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Jhana states in meditation.
chrispche
Southend on Sea, Essex, UK Explorer
What are the jhana states in meditation? I'm not even sure what jhana means? Can anyone clear that up?
Thanks.
Thanks.
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Comments
Have you ever been completely immersed in your meditative practice and felt an overwhelming sense of joy or peace? If so, you've probably already experienced some level of jhana. Most meditators will experience the jhanas at some point.
The word jhana is the Pali equivalent of the Sanskrit dhyana. The Chinese is 禪 {chan / zen} or 禪 {chan-ding / zenjo}. Jhana is one of several terms that can be translated as meditation. I prefer the translation absorption for jhana; some use concentration.
The jhana states also called rupa-jhana; form absorption. These states are also figuratively called meditation heavens, or Brahma Heavens. It is a kind of deep concentration on form. It is defined as meditation with form; but with no sensory contact.
In general, one can enter a form absorption by concentrating on an object, such as the breath, and getting past the 5 mental hindrances. Then, one has to move from access concentration into fixed concentration.
Form Absorption is characterized by 5 or 6 wholesome mental states:
Directed thought and analysis
Aroused interest and sustained attention.
Mental joy, like a rush.
Sustained bliss or contentment
One pointed concentration; everything else is tuned out.
The 6th mental factor is equanimity.
All 5 are present in the first absorption. In the second, the first two fall away. In the 3rd, Joy falls away too, leaving bliss and One pointed-ness. In the 4th and final, the bliss changes into equanimity.
The Form Absorptions are the first part of Samatha. The second part is formless attainment. In these meditations, there is neither form nor contact; just abstract concept, There are also four: Infinite Space, Infinite Consciousness, Infinite Nothingness, and Neither Perception nor Non-perception.Sometimes, cessation is added as a 5th attainment.
It could also describe being engrossed in a good movie or book, too?
when i was on the mushrooms i tried to focus on nothing but a light in my heart. i think it's called loving kindness. it was crazy. and i'd alternate that with contemplation.
There is no momentary experience of jhana. This is just a lower level of oneness & bliss.
So one can tell if it is jhana by the duration? I had never heard this. Or are you just speaking of the 3rd and 4th jhanas? What are these lower levels? Are those momentary and neighborhood samadhi?
I have experienced this many times, although the moments at just fleeting and don't usually last long.
If jhanas are in any way pleasant, and because of this you desire to attain jhanas or even wish to revisit them, haven't they become the children of illusion/desire, and you will suffer?
Is it possible to become attached to jhana, a form of "Spiritual Materialism?"
Just my 2 cents,
and worth every penny,
S9
S9, You may be confusing two terms, jnana and jhana. Jnana is a cognate of gnosis and refers to subjective knowledge. Jna = to know + -na. The na makes it a noun. The Chinese is 智 {zhi, chi}
Jhana is the Pali equivalent of Dhyana; from dhya = to contemplate or ponder deeply, plus -na. The Chinese is 禅 {chan, zen}. This, jhana / dhyana / 禅i is what we are discussing here.
I have a tentative opinion on the issue you raised; about the value of the meditative absorptions; but I shall keep it to myself for now ...
I guess you are right. I thought they were just two different spelling s of the same word, although I was familiar with these two definitions.
So often one word mean multiple things. I will change the spelling, but my point still stands as presented.
Are you feeling better?
S9
IMHO, the jhanas are not dependent on duration. Your level on concentration is more relevant to the duration. There are a lot of momentary experiences, brief insights and peak experiences to be had, and of course these things are not always jhanas, but sometimes they are. In my meditative experiences, I've found a lot of things tend to come in irregular spurts. So, I doubt a uniform structure or progression thought the jhanas for everyone. At best these things are rough guidelines to help us understand it, not a concrete law of how higher meditative states function.
I think getting caught up on what level of jhana, or how long of an absorption one has had, can be a hindrance on the path. It's important to remember that the jhanas are merely signposts on the way to the goal, not the goal itself.
That's good. Maybe discuss your experiences with your teacher if you have one. Many people can enter the jhanas, but it is more difficult to maintain that level of absorption without becoming distracted. Building more concentration can help with this.
This is a well-recognized problem with the practice:
S9
You are saying something like this. Equanimity is okay, only if we do not go on to think “equanimity is happening to me, or identify with it as in “I am as person who has attained/owns equanimity? Correct?
I cannot tell you how robby see subjective knowledge, as I am already questioning him upon it. But, I see subjective knowledge as what is gained by looking inward, Knowledge of our subjective world which is unshared and not material. How deeply you look within IMPO is the only difference between our first sitting down on the cushion, and Liberation.
Looking within can be either meditive or contemplative. These differences are subtle. But, I see meditation as searching, and contemplation as looking at what was found. I'm sure robby can do better than that.
I thought it was interesting that Ananda had to wait for the death of his much loved Buddha to gain Liberation. Shows you, nothing is okay to be attached to.
Thanks for answering,
S9
Jnana is what one knows; it is known. One can know jhana. One can know samapatti / shamapati. One can know sati / smrti. One can know sushi. My understanding is that jnana or gnosis means to know by direct experience. To see Mumbai. There are two words that mean almost the same thing as jnana; but have their own nuances. Those are vijja / vidya 明 or objective wisdom and panna / pra-jna 慧 or discerning wisdom.
There is also vijnana 識 {vi - jna - na}; meaning either discrimination or consciousness. Vi- is a curious prefix; it functions like dis- in English; but is never a negation. It can mean apart, separate, divided {like the dis in disjointed}; or it can be an intensifier {like the dis in disgruntled}. Oh. there is also sam-jna 假建立 or 想 -- conceptualization or perception. Sam- is cognate of same; and can work like com- {with} or dia- {across}.
Jhana is a meditative state; a deep level of concentration; one in which there is perception of form, but no sensory contact. There is also samapatti 等至 -- in which there is no form at all. There is also sati / smrti 念 -- which is more of a spacious awareness; an alert, attentive, multitasking sort of concentration; one in which the mind is not fixed on one object.
As always; that is just my take, right now.
In terms of dependent origination, the equanimity/pleasure becomes the basis for the self concept. That's what he means by "sustenance." Meditative attainments which feel good or otherwise strengthen the practitioner can become something he craves, and as a result come to comprise a component of a self-concept. In dependent origination, this is called becoming, and it is counterproductive, because becoming always leads to decay and death of the self concept, which leads to suffering, which is exactly the thing the practice is intended to end.
Jhanas are a sign post on the path.
If one's mind is established in non-attachment, inevitably, the mind must pass through the jhanas.
Equally, if the mind is established in the seeing of illusoriness, the mind must pass through the jhanas.
Often our views about 'illusion' are merely intellectual wishful nihilism rather than clear seeing.
Not the same, not the same. Drugs (including those mushrooms) are like watching 14" black-and-white TV for the first time ... quite amazing.
But a truly good meditation is like IMAX theatre.
Once you have seen the IMAX you will never care to watch that 14" TV again. Not the same, not the same.
S9: That is a little vague. I made a number of points?
S9: Ah, and “what do these signs say,” or is it, “how do they direct us?”
S9: So, if we are non-attached, than we can skip over them Jhanas altogether, and not make a stop over in them?
S9: In other words Jhanas are illusions within the illusion-al mind?
S9: Could you say that differently, emphasizing how you see nihilism in some detail, please? I have notice you use that word (nihilism) frequently, and never quite know how you use it, or rather what you mean by it.
(Obviously I am acquaited with the dictionaries meaning for nihilism. So, please, don't sum this up as a lack of vocabulary on my part. )
Nihilism a word that is just riddled with people’s opinions on what it means, I have found.
Thanx,
S9
R: Jhana is a meditative state; a deep level of concentration; one in which there is perception of form, but no sensory contact.
S9: Yes, but don’t you know this meditative state? Is there some difference in knowing? Don’t we look directly at the meditative state as well?
S9:
F: Dhamma raises a good point. They're primarily useful as diagnostics.
S9: Diagnostics, or perhaps symptoms, if they must be passed over/through, and left behind. What if they are symptoms of what our mind still wishes to own?
They do become a trap if we glory in them.
S9
It's true there are people who wish they have attained the jhanas who have not. There is a real danger of becoming attached to such things or deluded by them, I agree. The dangers have been mentioned in this thread, and I fully agree that one should be cautious with regards to these things.
Based on my own experiences and having talked with many other meditators over the years, the jhanas seem to be a fairly common experience. I am of mind that the Buddha taught a path that was attainable for most of us. To that extent, I do not see the jhanas as something rare and exotic, attainable only by a few, but rather something that happens naturally to most of us that pursue the path.
Kind sir, it's wonderful if you were able to enter the jhanas and remain absorbed in them for hours on your first go at it, but many others I have spoken with have mentioned briefly entering the jhanas at first. Many seem to become distracted by the experience itself, which breaks their concentration and forces them out of the jhana, thus leading to only a fleeting momentary experience of the jhanas. Over time, and with increased concentration, many seem to be able to overcome that distraction and navigate the jhanas for longer durations.
Of course. One can know about the meditative states. That can be from an intellectual understanding {ordinary prajna?} of the recorded wisdom {vidya}. My understanding is that jnana indicates a direct knowing; a first hand knowledge. The thing is, jhana is only one of countless things one might know directly. One can know about eating a peach. Or one can eat a peach, and know directly.
We should not conflate knowing with the object of knowing; unless we are talking non-dualism. In that case, the knower, the knowledge and object are one. In that case, we could say jnana {knowing} is eating a peach. Jnana can then mean anything; it becomes a pointless word. I guess at some level, all words are pointless?
If we are using conventional discernment; in the sense of telling one concept from another; then jnana and jhana are not synonyms; not even close.
Samatha / shamatha, Samadhi, Jhana / dhyana, Shamapathi / samapatt, Nirodha, Sati / smrti, and Vipassana / vipashyana are all close in meaning. If used casually or in the general sense; could be considered synonyms. They are all kinds of meditative states and/or approaches to meditation; they all belong to the same "set." The meaning of these words is pretty clear; most teachers agree, even though there are some variances in translations from Sanskrit to Chinese, as well as other languages to English.
Jnana, Panna / prajna, Passa / passa {in the figurative sense}, Vipassa / vipashya, Lok {in the figurative sense}, Vijja / vidya, and even Atha / artha {in some contexts} would belong to a set that refers to knowing / knowledge, seeing / sight, and wisdom. Even among qualified teachers, there is some confounding of the meaning of these words.
- Jnana: Subjective Knowledge. Both direct knowing and the knowledge obtained. 智
- Prajna: Discerning wisdom, discernment, an ability. 慧
- Passa: Seeing; inspecting, can be used figuratively -- insight. 観
- Vipassa: Spiritual Insight. 観
- Lok: To look, observe 観
- Vidya: Objective Wisdom, science, lore. 明 {light, bright}
- Artha: Can mean a material skill, know how, or savvy. Also a material gain or advantage. {Also can mean other things}. 事
If you can see the Chinese or kanji script you can see that there were a lot of homonyms created when the words were translated from Sanskrit. Sorting it requires some swag. As always, this is just my take right now. I am constantly learning.I agree with this. I do not think the Meditative Absorptions are rarefied states out of reach of ordinary humans. I also do not think they lead to Awakening. Imo, they are part of a preparation; but can even turn into a spiritual dead end.
I think that vipassana or spiritual introspection is the direct path to what the Buddha called Unbinding {Nibbana / Nnrvana} and / or Spiritual Purification{Visuddha / vishuddha}. I think that the Buddha taught cattaro satipatthana, the Four Frameworks of Mindfulness, as the primary way to do vipassana.
Of course, this thread is about the Jhanas; meditative absorptions that are part of samatha and samatha is a preparation for vipassana -- IMO. BTW, I mean vipassana as the method; not as the brand name of a group.
I believe that some jhanas are available to all of us. But, like anything I believe there is also capacity, so that a skill can be gained by those with natural ability more easily than those who must struggle in order to perform the same feat.
Sometimes people end up in these Jhanas quite by accident but are unable to sustain them for any length of time, not understanding what they have stumbled upon. What some Tibetans are able to do in these realms borders on genius.
This idea that a distraction can throw you out of a jhana is what points me towards believing that these are trance states.
Sure people carry an afterglow with them sometimes for longer than the experience itself, but I see that as being much like the after glow of exercise or even a sexual orgasm.
It would be interesting to see how others speak to this.
Warm Regards,
S9
As I said, jhanas are a sign of non-attachment. It is not possible to skip over them because they are part of the purification process.
When a practitioner has purified the mental formations in the body, the mind enters jhana to purify the mental formations in the brain. Naturally, in this process, the factors of jhana arise, namely, rapture, happiness & one-pointedness. These factors are mere automatic reactions of the nervous system. They have little to do with intention. These factors are naturally purified also, when the mind is properly established in non-attachment. They cannot be skipped.
As a Hindu, you would be aware of the chakras or nervous centres. Whilst Buddhism does not teach about the chakras, they are a good model. When the lower centres are purified of mental disturbance, consciousness gathers in the higher chakras. This is jhana, which ends when the higher centres are purified.
Nihilism is denial, such as when the mind has lust, hatred & delusion but we declare it is all illusion or maya. If the mind has penetrated the reality of illusion, it will be free from lust, hatred & delusion.
Kind regards
:smilec:
The Buddha regarded the jhanas as somewhat 'supernormal'.
That is obvious.
Where did I say that? Jhana is something cultivated. Even the great Maha Moggallana had to cultivate his jhana.
There is no 'first go' (unless one is a spiritual freak like child Prince Siddharta when he sat under the rose apple tree or Dipa Ma or Sri Ramana Maharshi ).
These 'many others' are equally deluded and self-affirming.
That is impossible because a factor of jhana is one-pointedness. One-pointedness is when the mind sticks immovably like glue or a magnet to the mental image that arises.
It is impossible to become distracted in jhana because jhana is attainment concentration.
It is important to be aware the Theravavda Commentaries correctly list (amongst their many errors) three kinds of concentration, namely, momentary concentration, neighbourhood/access concentration & attainment concentration. Jhana is attainment concentration.
Momentary uncontrollable rapture is not jhana. This is born from momentary concentration. Momentary rapture is like catharsis. When this happens to new meditators on retreat, they cannot control their minds and cannot sleep at night. This arises from suppression.
Real jhana is silky smooth. It arises from non-attachment, opening and purifying the sankhara rather than from suppression.
Meditators who are established in both neighbourhood concentration & attainment concentration have no issues with distraction & rapture.
It should be noted, certain Theravada teachers, most notably the disciples of Ayya Kema such as Leigh Brasington, teach momentary rapture is jhana.
Subjectivity9, are you a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner? Could you explain this further please?
and also :
I gather you've had this 'afterglow' yourself then?
Kind wishes,
Dazzle
It is best to understand the satipatthana via the Anapanasati Sutta, where the Buddha taught perfecting anapanasati perfects the satipatthana.
In the Anapanasati Sutta, the Buddha taught about rapture & happiness as vedana. The instruction in the Anapanasati Sutta can only be practised on the levels of neighbourhood & attainment concentration whereas the myriad disconnected instructions in the Satipatthana Sutta can additionally be practised on the level of momentary concentration (although the vipassana will mostly be 'auto-suggestion').
'Rising, falling, rising, falling'...like the Mahasi auto-suggestion brainwashing.
Jhana is not 'trance'. The mind is lucidly clear in jhana.
Excellent & realistic metaphor about attachment to delusions & experiences.
:tonguec:
No, I am not (just) a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner, although I do receive 2 of their excellent magazines in the mail, and read them from cover to cover…even the commercials. ; ^ )
The closest I can come to saying what I am is, “I am a Mystic.” What I believe to be the Ultimate Truth is the crowning glory of every major religion (there is a great consistency at this upper level), and so I have spent more decades than I care to count, studying them all.
Obviously in doing this, you are going to choose some favorite flavors. Buddhism is one of those for me.
I believe that two of my practices are shared by the Tibetans: watching breath, and mindfulness. But, these are not theirs exclusively.
I have dabbled in the mind practices of the Tibetans, and see them as very worthwhile for training the mind to increase concentration.
My practice of metta might be closer to what some call "good works" having had 2 careers, one in medicine, and the other in psychology. I like to take my practice out of the sky, and back into the world. I believe we can fool ourselves by pretending accomplishments, if we don’t have to live them.
I try not to speak about things that get too far away from my own personal experience. There is such a tendency in the mind to wander into imagination. So yes, I have had many periods of afterglow at multiple stages of my development, some lasting days. I believe that I have witnessed what some call Samadhis, or something quite wonderful. I have witnessed many trance states. I have had many insights, and unusual experiences that were life changing. My path has been my life, and so has had a certain intensity.
But, I believe that most of these have been shared by others, and are not that unusual, or special to me. It is a matter of putting in the effort and receiving the reward.
Most of these however, my friend, have revealed themselves to be mind states at some point, and have willingly, or not so willingly, been left behind.
Now, I am not saying that these experiences didn’t serve me well. I am just saying that they can be BOTH friend and foe. Hang on to them too long, and they be come a trap. Identify with them and they become spiritual chains.
Hope this helps you in some small way,
S9
They're not. They're an indication that a certain level of peace and stability has been attained. They end if wanting and grasping arise.
The reason for my query was because I'm an offline Tibetan Buddhist practitioner myself (with an interest in Theravada too) and had no idea of what you were refering to.
I think its worthwhile remembering that Tibetan Buddhism is meant to be practised with one-to -one input from a teacher. There's a great danger of drifting off into fanciful notions otherwise. My Tibetan teachers have always told me that one shouldn't dwell on 'experiences' one should just let them go. For this reason I usually don't talk about my own.
There are many different kinds of experience we can have during the course of our practice. They're not particularly special or important. "Trance states" aren't part of any practice that I'm familiar with myself though - maybe this is something Hindu perhaps ?
Anyway, I wish you well on your path of choice.
Kind regards,
Dazzle
Yes, obviously Jhanas indicate a certain high grade of concentration, no doubt. But, can these indicators also be carried with you into your working/daily life?
Perhaps, it is because I think differently about attainment than some persons here, that, we are having some trouble communicating on this topic.
But, doesn’t attainment mean that it is a permanent gain of some kind, and not just something you can once again call up, if, and only if, you are once again sitting on the cushion?
In other words, do you continue to live that concentrated in some way, from that moment forward? Or as I suspect, is it a trance state that cannot be sustained outside of meditation proper? Then, how would it be that different from any induced state, like hyperventilating, for instance?
I am not denying that there is a possible learning experience within gaining certain states. But, we learn from everything, do we not?
S9
That has been my experience. After meditating, I had continued to experience this "after-glow" for quite some time. Not every time but on occasion. I wonder if this is subconscious attachment to the experience? It is pleasant and refreshing. I have since rarely experienced it and not with this afterglow.
A: That has been my experience. After meditating, I had continued to experience this "after-glow" for quite some time.
S9: I believe that meditations of different varieties alter our consciousness in various ways. Whatever it is, it seems to accumulate to some degree, if we meditate continuously/consistently, and even more if you do it a number of times daily.
I cannot explain why, or how this afterglow comes about.
It was often during this afterglow period in my life, that I witnessed more and life changing insights. Things that I had wondered about for years would suddenly come clear. Unusual experiences would spring up, which often duplicated things that I had only read about in the words of my masters, and teachers.
The Dalai Lama, who has a fondness for science is looking into some of these things in a co-operation with scientists in the last number of years. This may prove interesting.
AB: I wonder if this is subconscious attachment to the experience?
S9: Judging on my own experience only, I wouldn’t say so. I think it is something more natural, much like feelings of well being after eating, or sleeping, (cycles that come and go). I think also that the meditative state is a healthy part of who we all are, both physically and mentally, and we have lost these native abilities (forgotten them) similar to the way that many of us have forgotten how to relax.
AB: It is pleasant and refreshing. I have since rarely experienced it and not with this afterglow.
S9: Everything pulses. But, often such experiences return again and much improved, as they grow strong in an unseen fashion through our efforts. Even disappointment strengthens intension. What we see as our intention is actually our Buddha Nature (like a magnet) draws us home, or said differently, making us whole.
S9
S9: I think that there is a difference between dwelling on one’s experiences, and sharing them with others so that they may benefit in some small way, hopefully.
It is also a little bit like poison ivy. If you are not allergic to the stuff, you can roll in it all day long. I just need to walk within a city block of the stuff to feel itchy. ; ^ )
So if you are not attached to such experiences, well, you can roll in them without any fear of attachment. Jhana are not Velcro. They require some unfulfilled need within you in order to become a problem.
It may be how you define ‘trance states’ that makes them difficult to identify them. Some people think of them as a bigger deal than they actually are.
The body/mind is the body/mind. It makes little difference if you call yourself a Buddhist or a Hindu, if you perform certain practices or ritualistic actions, pretty much the same thing will happen.
As far as this requirement of having a teacher goes, I don’t think that one size fits all. Also, different times during your life may vary this need. IMPO But, we have discussed this before.
S9
I disagree - but we clearly have different approaches.
Thank you for your comments.
Best wishes for your practice and for the coming year.
Dazzle
.
Dazzle and Dhamma, enough said. Both of you have a good New Year.
S9
One of the things I love about you is, how honest you are when you don’t know something. It is worthy of noting. : ^ )
I look forward to hearing more, when you know more. You have a generous heart.
I can’t buy a lot of books, but will look into Ajahn Brahm on the web.
Thanx,
S9
I liked what Dharma Dhatu wrote about the three levels of concentration. This is something I am researching in some detail. More coming on that. In another thread, or was it this one, or elsewhere {?} I used the analogy of an elevator. It is an elevator that takes one to 4 floors. There are a total of 6 kinds of rooms without doors. The windows are closed and cutains drawn. The first floor has 5 rooms.
We see the elevator, approach it, and maybe venerate it = momentary concentration.
We get on the elevator and go for a ride. The elevator stops at the first floor, we look around; but for various reasons; we do not get off. For some, the ride is scary; for others it is a thrill. This is neighborhood or access concentration.
The elevator stops at the first floor. There is that slight sinking feeling one might get on an actual elevator. When the door opens; we get off, direct our attention, and observe what is in the room. Our interest is aroused; our attention becomes rapt. We experience the arising of the mood of emotional joy. There is a feeling of sustained bliss and comfort. Now our concentration is one-pointed; we are in the room, fully absorbed. At this point; we still have the concept of form {color, shape, and do on}; but there is no sensory contact with form. We might feel as though we are sitting in the air, or on a cloud.
Also, someone mentioned the afterglow. I think this is a product of sustained bliss. The term is sukha 樂 . That is the sukha in the word sukhavati. The Buddha also gave sukha as one three kinds of vedana. The others dukkha {pain, stress, angst, sorrow, dissatisfaction, blues} and neutral {neither bliss nor stress}.
The kind of bliss from meditative is more stable than the pleasure derived from sensory contact; but it is still transient. From the standpoint of cosmology; the bliss of sensory contact is in the heavens of the Realm of Lust. The Bliss of Jhana is in the heavens of the Realm of Form, aka Brahma Heavens, or Fine Material Meditative Heavens. As such, even the latter is still unstable. It arises; and shall fall.
The Buddha had a radiant appearance. Someone asked him if he were a Deva {shining being; a kind of benevolent divinity in Brahmanism}. He replied that he was awake {Buddha and Bodhi are derived from a verbal root meaning awake, iirc}. I think is from a different kind of bliss; one that is non-arisen and connected with a purified, unborn, inner beauty {Shuddha / Subha},; cognizance or perception of an uncreated, eternal constancy and infinite immediacy; and an authentic uncompounded self-less-ness. This, Imo. is death-less-ness.
The Buddha made reference to purification of luminous citta. I think this is the same as Buddha Nature or Ninth Consciousness {Amala}. This, IMO. is like the sun behind the clouds of delusion. I think the bliss of momentary pleasure, and to an extent, of jhana, is sort of filtered or reflected radiance. That is why the glow wears off; it is still more {sensory} or less {jhanic} impure, arisen, created, and conditioned.
This is from page 136, and seems to suggest a momentary experience of the jhanas. Specifically the bit about absorption being a single consciousness moment.
This is from page 143 and seems to suggest a distinction between entering/touching the jhanas and dwelling/staying in the jhanas.
This is just my limited understanding of the subject. Maybe it will be helpful to some.
I am a scientist. Bullshit always comes back to haunt me.
He's great. Lots of really good dharma talks, as well as writing.
Good stuff. As I see it, jhana / dhyana and sati / smrti work side by side. I still see the Absorptions as a means to Mindfulness; and Mindfulness as a means to discernment or direct insight.
Here is another thing; perhaps you can shed some light upon. I have noticed that some have preparation concentration {parikamma samadhi} as the lower level; while others have momentary concentration {khanIka samadhi}. The latter implies something that happens haphazardly; while former implies deliberate actions.