Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
I have never seen jhana states so well described in detail than in the book by Ajahn Brahm: mindfulness bliss and beyond. He describes the jhana states in full detailed chapters explaining how one can recongnize later if they were in a jhana or not. I recommend you go through this book.
In short, jhanas as I understand are peakened states of mindfulness where the "doer" portion of the mind is completely absent. You are not in control anymore. You cannot initiate any thoughts or anything for that matter and it is said that these jhana experiences greatly reduce a person's ego and the notion of "selfhood" begins to disappear in jhanas.
Only the"knower" is present in the first jhanas but this "knower" also gradually fades into nothingness as jhana states increase thus the fourth jhana which is "neither perception nor non-perception". As you gradually go up one jhana after the other, the mind eventually stops. When it arises again the individual has gained the attainment of nibbana
Jhanas are states of letting go. You let go to the end. All four jhanas are superbly described in the book by ajhan brahm
In Samyutta Nikaya and Majjhima Nikaya there seems to be a mention of "Unestablished conciousness"
Are you familiar with this?
I found this interesting because it comes close to describing my feeling in contemplation.
Quoted from a posting:
This is termed viññanam anidassanam — consciousness without a surface, or consciousness without feature. MN 49 says specifically that this consciousness does not partake of the "allness of the all," the "all" being conterminous with the five aggregates. The standard definition of the aggregate of consciousness states that this aggregate includes all consciousness, "past, present, or future... near or far." However, because viññanam anidassanam stands outside of space and time it would not be covered by these terms.
Only the "knower" is present in the first jhanas but this "knower" also gradually fades into nothingness as jhana states increase.
S9: I have often wondered if it weren’t just the personification of the knower that fades and disappeared in these higher states.
It seems reasonable to me that if there were no knower to know (No knowing going on) in these states, who would report back to your conscious mind what actually took place there? In other words, who would remember?
These higher states would be closer to what we now know of deep sleep, dark and without any information at/all. We would only know something happened by checking the clock and seeing that time had passed.
I have never seen jhana states so well described in detail than in the book by Ajahn Brahm: mindfulness bliss and beyond. He describes the jhana states in full detailed chapters explaining how one can recongnize later if they were in a jhana or not. I recommend you go through this book.
Hi
The few excerpts I have read from this book sound very good. From the little I have read, I would also recommend it.
You are not in control anymore. You cannot initiate any thoughts or anything for that matter and it is said that these jhana experiences greatly reduce a person's ego and the notion of "selfhood" begins to disappear in jhanas.
All right meditation reduces ego. Ego can be greatly reduced well before jhana. In jhana, thought is basically absent so ego is naturally absent. But it is important not to identify "ego" with "thought". Real enlightenment is seeing clearly thought is not ego rather than seeing thought is ego. Many regard thought as ego.
Only the"knower" is present in the first jhanas but this "knower" also gradually fades into nothingness as jhana states increase thus the fourth jhana which is "neither perception nor non-perception".
The fourth jhana is not neither perception nor non-perception. The jhana of neither perception nor non-perception is the eighth jhana. The stopping of the mind is not the attainment of nibbana. The jhanas have no relationship to Nibbana whatsover. Their selflessness provides a taste of Nibbana but is not Nibbana. Nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. When we say Nibbana is the mind stopping, we fall into the error of the Tibetans who ascribe the state of nothingness and the state of non-thinking is Nibbana. The Buddha spent 45 years in Nibbana. He spent much of that 45 years thinking, speaking and describing things.
Jhanas are states of letting go. You let go to the end.
All right meditation comes from letting go. Right concentration is the mind with a sole object, namely, non-attachment towards the five aggregates.
In brief, either yourself or Ajahn Brahm is over-emphasising the importance of the jhanas. Meditation is letting go. It is not jhana. Jhanas are not states of letting go per se. They are merely signs of a certain level of mental purification. When the mental formations within the body have been purified, the mind enters jhana so the mind & brain can also be purified.
Ajahn Brahm is correct in emphasing jhanas are fruits of letting go. In other words, jhanas are not fruits of 'suppression' as is often taught in Theravada Buddhism.
Jhana & letting go occur via 'opening & freeing' the mind rather than via 'suppression'.
I found this interesting because it comes close to describing my feeling in contemplation.
This is chicken before the egg, egg before the chicken theory. As Ajahn Brahm advised, jhanas are states of letting go, born of letting go.
Viññanam anidassanam is a term found in the suttas as merely one description about liberated consciousness.
In other words, baby or egg viññanam anidassanam is required to lead to adult or chicken viññanam anidassanam.
If one has not passed through the jhanas, their viññanam anidassanam is merely baby or egg viññanam anidassanam. One has not cultivated it and turned the yeast viññanam anidassanam into bread.
It is stream entry viññanam anidassanam rather than arahant viññanam anidassanam.
In other words, the viññanam anidassanam you think you have attained is not the Buddha's viññanam anidassanam.
It seems reasonable to me that if there were no knower to know (No knowing going on) in these states, who would report back to your conscious mind what actually took place there? In other words, who would remember?
Your question is not fitting. In Buddhism, as opposed the theistic religions, the question is always "what" and never "who".
These higher states would be closer to what we now know of deep sleep, dark and without any information at/all. We would only know something happened by checking the clock and seeing that time had passed.
These states have nothing whatsover to deep sleep. In fact, the mind will have an intuitive sense of time and how long it has dwelt in such a state.
It seems reasonable to me that if there were no knower to know (No knowing going on) in these states, who would report back to your conscious mind what actually took place there? In other words, who would remember?
</DT><DT>SN 12.12: Phagguna Sutta — To Phagguna - Some questions, by presupposing the existence of an abiding "self," are fundamentally invalid. The Buddha shows how to re-frame these questions in a way that conduces to liberation.</DT><DT>
I have never seen jhana states so well described in detail than in the book by Ajahn Brahm: mindfulness bliss and beyond. He describes the jhana states in full detailed chapters explaining how one can recongnize later if they were in a jhana or not. I recommend you go through this book.
In short, jhanas as I understand are peakened states of mindfulness where the "doer" portion of the mind is completely absent. You are not in control anymore. You cannot initiate any thoughts or anything for that matter and it is said that these jhana experiences greatly reduce a person's ego and the notion of "selfhood" begins to disappear in jhanas.
Only the"knower" is present in the first jhanas but this "knower" also gradually fades into nothingness as jhana states increase thus the fourth jhana which is "neither perception nor non-perception". As you gradually go up one jhana after the other, the mind eventually stops. When it arises again the individual has gained the attainment of nibbana
Jhanas are states of letting go. You let go to the end. All four jhanas are superbly described in the book by ajhan brahm
Well, first of all, in the first jhana, both discursive thought, in the form of directed thought; and aroused interest are present in the first jhana. These vanish as one enters the second.
Secondly, "neither perception nor non-perception" is the Fourth Samaapatti; not the 4th jhana. The 4th Jhana is equanimity {uppeka}.
Now, on not being in control; I am not so sure about that. I think it is a different kind of control. The reason I suggest this is because samma vayama -- the proper exertion, comes into play. That. I think, is a prerequisite for both Samatha {samadhi. dhyana, samaapatti, nirodha} and for Mindfulness. Right exertion includes restraint, abandonment. cultivation, and, and maintenance. So there must be some kind of control?
On attaining nibbana / nirvana, That might be after re-entry from Nirodha-samapatti; but I am not too sure about that. There are four stages od awakening; Stream Entry, Once Returning, Non-Returning, and Arahant. The Arahant, iirc, has achieved unbinding and purification; and can see things are they are, Unbinding {nirvana} and Purity {Visuddha} might be two words for the same same thing. Nirvana - waking up from samsara; Visuddha = waking up to the deathless state.
In Samatha, after attaining Fixed Concentration; there are 9 levels. There are four form absorptions {rupa jhana} in the fine material heavens, four formless attainments {samaapatti} in the immaterial heavens, and finally the 9th level of cessation {nirodha}.
It seems pretty clear that one can attain once returning and maybe non-returning via the jhanas and samaapattis. I am not sure about arahant.
The few excerpts I have read from this book sound very good. From the little I have read, I would also recommend it.
All right meditation reduces ego. Ego can be greatly reduced well before jhana. In jhana, thought is basically absent so ego is naturally absent. But it is important not to identify "ego" with "thought". Real enlightenment is seeing clearly thought is not ego rather than seeing thought is ego. Many regard thought as ego.
The fourth jhana is not neither perception nor non-perception. The jhana of neither perception nor non-perception is the eighth jhana. The stopping of the mind is not the attainment of nibbana. The jhanas have no relationship to Nibbana whatsover. Their selflessness provides a taste of Nibbana but is not Nibbana. Nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. When we say Nibbana is the mind stopping, we fall into the error of the Tibetans who ascribe the state of nothingness and the state of non-thinking is Nibbana. The Buddha spent 45 years in Nibbana. He spent much of that 45 years thinking, speaking and describing things.
All right meditation comes from letting go. Right concentration is the mind with a sole object, namely, non-attachment towards the five aggregates.
In brief, either yourself or Ajahn Brahm is over-emphasising the importance of the jhanas. Meditation is letting go. It is not jhana. Jhanas are not states of letting go per se. They are merely signs of a certain level of mental purification. When the mental formations within the body have been purified, the mind enters jhana so the mind & brain can also be purified.
Ajahn Brahm is correct in emphasing jhanas are fruits of letting go. In other words, jhanas are not fruits of 'suppression' as is often taught in Theravada Buddhism.
Jhana & letting go occur via 'opening & freeing' the mind rather than via 'suppression'.
Kind regards
If they are the fruits of 'letting go', do you mean letting go of 'self' or letting go of the idea that self exists?
In Samyutta Nikaya and Majjhima Nikaya there seems to be a mention of "Unestablished conciousness"
Are you familiar with this?
I found this interesting because it comes close to describing my feeling in contemplation.
Quoted from a posting:
This is termed viññanam anidassanam — consciousness without a surface, or consciousness without feature. MN 49 says specifically that this consciousness does not partake of the "allness of the all," the "all" being conterminous with the five aggregates. The standard definition of the aggregate of consciousness states that this aggregate includes all consciousness, "past, present, or future... near or far." However, because viññanam anidassanam stands outside of space and time it would not be covered by these terms.
S9
I am more familiar with Tiantai theories of Consciousness. I am only beginning to look at the Theravadin model; so that does not ring any bells right now.
The fellow who wrote this Phagguna Sutta would have me see/believe that there is a jhana going on without any “who/self” to feel/crave/remember/whatever what was taking place.
But that just begs the question, does it not, “Why isn’t a Jhana a mind state, like any other mind state, and victim to all that implies?
Also, I have to question whether you are just merely thinly disguising this knower by turning him/it into a verb, or a process, instead of leaving him a personified knower, or a noun. Obviously, knowing is going on, is it not?
The fellow who wrote this Phagguna Sutta would have me see/believe that there is a jhana going on without any “who/self” to feel/crave/remember/whatever what was taking place.
But that just begs the question, does it not, “Why isn’t a Jhana a mind state, like any other mind state, and victim to all that implies?
Also, I have to question whether you are just merely thinly disguising this knower by turning him/it into a verb, or a process, instead of leaving him a personified knower, or a noun. Obviously, knowing is going on, is it not?
S9
The pure being is neither a process nor a fixed self. That said, I think there is an element of conditioned self in jhana. The fine material and formless meditative heavens are still part of samsara. They are not Awakening, IMO.
My take is still that developing the jhanas is not a prerequisite to Awakening. I see Vipassana / Insight as the way to awakening. The Four Frameworks of Mindfulness, IMO, is the path that leads more directly to Insight. I see the arising of Jhanas as useful skills that can be applied to Mindfulness. I also think there are ways, other than the Four Frameworks of Mindfulness, that can lead one to direct insight. I would point to the Paccekabuddhas. How did they awaken?
All right meditation reduces ego. Ego can be greatly reduced well before jhana. In jhana, thought is basically absent so ego is naturally absent. But it is important not to identify "ego" with "thought". Real enlightenment is seeing clearly thought is not ego rather than seeing thought is ego. Many regard thought as ego.
Yes all meditation reduces ego. What I meant was that when a person’s doer portion of the mind disappears and they are not in control of the things that happen in jhana stages that is said to reduce a person’s idea of a “selfhood” to a greater degree. The thought that “there is me and I am in control of myself” begin to get contradicted.
The stopping of the mind is not the attainment of nibbana. The jhanas have no relationship to Nibbana whatsover. Their selflessness provides a taste of Nibbana but is not Nibbana. Nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. When we say Nibbana is the mind stopping, we fall into the error of the Tibetans who ascribe the state of nothingness and the state of non-thinking is Nibbana. The Buddha spent 45 years in Nibbana. He spent much of that 45 years thinking, speaking and describing things.
Nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. There is no argument on that. What I thought was when the mind attends to the state of nothingness a person’s perceptions of greed, hatred & delusion disappears. If fact all perceptions disappear. Obviously they start to disappear in higher jhana levels as well as during deep meditation as well as when a person practices sathipattana. But there is a point where the person reaches and when he returns from that he has demolished all defilements and attained nibbana.
From what I have read so far I am under the impression that you cannot fully understand “non-self”, “anicca” or “dukkha” by mere reasoning. We all know things are impermanent. That doesn’t mean we are arahaths. These delusions go beyond the day to day observations to hard coded defilements which cannot be eradicated without reaching jhana states through meditation. Anyone who has attended nibbana can spend any number of years “thinking, speaking and describing things”. I am not saying nibbana is when the mind attends to nothingness and stays there without returning.
Jhanas are not states of letting go per se. They are merely signs of a certain level of mental purification. When the mental formations within the body have been purified, the mind enters jhana so the mind & brain can also be purified.
Ajahn Brahm is correct in emphasing jhanas are fruits of letting go. In other words, jhanas are not fruits of 'suppression' as is often taught in Theravada Buddhism.
Jhana & letting go occur via 'opening & freeing' the mind rather than via 'suppression'.
First you say jhanas are not really states of letting and then you say Ajahn Brahm is correct in emphasing jhanas are fruits of letting go. I don’t see any real information in the statement that “jhanas are merely signs of a certain level of mental purification”. That seriously lacks any valuable information to me. Maybe you have a point here but it is nothing much compared to the very comprehensive descriptions in the book so I am going to stick with the book.
I highly recommend reading it because from all the Buddhist texts on meditation I have read so far none really gave specific detailed information on what jhana actually is and how one experiences it. People can go on and on about this is this and that is that and we can go on and on debating over it. Wouldn’t it be better to read something a monk who has years of experience in the thai forest tradition got to say?
So please read this book from start to end. It made a big difference in my practice
I was taught that there are 4 jhanas, 4 samaapatis, and one more level.
Four Jhanas; Form but no contact, the fine material realm
1. 5 factors: Directed thought, rapt attention, joy, bliss, & one-pointed-ness. Brahma Heavens.
2. Directed thought and rapt attention dissipate; piti, sukha, and ekagatta remain. Heavens of Light.
3. Only bliss and ekagatta remain. Heavens of Purity.
4. Bliss and ekagatta fade into Uppeka {equanimity}. Highest Heavens. The Pure Abodes of Anagamins are the highest of these.
Four Attainments; Neither form nor contact. The immaterial realm.
1. Boundlessness of Empty Space.
2. Boundlessness of Consciousness
3. Boundlessness of Nothingness.
4. Neither Perception nor Non-preception.
The 9th is Cessation -- Nirodha Samapati
These are all still in the Heavenly Realms; so they are still samsaric.
Jhanas are states of letting go. You let go to the end
.
This description of Vipassana practice is a way of developing vipassana knowledge through direct experience. The vipassana jhanas as taught by U Pandita contrast with the samatha jhanas as described by Buddhaghosa in his work the Visuddhimagga. According to Buddhagosa's method, Jhana practice is separate from vipassana. Ones mind becomes absobed in fixed concentration on the object and the meditator must come out of jhana to practice vipassana. However, jhana as taught by U Pandita allows for insight practice whilst in jhana. The meditators mind does not merge with the object but rather becomes ever more still whilst the flow of experience is still observable and is analysed in terms of the three characteristics.
Samatha jhāna is pure concentration, fixed awareness of a single object — a mental image, for example, such as a colored disk or a light. The mind is fixed on this object without wavering or moving elsewhere. Eventually the mind develops a very peaceful, tranquil, concentrated state and becomes absorbed in the object. Different levels of absorption are described in the texts, each level having specific qualities.
On the other hand, vipassanā jhāna allows the mind to move freely from object to object, staying focused on the characteristics of impermanence, suffering and absence of self that are common to all objects. Vipassanā jhāna also includes the mind which can be focused and fixed upon the bliss of nibbāna. Rather than the tranquility and absorption which are the goal of samatha jhāna practitioners, the most important results of vipassanā jhāna are insight and wisdom.
According to Buddhagosa's method, Jhana practice is separate from vipassana. Ones mind becomes absobed in fixed concentration on the object and the meditator must come out of jhana to practice vipassana.
That is what mentioned in the book I am referring to. As per the book, it is not possible to practice vipassana while still inside a jhana because the person is incapable of initiating thought or rationalizing. Vipassana is best to be practiced while being in the immediate neighborhood of jhana when the mindfulness is at its peak and the meditator is capable of initiating thought and practice vipassana.
Samatha jhāna is pure concentration, fixed awareness of a single object — a mental image, for example, such as a colored disk or a light. The mind is fixed on this object without wavering or moving elsewhere. Eventually the mind develops a very peaceful, tranquil, concentrated state and becomes absorbed in the object. Different levels of absorption are described in the texts, each level having specific qualities.
The mind goes through different levels of absorption from duality to one-pointedness and so on into neither perception nor non-perception. The book describes four immaterial attainments as
1) The mind-base of unlimited space
2) The mind-base of unlimited consciousness
3) The mind-base of nothingness
4) The mind-base of neither perception nor non-perception
P: …”focused and fixed upon the bliss of nibbāna.”
S9: If Nibbana has a define thing (AKA bliss) that can be focused upon, I see two problems right off: (1) Nibbana is not empty of ALL mental definitions, (AKA mental objects [as definition is a mental object,]and (2) the whole idea of focus says that Nibbana itself is a mind object. (AKA mind focusing on Nibbana).
This is of course not the case, and so we must rethink this way of seeing it.
Ultimate Truth must at least be reasonable, given what facts we have, if nothing more. Or we digress, once again, into relying upon fantasy and fiction, (AKA religion).
“The mind goes through different levels of absorption from duality to one-pointedness.”
S9: One-pointedness isn’t beyond duality. It is merely choosing sides, (I will look at this and not look at that), through the use of concentration and it accomplishes nothing towards that particular end, (transcending duality) because it cannot be maintained outside of the actual practice its self.
I am not saying that nothing is gained in this way, however, (far from it), because what is also noticed during this exercise is wholly useful. When the mind is so very occupied, or taken up, as this exercise provides, we also notice, become familiar with, Pure Awareness, or Awareness without the mind chatter.
When the mind is so very occupied, or taken up, as this exercise provides, we also notice, become familiar with, Pure Awareness, or Awareness without the mind chatter.
S9
You mean the inner chatter? We abandon it long before we even get into deep meditation. I don't know what you mean by "mind is so very occupied" but attentive stillness of the mind is the best way to describe deep meditative experience as far as I understand
Pure Awareness, or Awareness without the mind chatter
Would this be the silent witness?
When you realize that that's the way the world is, you'll feel that it's a wearisome place. When you see that there's nothing stable or substantial you can rely on, you'll feel wearied and disenchanted. Being disenchanted doesn't mean you're averse though. The mind is clear. It sees that there's nothing to be done to remedy this state of affairs, it's just the way the world is. Knowing in this way, you can let go of attachment, let go with a mind that is neither happy nor sad, but at peace with sankharas through seeing with wisdom their changing nature.
The Silent Witness is the very last vestal of the mind, itself, our highest, most reflective mind. Pure Awareness has no object to witness outside of its Self. Some philosophers call this "Being," as it is only witnessed from within.
There are two ways of seeing this Silent Witness, however, from the outside and from within. When you identify with the witness and let everything else go, although it isn’t the ultimate, you are certainly on your way. : ^ ) Witness is dualistic (because it has an object outside of its self) and is therefore mental.
When you finally step out of the witness through dis-identification, I believe that is the final step, or Liberation (free at last from the mind self).
If you are still disenchanted with the world, it is because you are still identifying with it to some extent, and it has let you down in some way.
Remember, if you will, that a clear mind is still a mind.
And:
I defy you to keep it clear of thoughts while living in the mind. It is impossible, my friend.
Our best and only hope is dis-identification with this limiting mind, and all of her thoughts.
That is what mentioned in the book I am referring to. As per the book, it is not possible to practice vipassana while still inside a jhana because the person is incapable of initiating thought or rationalizing. Vipassana is best to be practiced while being in the immediate neighborhood of jhana when the mindfulness is at its peak and the meditator is capable of initiating thought and practice vipassana.
The mind goes through different levels of absorption from duality to one-pointedness and so on into neither perception nor non-perception. The book describes four immaterial attainments as
1) The mind-base of unlimited space
2) The mind-base of unlimited consciousness
3) The mind-base of nothingness
4) The mind-base of neither perception nor non-perception
This is very close to my limited understanding. "Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond: A Meditator's Handbook" is on my to do list.
Note that the the four immaterial attainments are sometimes called formless absorptions {arupa jhana}. So those are the same as the 5th - 8th jhanas.
Vipassana, as I use the term, refers to both spiritual introspection and its fruit; which is direct insight. This direct insight can be waking up from wrong views; which is called nibbana / nirvana, the unbinding or a bit more more literally ex-binding. It is unbinding from attachment to asubha, dukkha, anicca, and the annatta. Spiritual insight can also be waking up to the deathless -- the unborn, non-arisen, uncreated, and uncompounded. This 'waking up to' is called purification.
As I see it; the jhanas and sammapatis; the fine material absorptions and the immaterial attainments, are one-pointed Samadhi / Concentration. Therefore, one is seeing the trees; not the forest. Collectively, the 8 or 9 jhanas {counting cessation} are what Buddhaghosa called Samatha. Shama + tha; which means to still or clam the mind. It is moving the mind away from random monkey chatter, afflicted mental states, and auto-pilot.
To do complete vipassana; I think we move from Samatha-samadhi or calming concentration; to Sati / Smrti-samadhi or mindfulness concentration. This is a different sort of concentration. It has no fixed point; but sees all of the trees and the forest at once. An old Dharma Friend calls this 'smrti samadhi' a "Spacious Awareness."
Another strange quality that distinguishes jhana from all other experience is that within jhana, all the five senses are totally shut down. One cannot see, hear, smell, taste, or feel touch. One cannot hear a crow cawing or a person coughing. Even if there were a thunderclap nearby, it wouldn’t be heard in a jhana. If someone tapped you on the shoulder, or picked you up and let you down, in jhana you cannot know this. The mind in jhãna is so completely cut off from these five senses that they cannot break in.’
The second quote is from Dazzle's link, an excerpt from the book.
I think he means levels beyond the fist jhana, I think there is discrsive thought in the first jhana,
I had an NDE; flat lined in an ambulance in 2003. I came to {still in the ambulance} before they got the paddles ready. As they wheeled me in into the ER, everyone turned to look. Even other patients sat up on their beds to look. I was emanating a glowing, blissful light. My eyes were rimmed with tears of pure joy.
The "place" I had gone was pure bliss and almost a pure white light; it had a bluish tint. When I see a really blue sky, it takes me back there.
Another thing, after I returned, my atrial fibrillation was completely gone. I had had that for several years. The Docs wrote it off to faulty EKG readings and hallucinations induced by the mix of anti-verts, ergatomines, and nitro I had been given.
BTW, due to a bad reaction to the mix of meds; I had great difficulty walking for quite a while; but I was incredibly happy. The joy of the moment was so wondrous; my hobbled condition seemed trivial.
Please don't stop at the five chapters. The later chapters are a lot more useful because they really dig into detail. The first five chapters are more or less a summary which don't have much information compared to the later chapters. Nowhere else have I found such a comprehensive, detailed and trustworthy source of real experience before.
I think I answered my own question posed above #51. I, and a couple sources; had confused two different concepts. It appears that there are two kinds of concentration. One of these is Appana Samadhi or Fixed Concentration. The focus is on object at t time. The other is Kanikha Samadhi or moment-to-moment concentration. This could also be called mindful concentration. Here, the mind moves supply and pliantly from object to object; without attachment. One source I read mistook Kanikha Samadhi for the scattered momentary concentration of untrained minds.
Then, there are three levels. Parikamma Samadhi, preparation or preliminary concentration, is first. Here, iirc, one selects an object and focuses on a sign or symbol for that object. Also, the 5 hindrances are not yet overcome. Next, there is Upachara Samadhi, neighborhood or access concentration. Here, the 5 hindrances are subdued for the time being. The external sign apparently becomes a fine material counter-sign; a bright mental image. Finally, there is Appana or Fixed Concentration. At this level, the five factors of absorption displace the five hindrances.
I suspect there could also be two, similar, prelude levels for Kanikha Samadhi before Knowledge & Vision of Reality As-it-is; Yathabhuta-nana-dassana / yathabhuta-jnana-darshana 如實知見 {rushi zhijian / jojitsu chiken} is attained.
I apologize for any errors and reserve the right to contradict myself in the future. I yield the rest of my timelessness to S9. Also, I am feeling much better.
Comments
In short, jhanas as I understand are peakened states of mindfulness where the "doer" portion of the mind is completely absent. You are not in control anymore. You cannot initiate any thoughts or anything for that matter and it is said that these jhana experiences greatly reduce a person's ego and the notion of "selfhood" begins to disappear in jhanas.
Only the"knower" is present in the first jhanas but this "knower" also gradually fades into nothingness as jhana states increase thus the fourth jhana which is "neither perception nor non-perception". As you gradually go up one jhana after the other, the mind eventually stops. When it arises again the individual has gained the attainment of nibbana
Jhanas are states of letting go. You let go to the end. All four jhanas are superbly described in the book by ajhan brahm
In Samyutta Nikaya and Majjhima Nikaya there seems to be a mention of "Unestablished conciousness"
Are you familiar with this?
I found this interesting because it comes close to describing my feeling in contemplation.
Quoted from a posting:
This is termed viññanam anidassanam — consciousness without a surface, or consciousness without feature. MN 49 says specifically that this consciousness does not partake of the "allness of the all," the "all" being conterminous with the five aggregates. The standard definition of the aggregate of consciousness states that this aggregate includes all consciousness, "past, present, or future... near or far." However, because viññanam anidassanam stands outside of space and time it would not be covered by these terms.
S9
S9: I have often wondered if it weren’t just the personification of the knower that fades and disappeared in these higher states.
It seems reasonable to me that if there were no knower to know (No knowing going on) in these states, who would report back to your conscious mind what actually took place there? In other words, who would remember?
These higher states would be closer to what we now know of deep sleep, dark and without any information at/all. We would only know something happened by checking the clock and seeing that time had passed.
S9
The few excerpts I have read from this book sound very good. From the little I have read, I would also recommend it.
All right meditation reduces ego. Ego can be greatly reduced well before jhana. In jhana, thought is basically absent so ego is naturally absent. But it is important not to identify "ego" with "thought". Real enlightenment is seeing clearly thought is not ego rather than seeing thought is ego. Many regard thought as ego.
The fourth jhana is not neither perception nor non-perception. The jhana of neither perception nor non-perception is the eighth jhana. The stopping of the mind is not the attainment of nibbana. The jhanas have no relationship to Nibbana whatsover. Their selflessness provides a taste of Nibbana but is not Nibbana. Nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. When we say Nibbana is the mind stopping, we fall into the error of the Tibetans who ascribe the state of nothingness and the state of non-thinking is Nibbana. The Buddha spent 45 years in Nibbana. He spent much of that 45 years thinking, speaking and describing things.
All right meditation comes from letting go. Right concentration is the mind with a sole object, namely, non-attachment towards the five aggregates.
In brief, either yourself or Ajahn Brahm is over-emphasising the importance of the jhanas. Meditation is letting go. It is not jhana. Jhanas are not states of letting go per se. They are merely signs of a certain level of mental purification. When the mental formations within the body have been purified, the mind enters jhana so the mind & brain can also be purified.
Ajahn Brahm is correct in emphasing jhanas are fruits of letting go. In other words, jhanas are not fruits of 'suppression' as is often taught in Theravada Buddhism.
Jhana & letting go occur via 'opening & freeing' the mind rather than via 'suppression'.
Kind regards
Viññanam anidassanam is a term found in the suttas as merely one description about liberated consciousness.
In other words, baby or egg viññanam anidassanam is required to lead to adult or chicken viññanam anidassanam.
If one has not passed through the jhanas, their viññanam anidassanam is merely baby or egg viññanam anidassanam. One has not cultivated it and turned the yeast viññanam anidassanam into bread.
It is stream entry viññanam anidassanam rather than arahant viññanam anidassanam.
In other words, the viññanam anidassanam you think you have attained is not the Buddha's viññanam anidassanam.
It is just spacing out a little; beginners level.
:buck:
Please note, the "knowing" is not refered to with a capital "K", as in "Knowing", "Presense", "Brahma", "The Self" or "God".
Your question is not fitting. In Buddhism, as opposed the theistic religions, the question is always "what" and never "who".
These states have nothing whatsover to deep sleep. In fact, the mind will have an intuitive sense of time and how long it has dwelt in such a state.
You probably mean Digha Nikaya rather than Samyutta Nikaya, specifically DN 11 Kevatta Sutta.
:smilec:
Phagguna Sutta
<DT> </DT>
Well, first of all, in the first jhana, both discursive thought, in the form of directed thought; and aroused interest are present in the first jhana. These vanish as one enters the second.
Secondly, "neither perception nor non-perception" is the Fourth Samaapatti; not the 4th jhana. The 4th Jhana is equanimity {uppeka}.
Now, on not being in control; I am not so sure about that. I think it is a different kind of control. The reason I suggest this is because samma vayama -- the proper exertion, comes into play. That. I think, is a prerequisite for both Samatha {samadhi. dhyana, samaapatti, nirodha} and for Mindfulness. Right exertion includes restraint, abandonment. cultivation, and, and maintenance. So there must be some kind of control?
On attaining nibbana / nirvana, That might be after re-entry from Nirodha-samapatti; but I am not too sure about that. There are four stages od awakening; Stream Entry, Once Returning, Non-Returning, and Arahant. The Arahant, iirc, has achieved unbinding and purification; and can see things are they are, Unbinding {nirvana} and Purity {Visuddha} might be two words for the same same thing. Nirvana - waking up from samsara; Visuddha = waking up to the deathless state.
In Samatha, after attaining Fixed Concentration; there are 9 levels. There are four form absorptions {rupa jhana} in the fine material heavens, four formless attainments {samaapatti} in the immaterial heavens, and finally the 9th level of cessation {nirodha}.
It seems pretty clear that one can attain once returning and maybe non-returning via the jhanas and samaapattis. I am not sure about arahant.
If they are the fruits of 'letting go', do you mean letting go of 'self' or letting go of the idea that self exists?
I am more familiar with Tiantai theories of Consciousness. I am only beginning to look at the Theravadin model; so that does not ring any bells right now.
The fellow who wrote this Phagguna Sutta would have me see/believe that there is a jhana going on without any “who/self” to feel/crave/remember/whatever what was taking place.
But that just begs the question, does it not, “Why isn’t a Jhana a mind state, like any other mind state, and victim to all that implies?
Also, I have to question whether you are just merely thinly disguising this knower by turning him/it into a verb, or a process, instead of leaving him a personified knower, or a noun. Obviously, knowing is going on, is it not?
S9
The pure being is neither a process nor a fixed self. That said, I think there is an element of conditioned self in jhana. The fine material and formless meditative heavens are still part of samsara. They are not Awakening, IMO.
My take is still that developing the jhanas is not a prerequisite to Awakening. I see Vipassana / Insight as the way to awakening. The Four Frameworks of Mindfulness, IMO, is the path that leads more directly to Insight. I see the arising of Jhanas as useful skills that can be applied to Mindfulness. I also think there are ways, other than the Four Frameworks of Mindfulness, that can lead one to direct insight. I would point to the Paccekabuddhas. How did they awaken?
Why not read the entire book? Trust me you won’t regret it
Yes all meditation reduces ego. What I meant was that when a person’s doer portion of the mind disappears and they are not in control of the things that happen in jhana stages that is said to reduce a person’s idea of a “selfhood” to a greater degree. The thought that “there is me and I am in control of myself” begin to get contradicted.
Yeah maybe.
Nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. There is no argument on that. What I thought was when the mind attends to the state of nothingness a person’s perceptions of greed, hatred & delusion disappears. If fact all perceptions disappear. Obviously they start to disappear in higher jhana levels as well as during deep meditation as well as when a person practices sathipattana. But there is a point where the person reaches and when he returns from that he has demolished all defilements and attained nibbana.
From what I have read so far I am under the impression that you cannot fully understand “non-self”, “anicca” or “dukkha” by mere reasoning. We all know things are impermanent. That doesn’t mean we are arahaths. These delusions go beyond the day to day observations to hard coded defilements which cannot be eradicated without reaching jhana states through meditation. Anyone who has attended nibbana can spend any number of years “thinking, speaking and describing things”. I am not saying nibbana is when the mind attends to nothingness and stays there without returning.
First you say jhanas are not really states of letting and then you say Ajahn Brahm is correct in emphasing jhanas are fruits of letting go. I don’t see any real information in the statement that “jhanas are merely signs of a certain level of mental purification”. That seriously lacks any valuable information to me. Maybe you have a point here but it is nothing much compared to the very comprehensive descriptions in the book so I am going to stick with the book.
I highly recommend reading it because from all the Buddhist texts on meditation I have read so far none really gave specific detailed information on what jhana actually is and how one experiences it. People can go on and on about this is this and that is that and we can go on and on debating over it. Wouldn’t it be better to read something a monk who has years of experience in the thai forest tradition got to say?
So please read this book from start to end. It made a big difference in my practice
I was taught that there are 4 jhanas, 4 samaapatis, and one more level.
Four Jhanas; Form but no contact, the fine material realm
1. 5 factors: Directed thought, rapt attention, joy, bliss, & one-pointed-ness. Brahma Heavens.
2. Directed thought and rapt attention dissipate; piti, sukha, and ekagatta remain. Heavens of Light.
3. Only bliss and ekagatta remain. Heavens of Purity.
4. Bliss and ekagatta fade into Uppeka {equanimity}. Highest Heavens. The Pure Abodes of Anagamins are the highest of these.
Four Attainments; Neither form nor contact. The immaterial realm.
1. Boundlessness of Empty Space.
2. Boundlessness of Consciousness
3. Boundlessness of Nothingness.
4. Neither Perception nor Non-preception.
The 9th is Cessation -- Nirodha Samapati
These are all still in the Heavenly Realms; so they are still samsaric.
This description of Vipassana practice is a way of developing vipassana knowledge through direct experience. The vipassana jhanas as taught by U Pandita contrast with the samatha jhanas as described by Buddhaghosa in his work the Visuddhimagga. According to Buddhagosa's method, Jhana practice is separate from vipassana. Ones mind becomes absobed in fixed concentration on the object and the meditator must come out of jhana to practice vipassana. However, jhana as taught by U Pandita allows for insight practice whilst in jhana. The meditators mind does not merge with the object but rather becomes ever more still whilst the flow of experience is still observable and is analysed in terms of the three characteristics.
Samatha jhāna is pure concentration, fixed awareness of a single object — a mental image, for example, such as a colored disk or a light. The mind is fixed on this object without wavering or moving elsewhere. Eventually the mind develops a very peaceful, tranquil, concentrated state and becomes absorbed in the object. Different levels of absorption are described in the texts, each level having specific qualities.
On the other hand, vipassanā jhāna allows the mind to move freely from object to object, staying focused on the characteristics of impermanence, suffering and absence of self that are common to all objects. Vipassanā jhāna also includes the mind which can be focused and fixed upon the bliss of nibbāna. Rather than the tranquility and absorption which are the goal of samatha jhāna practitioners, the most important results of vipassanā jhāna are insight and wisdom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassana_jhanas
That is what mentioned in the book I am referring to. As per the book, it is not possible to practice vipassana while still inside a jhana because the person is incapable of initiating thought or rationalizing. Vipassana is best to be practiced while being in the immediate neighborhood of jhana when the mindfulness is at its peak and the meditator is capable of initiating thought and practice vipassana.
The mind goes through different levels of absorption from duality to one-pointedness and so on into neither perception nor non-perception. The book describes four immaterial attainments as
1) The mind-base of unlimited space
2) The mind-base of unlimited consciousness
3) The mind-base of nothingness
4) The mind-base of neither perception nor non-perception
P: …”focused and fixed upon the bliss of nibbāna.”
S9: If Nibbana has a define thing (AKA bliss) that can be focused upon, I see two problems right off: (1) Nibbana is not empty of ALL mental definitions, (AKA mental objects [as definition is a mental object,]and (2) the whole idea of focus says that Nibbana itself is a mind object. (AKA mind focusing on Nibbana).
This is of course not the case, and so we must rethink this way of seeing it.
Ultimate Truth must at least be reasonable, given what facts we have, if nothing more. Or we digress, once again, into relying upon fantasy and fiction, (AKA religion).
S9
S9: One-pointedness isn’t beyond duality. It is merely choosing sides, (I will look at this and not look at that), through the use of concentration and it accomplishes nothing towards that particular end, (transcending duality) because it cannot be maintained outside of the actual practice its self.
I am not saying that nothing is gained in this way, however, (far from it), because what is also noticed during this exercise is wholly useful. When the mind is so very occupied, or taken up, as this exercise provides, we also notice, become familiar with, Pure Awareness, or Awareness without the mind chatter.
S9
You mean the inner chatter? We abandon it long before we even get into deep meditation. I don't know what you mean by "mind is so very occupied" but attentive stillness of the mind is the best way to describe deep meditative experience as far as I understand
Would this be the silent witness?
P: Would this be the silent witness?
S9: No, it would not be the silent witness.
The Silent Witness is the very last vestal of the mind, itself, our highest, most reflective mind. Pure Awareness has no object to witness outside of its Self. Some philosophers call this "Being," as it is only witnessed from within.
There are two ways of seeing this Silent Witness, however, from the outside and from within. When you identify with the witness and let everything else go, although it isn’t the ultimate, you are certainly on your way. : ^ ) Witness is dualistic (because it has an object outside of its self) and is therefore mental.
When you finally step out of the witness through dis-identification, I believe that is the final step, or Liberation (free at last from the mind self).
If you are still disenchanted with the world, it is because you are still identifying with it to some extent, and it has let you down in some way.
Remember, if you will, that a clear mind is still a mind.
And:
I defy you to keep it clear of thoughts while living in the mind. It is impossible, my friend.
Our best and only hope is dis-identification with this limiting mind, and all of her thoughts.
And:
To fly free.
Warm Regards,
S9
This is very close to my limited understanding. "Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond: A Meditator's Handbook" is on my to do list.
Note that the the four immaterial attainments are sometimes called formless absorptions {arupa jhana}. So those are the same as the 5th - 8th jhanas.
Vipassana, as I use the term, refers to both spiritual introspection and its fruit; which is direct insight. This direct insight can be waking up from wrong views; which is called nibbana / nirvana, the unbinding or a bit more more literally ex-binding. It is unbinding from attachment to asubha, dukkha, anicca, and the annatta. Spiritual insight can also be waking up to the deathless -- the unborn, non-arisen, uncreated, and uncompounded. This 'waking up to' is called purification.
As I see it; the jhanas and sammapatis; the fine material absorptions and the immaterial attainments, are one-pointed Samadhi / Concentration. Therefore, one is seeing the trees; not the forest. Collectively, the 8 or 9 jhanas {counting cessation} are what Buddhaghosa called Samatha. Shama + tha; which means to still or clam the mind. It is moving the mind away from random monkey chatter, afflicted mental states, and auto-pilot.
To do complete vipassana; I think we move from Samatha-samadhi or calming concentration; to Sati / Smrti-samadhi or mindfulness concentration. This is a different sort of concentration. It has no fixed point; but sees all of the trees and the forest at once. An old Dharma Friend calls this 'smrti samadhi' a "Spacious Awareness."
An extract from the Ajahn Brahm book "Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond" mentioned in this thread, can be read here:
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=15340
Kind regards,
Dazzle
The second quote is from Dazzle's link, an excerpt from the book.
I think he means levels beyond the fist jhana, I think there is discrsive thought in the first jhana,
I had an NDE; flat lined in an ambulance in 2003. I came to {still in the ambulance} before they got the paddles ready. As they wheeled me in into the ER, everyone turned to look. Even other patients sat up on their beds to look. I was emanating a glowing, blissful light. My eyes were rimmed with tears of pure joy.
The "place" I had gone was pure bliss and almost a pure white light; it had a bluish tint. When I see a really blue sky, it takes me back there.
Another thing, after I returned, my atrial fibrillation was completely gone. I had had that for several years. The Docs wrote it off to faulty EKG readings and hallucinations induced by the mix of anti-verts, ergatomines, and nitro I had been given.
BTW, due to a bad reaction to the mix of meds; I had great difficulty walking for quite a while; but I was incredibly happy. The joy of the moment was so wondrous; my hobbled condition seemed trivial.
Then, there are three levels. Parikamma Samadhi, preparation or preliminary concentration, is first. Here, iirc, one selects an object and focuses on a sign or symbol for that object. Also, the 5 hindrances are not yet overcome. Next, there is Upachara Samadhi, neighborhood or access concentration. Here, the 5 hindrances are subdued for the time being. The external sign apparently becomes a fine material counter-sign; a bright mental image. Finally, there is Appana or Fixed Concentration. At this level, the five factors of absorption displace the five hindrances.
I suspect there could also be two, similar, prelude levels for Kanikha Samadhi before Knowledge & Vision of Reality As-it-is; Yathabhuta-nana-dassana / yathabhuta-jnana-darshana 如實知見 {rushi zhijian / jojitsu chiken} is attained.
I apologize for any errors and reserve the right to contradict myself in the future. I yield the rest of my timelessness to S9. Also, I am feeling much better.
I'm glad you are feeling much better. Not feeling well is a drag.
Warm Regards,
S9