politics with Marxists, Conservatives, Liberals and members of the Labour party.
I have friends who are meat eaters, Vegetarian and Vegan and have discussion with them also.
We are different in all these ways but in other ways we are all exactly the same.. we all like to discuss our views openly and freely without censor. We all listen to the views of others and compare different viewpoints breaking them down to see if there is any common ground . We all enjoy the exchange because it allows us to compound and consolidate our belief that we are following the right path. Or conversely it allows us to see if a different path may be the one we are looking for.
And most importantly we share the common view that discussion should be conducted in a non-judgemental, polite and non aggressive way . And that underpinning our discussion should be a basic respect of the views of others.
Comments
Maybe, but you understand that christmas is largely harmless to most people right?
Oh but it is you heathen!
Oh of course it is. And you should have a good time at xmas just like people who celebrate it. And sure there are bad sides, but keep in mind that there are good sides. If I'm honest you came across very black and white about Christmas. I think what hit me the most was when you said you didnt like it when people got you xmas presents. The only reason you don't like that is because of you. If it was any other time you would be fine, right? So just because it was for christmas you didnt like it? Do you not see that issue lies with you and you alone?
Listen Lyssa, any offence I caused was unintentional. I hope you have a very happy non-xmas.
I don't like it when I am given a Christmas gift because it makes me feel bad for several reasons:
1) I think the person purchased it for me out of obligation,
2) I don't have a reciprocal gift to give him or her and
3) it's rarely something that I will use or enjoy.
I've had someone who gave me a gift actually look hurt and surprised that I didn't have one for him. Some people just can't believe that anyone would opt out. However, I've had lots of people confide in me that they would love to be able to do so but feel unable to for some reason.
Same to you.
How do you know that in every case? maybe they gave it to you to make you happy, give you pleasure, and because they like you.
That's actually why I give people presents....
That's your guilty problem, it has nothing to do with Christmas. it has everything to do with the fact that you have chosen to opt out - but others haven't.
Then thank them graciously, tell them it's very kind of them, and put it in a cupboard for three months, then get a friend to accidentally drop it.
or give it to Charity.
or give it on to someone else.
Or swap it with someone who sees it and loves it.
Or just give it away....
Presumably when it is something you will use and enjoy, you'll keep it, use it and enjoy it?
or would that be hypocrisy?
maybe you should send out an e-mail - now - saying something to the effect:
"Well folks, it's that time of year again! Christmas approaches, and as many of you know, being Buddhist, it's not a festival I wish to celebrate.
So I'm asking you all now - please, please do not Buy me anything!
I won't be purchasing gifts for anyone, and I won't be joining in any of the celebrations. not even a card.
So here's to hoping you all have a good time, in your own way, and rest assured I shall be having a good time in mine.
Please therefore, again - no gifts, no cards, nothing.
Refusal offends, and I'd hate to refuse your kindness. But you have been warned! Include me at your peril!
Thanks!!"
So have I.
But that's their problem.
Just as this one's yours.
I'm arguing that good and bad things are done in the names of all religions, and it's unfair to mark Christianity (and by extension, Christmas) as "inherently ebil" or something unless you're willing to do the same to your own.
Come on, Lyssa; you disagreed that there could be anything to like about Christmas, suggested we should try to eradicate Christmas entirely, and basically called yourself a "victim," comparing Christmas (and Christianity) with rape and torture:
:eek2:
True, but that's not a very compassionate reaction. I feel sorry for all these people who are participating out of a sense of guilt or obligation, and they make up a significant part of the Christmas-celebrating population. Many don't even realize that opting out is an option.
I'm perfectly willing to do the same to my own: I don't even call myself a Buddhist, just a practitioner. However, Buddhism does not have as a central tenet the concept of vicarious salvation, which is what I find distasteful about Christianity (and by extension, Christmas).
The quote was taken completely out of context. I was refuting (with an extreme example) the argument that we should not attempt to change outer circumstances. And I don't recall referring to myself as a victim.
What actually takes place in the mind when one suffers, using Christmas as the example? Is anyone here even aware, deeply truly aware through direct observation of the process of suffering?
Without that observation, it seems to me we are just chasing our tails, taking turns being the teeth and the tail.
It is surely the case that, elsewhere on these boards, attention has been brought to a celebration which includes ritual slaughter of animals. Members have seen fit to criticise, wiiyhout sanction. Thus do we demonstrate our underlying attitude. What name do we give it? Concern? humanitarianism? or is it subtle racism, discrimination, hypocrisy even?
So, we cannot reject Lyssa's comments because they lack respect: we have done so ourselves.
Additionally, she speaks for the many for whom Christianity is abhorrent. Are we trying to deny there are such? or that they are somehow 'bad people' and have no right to express their anger at churches which have, self-evidently, let them down?
We listen with empathetic pain and sympathy-filled words to those who have been let down and abused by parents, siblings or partners. We must, surely extend the same compassion to those let down and abused by "Mother Church"
For myself, who dare to call myself Christian among other things, this is when I am most aware of those who have been hurt by the very organisations which claim to have care of them. That, for me, is an integral part of the story of a baby bastard born in a back-street.
Yeah it does, it is a valid experience.
That's not all Christmas is though.
I call it crazy if you don't see the positive with the negative. And thus the balance of things. I've been there and done that and yes I was wrong.
My comments and I'm sure others have come from an insight that Lyssa's comments come from suffering rather than peace. If I didn't respect them I would have told the troll to go away.
Am I a bad person for pointing this out as being not beneficial to anybody to loath anything?
and stirring up the economy especially during recession is not a bad thing either!!
What I hate is the increase in activities in the slaughter houses and in beer companies.
"It is possible to have a very full and meaningful existence without having to celebrate Christmas. "
I agree completely.
But unfortunately you do show anger to Christmas. And I have a quote to back it up.
Quote:
"Cool, my point was that it might be worth you working with your loathing of christmas too. "
This says to me that you're encouraging someone to increase their hatred (therefore making them suffer more).
I understand that some people like you do not like Christmas. Remember, I agree with some of your points but you should not encourage loathing of a religious tradition, from what Buddhism I have studied, this is not the Buddhist way.
I think we should all take a deep,deep breath, relax and think about how we should act. This is a Buddhist forum so we should post according to the Buddha's teachings as well, I mean that we should not type in an angry way, that still brings suffering. We should type and post according to the Buddha's teachings.
"I would argue that people of extremely low financial standing probably don't have the capacity to appreciate conspicuous consumption that you assign to them. Christmas puts a magnifying glass on inequality, making it one of the biggest (if not the biggest) causes of debt"
I agree. although I do not think it is that extreme, but I do agree with you.
It doesn't look like you have a grudge against Christianity, only Christmas. But The Found looks like he does.
Here are some of The Found's words.
"You don't have to play these games with 'me'.
You can be HONEST..you think I am wrong."
What games?
"I don't care even a bit... about your inter-cultural tenderness.
I think YOU are wrong. "
This is very sad.
"Why do you still even consider Christianity?!"
Because I believe in true love and compassion and self sacrifice for the benefit of all sentient beings. I also believe in the goodness of humanity. That is where God is. And I also believe in the 'oneness' of all religions. I mean that all religions should be close and not focus on their differences. All these religions can help eachother.
"IF he (jesus) wasn't just a close minded capitalist"
A. Wasn't Jesus poor? He didn't believe in lots of money, I am sure of that.
You posted in another thread which had a story of this homeless guy following you. You said in that thread you were an advanced Buddhist.
"Christianity is wrong bro,"
"Why do you still even consider Christianity?!"
"I don't care even a bit... about your inter-cultural tenderness."
If you are an advanced Buddhist then I must have the wrong understanding of Buddhism.
"God is a lie that doesn't make sense like SANTA."
Then I wish you to experience true love , then it will make sense what God is and represents. You don't have to accept him, I'm just saying that it'll make sense what he represents.
I am very sorry about that, but I had to get that off my chest. I don't think that I was following Dharma typing the replies to The Found's quotes. I am sorry.
You're actually quoting Kikujiro, and I think you misconstrued his meaning. By "work on" he meant that I should try to diminish the Christmas loathing, not increase it. Please re-read the exchange.
I think you're attributing that quote to Lyssa but it was Kikujiro who said it, which might make you look at that quote in a different light.
Hey, Lyssa do you feel good when someone says 'Merry Christmas' to you? Or 'God Bless you!'
They're blessings. Are you okay with them? Just wondering.
I feel no guilt or shame in giving gifts and getting gifts in return. Seems like a reasonable business transaction to me. But with a lot more pizazz. :cool:
And in response to the charge that Christmas makes people loses money? One word: budget. Everyone should have one.
I was transported. This rings so true. Thanks so much, AriettaDolente!
Lovely.
_________________
But really, what does this have to do with Christmas?
—KOB
I feel kind of bad now, about what I said...I was drinking a bit that night..:p
Never comes out 100% skillfully after 5-6 Canadian beers..
let me clarify a few things, I don't like Christianity the religion..or Christmas.
I like Christians though.. most if not all of my family is/are passive/non-practicing Christians, and they have done a whole world of good to me.
I don't however like at all those psycho Christians who go overboard..condemn little kids to hell, hate black people, view women as servants of man...follow the bible to the letter...faith healers...etc..etc..
I don't believe much in Jesus as an actual person, check out Zeitgeist the movie and it's sequel
But...Someone.. maybe the Buddha or Dalai Lama said something like , "to each his own "CURE" for our disease of Samsara...you know if it's going to help the human condition , take it. "
I just think Buddhism is a much better..well thought..detailed cure. More realistic....
I guess in conclusion my anger was misdirected; you guys ever see those hologram pictures where you have to stare at them for a while to see what the picture is?
you know what...lets just go with:
the
FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!!!
wouldn't you be pissed if people took that seriously?
RAMEN!!
So you should be!
Merry Xmas you dirty heathen!
It depends on the spirit in which they are intended. As I mentioned earlier, US Evangelicals have essentially turned "Merry Christmas" into hate speech. I found the "We say Merry Christmas" bumper sticker to be extremely offensive, but a sincere niceties are pleasant, even if some of them (e.g. "Jesus loves you!") communicate a lack of sensitivity or even a bit of arrogant ignorance. I know (most) people mean well.
It's absolutely a cultural thing.
If you have to reject Christmas, don't you have to reject all of humanity? It seems to me there is nothing in humanity that is not born from and gives birth to conflict. (except Buddhism of course, [cough cough])
Lyssa, please allow me to respond to this. I address a matter that your statement implies you are not informed about. This is kinda an FYI post, so please don't think I'm trying to do anything here but explain. I have underlined above what I believe conveys misunderstanding on your part. Some others, I believe, have taken some objection to this, also. Christmas does not have the "meaning" you ascribe to it. It's about the celebration of the birth of the child. Where would we be if that stopped happening?
Christmas is really about "The Incarnation," Emmanuel, "God Himself Being With Us." Christmas is the main Christian Feast that just focusses on the vulnerable, beautiful humanity of Christ. Children are so beautiful because in them we see almost pure potentiality. Therefore, the birth of the Christ Child is a very auspicious and exalted occasion.
As the quintessential feast of an Incarnational religion, Christmas has nothing at all to do with vicarious salvation or death by torture. It's about celebrating a new life and a new beginning. It's really largely rooted in pagan custom and comes at a time when a little extra cheer might very well come in handy to help people through a long winter.
Moreover, it is just simply not true that Christianity is a religion purely about vicarious salvation. In the Catholic and (especially) the Eastern Orthodox trunks of the Church, there is theology about the deification of the human person, who by grace and compassionate resolve becomes more like unto God. Jesus said [Matt 5], "Be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect." That is, through Christ's example of self-sacrificing love the human being is lifted out of self into a greater and greater communion with eternal truth (oneness, love...)
The incarnation at Christmas is the birth of the Christian's big brother (St. Paul calls him "the Firstfruits" of them that slept.) An innocent lamb born into the world to turn the hearts of the fathers towards their children.
I maintain that it is the high theology of the church and not the kerygma of the first and second centuries that steers the soul of the Christian. The kerygma is just the mechanism to build up the body of the Church, but is not its summation.
________
(1st Sunday after Christmas Day)
Almighty God, who hast poured upon us the new light of thine incarnate Word; Grant that the same light, enkindled in our hearts, may shine forth in our lives; through the same Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever. Amen.
Christ is referred to as a lamb because he was ostensibly born to be a sacrifice. The theology you refer to is Gnosticism, not Christianity.
The definitive scholarship on the subject of Christian mysticism, as far as I know, is R.A. Knox's Enthusiasm (1950).
Mysticism is found in all the World's religions and is the great unifier of the soul with higher reality. In Islam, there are Sufis, In Judaism there are the Hasidic Jews, and the list goes on and on. Are you saying that somehow Christians are exempt from this faculty or phenomenon, and that if they differ from the model you have of them they're mere Gnostics?
I know plenty of Christians whose religion I'd describe as Theosis. They are working out their own salvation in the world. They are Roman Catholic, Russian Orthodox, Episcopalians, and non-denominational, the ones I know.
Just look up Theosis in Wikipedia. From the beginning the Christian Church has been full of people not seeing the At-One-Ment as something already won for them, but as something to be strived for in their own lives. Proof can be found in the words and records that they left behind. From the beginning...
Girl, love is a wonderful motivator.
I'll pass on the assignments. I was raised by devout Christians and I am surrounded by them daily; none of them are mystics and all of them are bigots. There's simply no way to dress up that pig, so to speak, in a way that will make it appealing to me. Different strokes.
It's got nothing to do with compassion!
It is what it is!
YOU have a problem with Christmas - and that IS your problem!
Your feelings of sorrow for other people are both inappropriate (Why 'feel sorry' for them?) and unnecessary (Do you think they want you to feel sorry for them? Why feel sorry for them when they're obviously enjoying most of it?) Feel sorry for yourself because you either can't or won't let yourself freedom to enjoy parts of it!
Opting out isn't all black and white....if you're going to opt out, do it with a glad heart and a merry soul, not a 'baah, humbug! this is bloody awful!" attitude....!
Well there's your answer. it's not what's happening, it's the people it's happening with. Christian bigots.
If you shared your home with Christians who rejoiced at your decision for you, and respected your ideas, but left the door open for a joint melding of loving compassion, you'd probably see things differently.
You have a further choice then.
Go on Buddhist retreat and separate yourself from them entirely.
And send that letter.
You didn't comment on that, but it's a valid and extremely functional option.
Be well.:)
Again, I think that the suffering I'm causing myself regarding Christmas has been greatly exaggerated. I find it obnoxious, that's all. I do believe it causes a lot of suffering for a lot of people and I have compassion for them, but I hardly think this is inappropriate. I don't find the more benign parts of the holiday appealing enough to try to stomach the rest of it. Why is that such a huge deal to everyone?
Thank you for the advice, but, again, you're making the problem sound more dramatic than it is. Really, avoidance of Christmas - even loathing of Christmas - is just not the serious issue that you guys seem to think it is. Like I mentioned, I've had lots of people who are still participating in it tell me that they secretly hate it. It's probably a lot more common than people realize. Hopefully, as a result of this thread, awareness has been raised. Thank you, TheFound!
For example, when someone feels bad because they don't have as much money as others, is it Christmas that does this, or their own desire for a self image that includes status, and upon comparing themself in the starkness of Christmas they can no longer hold onto the self image?
Is it even possible to make such generalizations about Christmas? You could give a child a thousand gifts and teach them that happiness is a material thing, but you could also teach that same child how to give of themselves, and if there was someone who could accept that gift, and genuinely appreciate what the child gave (time, energy, thought, allowance money, etc), couldn't the child learn the goodness of giving?
My own drunk, angry, fearful and violent family holidays hurt me as a child, and I wish I had not had to experience that. But now, as an adult I can go back to that same drunk, angry, fearful and violent family and not be drawn into the bullshit. In fact, by being there and listening to them, by being calm in the face of everything, by showing that I genuinely care, I support them psychologically. I know this because to my utter amazement after the holidays and throughout the year they have started opening up to me, and being honest about themselves to me.
So the reason I have a reaction to your statements Lyssa is that it seems you deny any possibility of not being drawn into the bullshit. Where you say you are offended by the rampant materialism, I would say that it is up to you whether you are offended. Not being offended by materialism does not mean you have to accept it. Could you not on the one hand work to educate people about materialism and the suffering it causes them, and on the other be completely free from any reaction you have to materialistic people?
Could you receive a gift, fully knowing that it is bullshit, yet not be bothered by it? Is this possible?
Christmas, whilst not Ultimately to blame (because we are each responsible for our own reactions, etc., etc.), exacerbates many of our worst qualities, so I choose not to participate. My refusal to participate, as I mentioned, seems to be a bigger problem for other people than it is for me. This "situation" doesn't keep me up at night, and I frankly can believe that it is such an issue for Buddhists.
But if you apply this same philosophy to the rest of life, well it seems sad that you would have to refuse to participate in life, as life is full situations that exacerbate our own faults.
I think Lyssa described her reasoning in a clear, sensible, rational manner and I read nothing in her posts that would suggest great anger or suffering. I find it presumptuous to assign these states to her and I'm somewhat puzzled by the fact that so many people responded to Lyssa 'anger' and yet had nothing to say to the poster who actually did show anger; TheFound.
I celebrate Christmas with a great fervor (but not with material things like gifts) and it brings out the best in me. We feast as much as our limited income will allow and we're grateful for it.
I do, however, see it having the same attributes that Lyssa listed and I can understand her point of view very well. My approach may be different but I have to agree with her and I will keep the points she brought up in my mind as well and I act on them whenever appropriate.
For example if seeing people buy and give expensive things during christmas makes you feel bad about inequality, what about when seeing a big expensive house makes you feel bad about inequality? Should I only drive down roads that have houses of the same socioeconomic class as mine, so that I don't feel ashamed about my inequality?
That may sound like an absurd example, but I don't't understand how you can create this division where some reminders of inequality (or anything 'bad') are acceptable and some are not.
On the other hand, if those kids can sit there without crying, then perhaps it isn't, and the issue IS personal and internal.
Welcome to the site.
maybe you guys don't see it, because you are taking the xmas drug ..along with the majority of people who think Christmas is for the win..you are HIGH on Christmas ADMIT IT! you mofo's, you've been force fed this drugs since childhood until you like it..
IT's for the lose! can't we just admit when we have a bogus holiday/season, when there could be a million worth while legitimate holidays/seasons?
how about barrack obama day? or Kubo Tite day? hmmm?
what about STEVEN SEAGAL WEEK? or Bruce LEE season?! hmmm ?!:D
Quite honestly I think some other mofo on this forum's been smokin' a lil somethin' else and needs to go air out.
Yeah, Christmas has been commercialized and corrupted. Some people still see it the way it was meant to be and don't get caught up in that aspect of it.
I think The Found is a bit of an iconoclast.
The problem with a drawn out argument is that we take it to too personally. Take this medium as a level playing field, ok.
Why are you insulting those who celebrate Christmas? That is not Buddhist, but there isn't any point in typing this because The Found is going to ignore it anyway.
My points are all in my past posts especially the really, really long one on the first page.
I'm just curious, what are your thoughts on Valentine's Day?
I still think Christmas is harmless. My reasons condensed...
-seeing family
-good food
-cool decorations
-excuse to give girls presents
If Steven Seagal Week offered those perks, I'd happily celebrate it and encourage others to do so. But Seagal movies don't bring my distant relatives together. So if Christmas is a drug, I'm going to keep filling my prescription.
I also discuss politics with Marxists, Conservatives, Liberals and members of the Labour party.
I have friends who are meat eaters, Vegetarian and Vegan and have discussion with them also.
We are different in all these ways but in other ways we are all exactly the same.. we all like to discuss our views openly and freely without censor. We all listen to the views of others and compare different viewpoints breaking them down to see if there is any common ground . We all enjoy the exchange because it allows us to compound and consolidate our belief that we are following the right path. Or conversely it allows us to see if a different path may be the one we are looking for.
And most importantly we share the common view that discussion should be conducted in a non-judgemental, polite and non aggressive way . And that underpinning our discussion should be a basic respect of the views of others.