Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
My only meditation centre is NKT
Hi everyone,
I am fairly new to this so please bear with me.
I have being searching for a place to meditate localy as I find monastic style group meditation, usually guided, much more beneficial.
But the only center near to me is a NKT one. I went once and didn't think it was too bad, but have heard alot of negative cult rumors and such and am wondering if its such a good idea. I'm more into Theravadan Buddhism you see but the nearest place to me is in the middle of a forest well away from me.
Any advice?
Thanks
Stream
I am fairly new to this so please bear with me.
I have being searching for a place to meditate localy as I find monastic style group meditation, usually guided, much more beneficial.
But the only center near to me is a NKT one. I went once and didn't think it was too bad, but have heard alot of negative cult rumors and such and am wondering if its such a good idea. I'm more into Theravadan Buddhism you see but the nearest place to me is in the middle of a forest well away from me.
Any advice?
Thanks
Stream
0
Comments
You will be much better off in the long run and avoiding a cult will be well worth the drive to the forest.
Hi!
Yeah, the problem with that is I don't drive and its so far its impossible me to get to with the amount of cash I get coming in. Is it better to go to nothing at all than to go to the NKT meditation center?
even if you dont get to sit with a sangha as often as you would like, avoiding controversy and questionable groups will pay off down the road.
good luck
Stream, there is another Thread on this actually that might help you see both sides of the issue and decide what's best for you: http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3934
I'm afraid I have to reluctantly agree.
Portsmouth Chan Group
Contact George Marsh at: [URL="javascript:linkTo_UnCryptMailto('qempxs.kisvkiqevwlDrxpasvph2gsq');"]georgemarsh(at)ntlworld.com[/URL]
Telephone George Marsh at: 023 9235 7783.
View meeting details: groups.yahoo.com/group/Pompeychan
http://www.westernchanfellowship.org/other-groups.html
Thank you Nios,
I have allready sent them an email, asking if I can come along. I don't have much experience in Chan. I hope he responds because I would like somewhere to go to meditate.
They are centers run by the New Kadampa Tradition that are set up all over the country.
The Dalai Lama said that if you want to be one of his students and be under his protection don't take the shugden empowerment. That's all. Study the authentic material at the NKT center but don't take that particular empowerment.
I don't get it
No problem. I enjoy chan buddhism.
Once you get on the local buddhist "circuit" so to speak, you'll find many other local groups which are not on the internet. You might also find that some of the members of the chan group might take monthly trips to Chithurst. Many people do and they might give you a lift aswell.
If I was to steer from everything in life because of its 'controversy' I would probably become an agoraphobic. Reputable science is telling us daily that everything is killing us.
Like with all other things in life, go along and see what your own experience of it is, only then judge whether it is right or wrong for you.
i disagree.
actually i think the discussion of the NKT and the practice they do should be prohibited on any forum that is trying to promote authentic Buddhist discussion.
i find it disturbing that this is not the case here.
Any NKT person has, through their access to the the dharma presented in their center and in general (ie. other books etc by other Gelugs), the necessary information to see emptiness directly if they work hard at it.
The whole NKT thing. Never heard in my country. I'm too lazy to look up the web but if it is something which promotes a different practice in the name of Buddhism then I guess we should think twice before attending it.
I think you should research the issue yourself and not take statements like that at face value. The issue definitely isn't as simple as that.
I agree entirely with Aaki's comment:
What's most important is you have a group of like-minded people who are interested in and enthusiastic about studying the Dhamma and practicing it. If you like the centre and are only concerned over gossip and bad-mouthing you heard online (which happens on both ends, by the way), then you might be cutting yourself off from a good resource. Just educate yourself on the issue from both sides and be careful, as you should no matter what centre you're looking into.
if you take refuge in a samsaric spirit you break your vows, plain and simple. the gyalpo they take refuge in is a samsaric entity, therefore every time one takes refuge in it they break their vows.
Pabhonkha was jailed for trying to alter the kangyur in order to preserve ones vows if they take refuge in gyalpo's.
you are only making yourself look ill informed.
Yeah I didn't make a judgment as I don't know a thing about this issue.
GKG both understands shugden to be a buddha and takes refuge in Buddha Shakyamuni (etc). I have to conclude that your argument is completely without merit, I don't have a choice. The other idiotic point which is that GKG has broken his vows because he is going against His Holiness is similar.
Tsongkhapa, Sakya Pandita, Guru Rinpoche and Atisa all disagree with you. But dont take my word for it. Read their works for yourself, primarily Sakya Panditas Clear Differentiation of the Three Vows and Tsongkhapa's actual writings rather than later commentaries on them.
Also, it doesnt matter how he understands the gyalpo. The supporters of the gyalpo started saying he was a Buddha in order to get around the issue of breached refuge vows. Just because you call something a buddha doesnt mean it is.
Again, you have made it abundantly clear that you dont know what the vows are or what they mean.
On the point of ultimate refuge, that does not apply to gyalpos or other classes of spirits or gods. This applies to yidams etc. not mundane protectors.
The point of the refuge vows is to not deny refuge in the buddha. Even if GKG and everyone like him are wrong about shugden they still take refuge in the buddha and other tantric deities.
Which part of this is wrong?
The refuge vows may be repaired by retaking refuge but its not a great idea to be constantly be breaking and repairing our vows in this manner.
In the Berzin article he is referring to Yidams and authentic dharmapalas such as Mahakala who is a manifestation of Avalokiteshvara as refuges of which the gyalpo in question is not and has never been interpreted as until recently and only in fringe groups. In the past when gyalpo's were propitiated one would NOT take refuge in them for this very reason. They were given offerings and bound to protect the person performing the rite. The relationship is tenuous and dangerous since the gyalpo's are often violent etc.
"This commitment means not taking ultimate refuge in gods or spirits." (Berzin). This is exactly the commitment that is broken, by taking refuge in the gyalpo one breaches the refuge vows and places themselves in a dangerous relationship with an class of spirit that is known for violence, causing mental illness and plagues upon crops and livestock.
As mentioned before Sakya Pandita's writings on the 3 sets of vows is exceptional and should be read by all who want to practice within the Vajrayana.
Furthermore when you take refuge you don't take refuge in something else you take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. Basic refuge is sutra not tantra. It is not the case that a later tantric initiation automatically breaks their sutra vows, because the sutra vows are still in effect, because they still take refuge in the Buddha Jewel.
Sutra or Tantra, taking refuge in a gyalpo as a source of deliverance from samsara breaches the vows.
Hate to keep pounding this but Sakya Pandita is a much better source than Berzin (nothing against Berzin of course).
What, so no freedom of speech? That seems harsh, especially in any democratic country.
its about ensuring that the forum is a safe environment for those who wish to pursue the Buddhadharma. A part of maintaining that safe environment is making sure that the people who come here for information and discussion are protected from dangerous organizations and "teachers".
The purpose of the vow is to not deny the Buddha Jewel and take up something worldly in its place, as I said. This has not taken place. They don't regard the object in question as worldly, nor is it involved in the basic refuge ceremony, nor is the Buddha Jewel denied.
Simply adding something you think is a buddha to your taking refuge in Buddha Shakyamuni literally doesn't harm the vow. You literally haven't dropped the vow. There's nothing in the person's mind that makes it such that the vow is dropped (ie. the only thing that does this is thinking that it is useless to take refuge in the buddha).
Berzin in the article later on goes on to say that you don't even have to be specifically buddhist to get the vow. You can be part of another religion and yet have an understanding of/faith in refuge in the buddha.
Does Sakya Pandita or someone like that comment further on this?
I'm sorry. To me this all sounds like a discussion of the proper color of unicorns.
I've heard about the NKT controversy since I first encountered them. I'd say about 80% of what they teach is just ordinary straight down the road Buddhadharma. That's why when they send a speaker to town, I attend. However, there's that 20% that niggles at me.
1. guided meditations. Sorry, I HATE guided meditations. It is my not-so-humble opinion that meditation does not need to be, nor should it ever be "guided." Meditation isn't an "experience." It's mind training. I've been to a dozen NKT talks and not once has this simple fact been noted nor was there actual instruction on how to meditate.
2. The cost. They don't ask for donations like every other religious organization in the entire freekin' world. They charge admission like new age hucksters.
3. The concept of "self cherishing." They are against it. The most charitable definition of self cherishing I can find is the idea of always struggling to make yourself psychologically or physically comfortable. It's covering the world with leather instead of just wearing shoes. But that's me being charitable. The way the expression is most often used it seems to mean any kindness toward yourself. Everything you do is supposed to be for the sake of others. I don't like that. I think you should not distinguish between yourself and others and be kind to all.
4. The intense focus on Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I understand he's the founder of the sect and I understand why he's important. At the most recent NKT talk the speaker announced proudly that she never reads anybody else's books. What?!?! I read everybody! I've struggled to read one of GKG's books and it was boring and unfocused. I'd much rather read other authors who are more gifted at getting the ideas across. It's all dharma, right? right?
5. Praying to the Buddha as if he we still alive and listening. I've never been asked to do it, but the NKT person does. The Buddha isn't Jesus. He said over and over that our brains were no different from his and he didn't have some special magic that the rest of us mortals can't partake in. Also the Buddha died almost 3000 years ago. He's toast. Shuffled off this mortal coil. Pushing up daisies. He's an ex-Buddha, etc. He left behind a vast array of teachings and other than that you're on your own. The dharma is sacred. The Buddha is not.
As with anything, pay your money and take your choice. A different NKT teacher might be better read and better at getting the ideas across than the current (extremely nice) lady they have here as their local representative. It's always best to exprience the widest range of teachers and ways of coming at the dharma. The Buddha was a smart guy and understood this. He taught a lot of cultures over many decades and came at the same material from a lot of different angles. Some of those angles will resonate with you more than others.
Good luck!
and you dont have anything to be sorry for. whether or not people agree on the nature of the NKT is irrelevant really. They are a known cult, people on this forum can continue to defend them if they want but what they are wont be changing any time soon. I wish you the best and I wont be speaking on the matter any longer.
Better to have the worms out in the light. Don't worry about it.
Thanks for all your interest and advice I really do appreciate it.
As to this issue, it is a very longstanding emotional one as I understand it. It has nothing to do with you.
Best wishes in your practice. The practice is true, but it does take some practice.
Metta.
When was Buddhism ever about disharmony and divisive speech?
I bet he/she never has set foot inside an NKT center but simply the negative propaganda they have read and been told. There is nothing wrong with the NKT, the teachings are modern and relevant whilst at the same time transmitting the essence of the ancient Kadampa teachings of Atisha and his followers. If you doubt this, read one of Geshe Kelsang's books or look at the Kadampa website and say how it differs.
Just like the Dalai Lama, you'd be very happy to cut off free speech for political purposes, Shenpen. You see what happened to E-Sangha when they tried to control what people discussed on Buddhist forums- their negative karma ripened in the destruction of their site. It is not good to spread such negativity. There is no place for such sectarianism in Buddhist communities.
The issue of Dorje Shugden is a purely political one, sadly. Dorje Shugden is being used by the Dalai Lama to advance a political agenda, distracting people from his failure to obtain anything good for the Tibetan people and also to unite all the schools of Tibetan Buddhism together so that he can control them. To do this he had to weaken the Gelugpas, which he did through banning Dorje Shugden practice. He also weakened the Kagyu school by splitting them over the issues of the 17th Karmapa. The 16th Karmapa had been a rallying point for the other schools to oppose his previous attempt to unite the schools and, because of the Karmapa, his plan failed. He made such the Karmapa wasn't an obstacle this time round by splitting the Kagyus. How shameful!
There is a lot of mixing of politics and religion by the Dalai Lama and this political pollution is destroying Tibetan Buddhism. Let's pray for such interference to cease.
Hi,
No please don't misunderstand me. I don't know nearly enough about the NKT to make any kind of judgement. I'm just sorry theres all this going on I just wish everyone could get along.
Firstly, I don't think you will have upset anyone, which is to say, if anyone's upset he did it to himself.
Secondly, because I am a fairly new Buddhist I decided to research the hell out of teh intarnets on both sides of the NKT controversy, and have come to my own conclusions. Has each naysayer conducted due research too, before forming his? If so, wonderful, regardless of whether his view differs from mine.
I do think it's irresponsible for some people to strongly warn newcomers away from a particular branch or group based on a feeling in their water or rumour or hearsay.
Why not? Clearly plenty of people have done just that, and also plenty of people have made allegations about GKG. Are you dismissing all the allegations on the grounds that the people who made them are simply not "reasonable"? Or only those allegations directed at DL?
Aside from that, why NOT make allegations about the Dalai Lama, the Queen of England, the Pope... surely nobody is beyond criticism, at least within a democracy? If a leader is not accountable due to being deemed too holy for the rules to apply to them, sometimes it leads to another Waco, another Aum Shinrikyo.
In mahayana buddhism emptiness is the only realistic understanding of the world. Anyone who fully realizes it acts realistically, whereas everyone who has not is totally irrational.
I sincerely appreciate your neutrality and I'm sorry if those who view the Dalai Lama as their Teacher are hurt by my words, but this is my understanding and there is plenty of documentary evidence to support it which will be given in the new Western Shugden Society book, 'A Great Deception'.
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/en/agd
The Dalai Lama is trying to put Shugden practitioners outside Buddhism by claiming that Shugden is a spirit and those who rely on him are breaking their refuge commitment. We can see such arguments that have been made here by Shenpen. If this were the case, then great Teachers such as Trijang Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche and Je Pabongkapa would not have been Buddhist, along with the great majority of Gelugpas. Where, then, would that leave the Gelugpa tradition and the Dalai Lama when the very Lamas from whom he received his Buddhist education were not even Buddhist? This is the absurd consequence of the Dalai Lama's argument.
It's very sad that such a rift has developed in the Buddhist community, we should pray for it to be healed in our very lifetimes. May sectarianism, discrimination and political interference in the Dharma be completely eliminated.