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Just one thought. How would you apply the teachings of Lam Rim when your teacher (whether Geshe Kelsang Gyamtso or the Dalai Lama) is insulted and vilified?
Yes, difficult. Glib answer: in stages, step by step. Complicated but woefully incomplete answer:
I had no sooner decided this Buddhist path was for me (first define 'this', 'Buddhist' and 'path'...) than I encountered the Dorje Shugden controversy on the internet. I had only just begun a skeleton Lamrim for absolute beginners at that stage. Obviously I couldn't rely on GKG as my Spiritual Guide until I had established for myself, as best I could anyway, the truth of the situation (and define 'truth').
So I put the actual identity of my Spiritual Guide on hold, metaphorically speaking, and relied directly on Buddha Shakyamuni. (I didn't find this too difficult because I'm used to the devotional life having been a Christian in the past.) I asked Buddha Shakyamuni to help me understand enough to make the right decision, and to guide me in my practice.
Later, I was able to make a decision based on research of both sides of the argument and of a gut feeling that Geshe Kelsang was a true Spiritual Guide.
Also, I consider myself to be a human being first and a Buddhist second. To my understanding, if I meditate on, say, compassion by first thinking of all the suffering of others, then try between meditations to put that compassion into practice, that's a helpful thing to do regardless of what religion or sect I follow, or even of whether my religion or sect is true or false in and of itself. So I got on with doing that. There's plenty to go at in Lamrim, in practical terms, regardless of whether one has found one's spiritual guide yet or not.
From that point of view, i.e. one's personal path, I don't think it matters what other people say about your spiritual guide; it's what you think about him that counts.
I do realise that there are many, many lay and ordained Buddhists who have made an informed decision to follow DL. They must believe that DL is right and GKG is wrong, and have faith in the DL, just as I do in GKG. Everyone cannot be right. But I think it is something to have made a firm decision to the best of one's ability and to stick by it. What worries me more are the people who say, "He MUST be right! He's the Dalai Lama, a holy man; he tells us he is right and a holy man would not lie", or words to that effect. This is circular logic. And now I've strayed completely outside the bounds of your question; sorry!
I suppose the message will only make sense to people who have studied emptiness. Everyone else should indeed heavily scrutinize others in every proper way.
In mahayana buddhism emptiness is the only realistic understanding of the world. Anyone who fully realizes it acts realistically, whereas everyone who has not is totally irrational.
I have only just begun studying the heart sutra this term and have only the sketchiest of understanding of what emptiness is, and 'understanding' is exaggerating rather.
I am truly interested in what you mean; could you explain, please?
I sincerely appreciate your neutrality and I'm sorry if those who view the Dalai Lama as their Teacher are hurt by my words, but this is my understanding and there is plenty of documentary evidence to support it which will be given in the new Western Shugden Society book, 'A Great Deception'.
I've read that, TkpF. It's excellent. Traumatic reading though. I'd come across some of the stuff already online, but I was still shocked by some of it.
You know im never suprised to see people making rude and untrue remarks about other peoples tradition something ive come to expect from the tibetan buddhist community, im never suprised to see people making ignorant comments about who's worshiping a spirit or who's not, fact is there are some people here and else where that will do everything they can to paint GKG and the NKT in a bad light it doesnt bother me as it used to any more im well aware its what they've been conditioned to do sticks and stones....the only awnser i can really give is if you dont feel its the right group for you then you dont have to practise with them, if its the only group in the area stream then you've got your basic buddhist practise before you.
Its always a different situation if your on the receiving end of things i wonder how some of the delicate flowers out there woud fair if someone began levying heavy critisism on their tradition.
Shenpan im sure has a great knowledge of what he practises i dont dispute this but i would dispute the authenticity of someone who claims to be practising buddhism and uses such harmfull terms against others and organisations.
Its always a different situation if your on the receiving end of things i wonder how some of the delicate flowers out there woud fair if someone began levying heavy critisism on their tradition.
Not great Caz. Still as unenlightened as ever... But can't really complain. How about you?
Not to bad friend im back into full time work now which is a great help for me, my practise has gotten better since the days of buddhachat ive learnt alot since then
Its wonderfull to hear from you again friend !
Comments
Yes, difficult. Glib answer: in stages, step by step. Complicated but woefully incomplete answer:
I had no sooner decided this Buddhist path was for me (first define 'this', 'Buddhist' and 'path'...) than I encountered the Dorje Shugden controversy on the internet. I had only just begun a skeleton Lamrim for absolute beginners at that stage. Obviously I couldn't rely on GKG as my Spiritual Guide until I had established for myself, as best I could anyway, the truth of the situation (and define 'truth').
So I put the actual identity of my Spiritual Guide on hold, metaphorically speaking, and relied directly on Buddha Shakyamuni. (I didn't find this too difficult because I'm used to the devotional life having been a Christian in the past.) I asked Buddha Shakyamuni to help me understand enough to make the right decision, and to guide me in my practice.
Later, I was able to make a decision based on research of both sides of the argument and of a gut feeling that Geshe Kelsang was a true Spiritual Guide.
Also, I consider myself to be a human being first and a Buddhist second. To my understanding, if I meditate on, say, compassion by first thinking of all the suffering of others, then try between meditations to put that compassion into practice, that's a helpful thing to do regardless of what religion or sect I follow, or even of whether my religion or sect is true or false in and of itself. So I got on with doing that. There's plenty to go at in Lamrim, in practical terms, regardless of whether one has found one's spiritual guide yet or not.
From that point of view, i.e. one's personal path, I don't think it matters what other people say about your spiritual guide; it's what you think about him that counts.
I do realise that there are many, many lay and ordained Buddhists who have made an informed decision to follow DL. They must believe that DL is right and GKG is wrong, and have faith in the DL, just as I do in GKG. Everyone cannot be right. But I think it is something to have made a firm decision to the best of one's ability and to stick by it. What worries me more are the people who say, "He MUST be right! He's the Dalai Lama, a holy man; he tells us he is right and a holy man would not lie", or words to that effect. This is circular logic. And now I've strayed completely outside the bounds of your question; sorry!
I am truly interested in what you mean; could you explain, please?
Its always a different situation if your on the receiving end of things i wonder how some of the delicate flowers out there woud fair if someone began levying heavy critisism on their tradition.
Shenpan im sure has a great knowledge of what he practises i dont dispute this but i would dispute the authenticity of someone who claims to be practising buddhism and uses such harmfull terms against others and organisations.
Bring it, caz. Whatcha got?
Morales so i wont be posting any
Its is you old friend !
Not great Caz. Still as unenlightened as ever... But can't really complain. How about you?
Not to bad friend im back into full time work now which is a great help for me, my practise has gotten better since the days of buddhachat ive learnt alot since then
Its wonderfull to hear from you again friend !
Oh good for you Caz. Its nice to have you here.
Im all about these days most of the time at buddhaforum.org please keep contact this time you have my email address ? :tonguec:
Caz, no I think I lost it. Please pm me your updated one if you like.
I agree.