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The infighting over Shugden
Hey all, woot first post but now on to my question.
I went on a reading binge one night over the information I could find on the ban on Shugden worship and I was wondering, why exactly would the Dalai Lama ban any sort of worship? Would'nt it ultimately be counterproductive to sharing enlightenment and bringing people onto the path? Espechially when his own teachers and himself used the deity Shugden. I read as well that many people who refuse to stop are becomming kind of outcasts which doesn't seem very Buddha like espechially if I remember right the Buddha said his own path isn't the only one and to question his own words and always be searching.
I'm not a Buddhist I just really love what I have read about the Buddha and his words and was just curious on other peoples opinion on whats going on. Hopefully I chose the right board on this forum. Thanks in advance.
I went on a reading binge one night over the information I could find on the ban on Shugden worship and I was wondering, why exactly would the Dalai Lama ban any sort of worship? Would'nt it ultimately be counterproductive to sharing enlightenment and bringing people onto the path? Espechially when his own teachers and himself used the deity Shugden. I read as well that many people who refuse to stop are becomming kind of outcasts which doesn't seem very Buddha like espechially if I remember right the Buddha said his own path isn't the only one and to question his own words and always be searching.
I'm not a Buddhist I just really love what I have read about the Buddha and his words and was just curious on other peoples opinion on whats going on. Hopefully I chose the right board on this forum. Thanks in advance.
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Comments
The majority of Gelugpas, Sakyapas, Kagyupas and Nyingmapas, on the other hand, consider Shugden to be the latter, and in particular, a "king spirit" (rgyal po) — i.e., a mundane, pernicious spirit — which would mean that this being isn't a proper object of refuge.
The real danger, critics say, lies in the fact that the minds of these "king spirits" are generally dominated by anger, jealousy and revenge (often due to their being the ghosts of skilled yogis who've died under violent circumstances, with great anger), and that they can "cause madness, cattle diseases and generally bring dissension to sanghas."
Nevertheless, whatever the truth of the matter is, I'm content with taking the Buddha's own advice to "be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge" (DN 16).
Palzang
Hope that answers your question.
Welcome!
The perception of Dorje Shugden as a Dharma Protector for the Gelugpa, which was formerly part of HHDL's own practice, has two aspects - protecting practitioners and, controversially, punishing Gelugpas such as HHDL who take teachings from other sects. HHDL is not against Dharmapalas in general as they are central to Tantra, nor is he against spirits - he uses the Nechung oracle frequently. As he fears punishment and harm from Shugden, he has requested his followers to cease the practice.
The issue seems to have died down now, since the recent expulsion of monks worshiping Shugden from their homes in Gelugpa monasteries, but I believe the High Court in Delhi is currently investigating the plight of those monks and stories of the Tibetan Govt in Exile refusing them travel and ID documents. If true, this would breach India's religious freedom laws - and after all, this is all happening in India, not Tibet, and it is the law of India which rules, not that of the exiled Tibetans.
Personally, whilst I applaud the efforts of the Tibetans in preserving the Indian teachings, I find the subsequent inclusion of 'reincarnated' Tibetans as 'Buddhas', 'Dharmapalas' etc. has been a harmful sideshow which may obscure the positive work they have done.
Indian Buddhism, and Tantra, managed without either a Dalai Lama or a Dorje Shugden.
and it directly threatens HHDL himself and those who practice the other lineages.
HHDL is 100% correct in trying to stop this practice.
On the one hand we have an unproven spiritual harm to HHDL, on the other a very tangible harm to those Shugden monks expelled from their monastic homes.
It's like the boy who tells his parents: 'I know there isn't a ghost in the wardrobe, but that doesn't stop me being frightened of it!'. But in this case, it is the 'parent' behaving like the child.
Hi. At present I attend a NKT (New Kadampa Tradition) centre, and you are totally right in saying NKT is not part of Tibetan Buddhism.
This is from the Vajravarahi Kadampa Buddhist centre's website (http://www.meditateinlancs.org.uk):
In my limited experience, I have found the NKT a great starting block to the teachings of the buddha, as they are put in a Western context. Also most of the teachers are western themselves and as such can draw upon their own past experiences in this culture and can relate to your own problems (my teacher used to be into nucelar physics and astromony and married).
anyway, if your interested, the main site is:
http://kadampa.org/
and it directly threatens HHDL himself and those who practice the other lineages."
I'd like to thank Shenpen for giving me the opportunity to highlight the illogic of the Dalai Lama. Since he trained in the Gelugpa tradition under his Guru Trijang Rinpoche we can assume he has a good training in Buddhist logic, so I find his statement rather surprising.
People say that the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara. If he is Buddha, how could a 'Gyalpo spirit' harm him?
It's a benefit of Buddhist refuge that we are protected from harm by humans and non-humans. Even if the Dalai Lama is not Buddha but is simply a Buddhist, how could he ever be harmed if he has taken refuge?
The only reason the Dalai Lama gave this as a reason for the ban was to stir up bad feeling towards Shugden practitioners and cause his supporters to take strong action against them. It's either completely irresponsible (at the least) or a calculated evil action (at the worst) based on something that couldn't possibly be true.
Furthermore, since the Dalai Lama is encouraging the mixing of traditions, according to those who have a negative view, Dorje Shugden should punish him as he has supposedly punished others in the past for causing the degeneration of the Gelugpa tradition - so why is the Dalai Lama in such good health that he can travel around the world according to his busy schedule of teachings? If what is said in the 'Yellow Book' about Dorje Shugden is true, the Dalai Lama should be dead! His own good health proves that the statement that the practice of Dorje Shugden harms his health is a lie. :eek:
HHDL has given a whole range of reasons/excuses for acting against the practice, none of which make sense to me. As he takes his decisions based on what the Nechung spirit oracle advises him to do, it's not surprising the advice was to clobber a rival spirit oracle. Simplistic, but there it is.
I am sure that he is very aware of the history of his predecessors, some of whom have been less than 'perfect'. Nor has he ever pretended infallibility like Catholic Popes or LDS Prophets. There is nothing within the notion of incarnation of Chenrezig that precludes fear, although it seems to me that one of the roles of a Dalai Lama is to protect the office itself, for the benefit of Tibetans and of all beings. If he is convinced that a particular practice threatens this, how can we object? He is not the first Dalai Lama to condemn the practice,
The truth is that the present Dalai Lama's celebrity beyond his own people presents some people with a paradox. He appears to embody the sort of quasi-scientific, post-Enlightenment spirituality that fits Western demythologising cynicism. At the same time, he continues to preside over a series of beliefs and ritual practices which may appear superstitious and mediaeval. In this, I think he challenges us to reconsider our own rituals and superstitions, the ones we imagine are reasonable and rational.
As ever, he leads me to reconsider all that I take for granted by an example of humility which remains an ideal. I do, however, admit that I am biased.
Well, abandoning the practice himself is one thing, but one can seriously object, on humanitarian grounds alone, to his actions towards those who wish to continue.
There is no evidence of any kind to support his claims of harm to himself, and I do see the whole business as part of a medieval mindset which struggles to come to terms with living in a country where he has no official authority at all to meddle in the religious pursuits of others.
Ultimately, this is beyond our complete understanding, and certainly nothing we can directly control.
So let's try to not get heated and throw criticism and accusation around.
Many thanks.
This is precisely what I mean about the paradox of the Dalai Lama and our relationship with him. In post-Reformation, post-Enlightenment cultures such as ours, we have decided that that each of us has the right or, perhaps, the penalty to decide on the applicability of authority. Like Tom Paine, we cannot see the rationale behind unelected authority - and the Dalai Lama is, precisely, that. More so, even, than an hereditary monarch, Dalai Lama's are the very opposite of the democratic process.
At tyhe same time, Tenzin Gyatso manages to express this lifestyle with a grace that has largely charmed the West, although his Chinese neighbours seem less enchanted.
But, simply because we have 'canonised' the Great Fourteenth, it doesn't mean that he has suddenly become a W.A.S.P. and it seems to me a gross category error to criticise him for being himself.We may want to use Shugden practices ourselves - I would not know, they are unknown to me: for that very reason and because I do not share 'faith' in Shugden, I really don't see how I can say that HHDL is right or wrong.
Tibetan Buddhism is not a liberal, western democracy, it has its own rules, beliefs, norms and structures. Until half a century ago, it was virtually impenetrable and a source of myth and legend. Do we understand it now so well, we who were born and bred in a 100% different context, truly understand the theocratic concept? Would we accept and act on criticism coming in the opposite direction?
I concur with most of what you say. It is a huge endeavour to transplant the best parts of Tibetan Buddhism and graft them on to western cultures and expectations, whist abandoning the worse aspects of Tibetan social and political control mechanisms. It seems such a shame that what western society is shown is tarnished by power struggles, schisms and personal acrimony.
I attend teachings from Gelugpa Shugden supporters and Gelugpa supporters of the Dalai Lama - aside from that issue you would never know there was any difference, as both teach love, compassion and wisdom in exactly the same way.
I think Ken McLeod does a pretty good job of this.
I have always found inanimate objects never respond to threats of violence, but sometimes.......LOL
There are quite a few westerners who have explained and expanded on TB in making it more accessible to others in the west - Berzin and Thurman and even less well known people such as Lama Jampa Thaye (see his book, 'Rain of Clarity').
Amongst Tibetans, two of the clearest teachers are HHDL and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso IMHO. Now if we could see a healing of the open sore which separates the NKT and the FPMT, I think the resulting organisation would have enormous potential. (HHDL books: http://www.tibetancc.com/Info/Main.aspx?SideID=2&Page=HHBooks , Lamas Yeshe and Zopa : http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php., and Tharpa NKT publications: http://www.tharpa.com/uk/meditation-buddhist-books.html)
There may be a hugely emotive division over Shugden, but the similarities between these Gelugpas over the other 99.9% of the teachings is such a powerful resource for the spread of Buddhism that I hope they one day move beyond this squabble. They are old men and need to be thinking of their legacies.
Dorje shugden sends his regards.
A little clarification, if I may, which is not meant harshly:
If it is not cultural in nature, why is it a Tibetan spirit/deity alone, and why did Trijang and his student, HHDL, practice it?
Is there evidence of the harm done by DS - there must be some as the practice has been carrying on for many years.
You are inaccurate in saying Shugden may be harmful to those who practice other lineages. Most Gelugpas I've met simply regard DS as their Dharmapala. many are now forced to practice in secret whilst denouncing DS in public - they have a very real and tangible harm which they fear.
There are a few old texts where DS is described as being able to harm Gelugpas who attend teachings from other TB sects, but this lacks credibility as many have done so for a very long time and have suffered no problems from it. Indeed, it is sometimes the way that a Lama from one sect may recommend his disciple to receive teachings or empowerments from another sect. There is no text I know of which claim DS may harm 'those who practice other lineages' except for Gelugs, as I explained.
Knowing all the above, and having seen the suffering of the expelled monks, and the lack of suffering of HHDL at the hand of Shugden, I see no right action. Do you have any real evidence aside from the word of HHDL?
Thanks for any help.
David.
Lots on most Buddhist forums. Use 'search'.
I have filled in a few gaps in a reply on you thread about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
I am a shugden practitioner and have just found this discussion board today. I must say that this board is the 'friendliest' board to Shugden that I have found. It's fine to disagree but i don't get the feeling of nastiness i have encountered elsewhere so i wanted to thank you and give appreciation. I hope you will allow this issue to be discussed here because i feel that people are more open-minded towards discussion. It's true that this issue is discussed 'to death' in many forums already but the discussions become quite antagonistic and not in the Dharma vein, i feel.
The Shugden issue is tremendously intriguing.
Shugden was at first thought of as a demon by the 5th Dalai Lama. However, when he instructed several monasteries to destroy him with fire pujas and Hayagriva rituals, they all failed. The very next day, Dorje Shugden took trance and advised the DS practitioners that they should not criticise the Dalai Lama. To me, this shows how compassionate Shugden is. After that, the 5th Dalai Lama regretted demonising DS and built a temple to Shugden, as well as hand crafting a statue and writing prayers and praises to DS.
The 14th Dalai Lama also wrote a praise to DS, called Melody of the Unceasing Vajra.
Of course, this was before he 'changed his mind'.
I do believe that the Dalai Lama is a highly attained being. So logically, he would have known if Shugden was a spirit or not when he wrote the praise to him.
As for Nechung being to blame for the Dalai Lama's anti-Shugden policy, Nechung was the one who told Lord Dulzin to manifest as a Dharma Protector. And Nechung also was the one who reminded Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen (known as a reincarnation of Dulzin), of his previous commitment to become the Dharma Protector.
So it is not logical for Nechung now to be against Shugden.
There are so many illogical/wrong views... it would fill a book! But interesting.
The reason is because there are ALSO protectors who exhibit worldly aspect yet are enlightened.
"A protector who exhibits a worldly aspect yet is in fact indivisible from Manjusri Yamantaka is this very Dharma Protector, Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden.
Then there is the protector of Sukhavati who is Buddha Amitabha in nature, the great Dharma Protector Setrab Chen; Gyalpo Ku Nga, the Five Kings, who show a worldly aspect although they are, in fact, the Buddhas of the five families; The Protector Dorje Legpa, who exhibits worldly aspect although he is Vairochana in nature, and so on".
From: MUSIC DELIGHTING THE OCEAN OF PROTECTORS, written by Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, the tutor of His Holiness the Dalai Lama
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=52
I agree. This is the argument that doesn't really make sense, because we know that the Dalai Lama could not be harmed by such a spirit. Even if we assume Dalai Lama is not a high lama and just a simple monk, there are many high lamas who can do rituals to "remove" this spirit. They have been done but the "spirit" is still around. How is that possible?
We all know that Dalai Lama is not an irresponsible type or an evil type of person, so there might be another 'option' than what is stated here, that is
the Dalai Lama might be using fake "reasons" for a purpose.
This further shows that Dorje Shugden can be practised because it has no harmful effect towards the Dalai Lama, because Dalai Lama is still in a good health.
Also, for those who wanted to encourage schism among the different traditions, this is proof that Dorje Shugden is NOT a sectarian Buddha. For example, Dalai Lama who doesn't have any power to "kill" Dalai Lama up till today, His Holiness is not being harmed like what the "Yellow BOok" claims - that Gelugpa lamas who try to mix tradition or practice Nyingma tradition will be killed.
So in either way,
a) Dalai Lama is not being harmed by other entities through other people's DS practice - no effect on health from any sorts of harm (except defamation
b) Dalai Lama is not being harmed by Dorje Shugden himself - the Yellow Book theory doesn't apply
So where is the harm?
It's taught that the lifespan of teachers depends on the pure samaya of their students and when students don't keep their samaya, it shortens the lifespan of the teacher. Keeping samaya with the Dalai Lama means carrying out his clearly expressed wishes, including not worshipping the gyalpo spirit. If you don't have samaya with the Dalai Lama, that's another matter.
Even great bodhisattvas on the bhumis can be harmed through the power of wrathful mantra, and must sometimes perform practices to avert this harm. This is discussed in Karma Chagme's Mountain Dharma, as explained by Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche.
Practitoners who take refuge are free from harm by spirits, i have found this to be the case when i encounter spirits.
Whoah there... The majority of Kagyu and Nyingma practitioners that I know do not express any view about the Dogyal issue at all. Its the Gelugpa who express concern in my experience.
David,
There are many sites on this issue. My personal favourite is http://www.dorjeshugden.com because the information there is presented most objectively of all the other sites. There are links to other sites from there too.
Intellectually, the controversy is very interesting because many points in it defy logic and to me, Buddhism is all about logic.
I particularly like this article below from dorjeshugden.com and i would like to share it with everyone here.
Contemplate This
CONTEMPLATE THIS… Instead of turning away people who practise Dorje Shugden, we should be kind to them. Invite them, teach them, slowly and give them logic and wisdom without fear, then in time they give up the practice assuming it is ‘wrong’.
Wouldn’t that be a Buddhistic approach to all ‘wrong-doers’? Actually Dorje Shugden practitioners are not doing anything wrong. But hypothetically, if they are, wouldn’t it be a better and more true to the spirit of Buddhism to be accepting? So those reading this website who have views against Dorje Shugden should contemplate this.
Those who are practicing Dorje Shugden should forbear with extreme patience, fortitude and keep your commitments. The time will come as predicted that Dorje Shugden’s practice and its terrific quick benefits will be embraced by the world and it will be a practice of many beings.
Many beings who have said or thought negativities against this protector will regret and see the benefits and enlightened nature of Lord Dorje Shugden, King of the manifested deities who resides simultaneously in the Three Worlds…
After all, if H.H. the Dalai Lama can say that his guru Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is wrong in this practice, then he leaves the door wide open that His Holiness Himself can be wrong also. What would make His Holiness right and His Guru wrong?? If His guru can be wrong, then disciples of the Dalai Lama can say that the Dalai Lama is wrong also. If we choose that view, it becomes messy. So we have to think that outwardly His Holiness puts his ‘reputation’ on the line to speak out ‘against’ Dorje Shugden in His skillful means to not create fear in the hearts of sectarian people who use the holy lineages of Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug against each other. As the destruction of any lineage or deterioration would set the example for other lineages. They are somehow interdependent.
We at this website respect His Holiness the Dalai Lama from the depths of our hearts and at the same time follow our golden vajra commands of our lamas we met previous to His Holiness the Dalai Lama. The commitments of Dorje Shugden we have received from our root and lineage lamas prior to His Holiness must be upheld also. All those great lamas who are also the lineage lamas of His Holiness cannot be wrong. If they are, then the other practices, lineages, initiations, transmissions passed to His Holiness would be ‘stained’ by the practice of Dorje Shugden also?
So for example, His Holiness kindly confers the Kalacakra many times throughout the world. He has received this lineage from Kyabje Ling Rinpoche. Kyabje Ling Rinpoche’s root lama is Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche Jetsun Dechen Nyingpo recognized as the emanation of Heruka Cakrasamvara. Every great Gelugpa lama is directly or indirectly connected to this great being. Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche practised Dorje Shugden throughout his holy life. So if his practice is wrong, then he would be a wrong lineage lama to Kyabje Ling Rinpoche. If that is wrong, then His Holiness is passing practices that are so called ‘impure’ to many today. That is impossible. His Holiness is definitely pure as well as His lineage lamas, for example Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
Even His Holiness could not override any master of any school of Buddhism or any sect, otherwise His Holiness would put Himself in the position of being eventually overridden also. Who would want to do that? All the many lineage masters who practiced Gyelchen Dorje Shugden in their previous incarnations are back and studying/teaching again. Many have been recognized by the oracle of Dorje Shugden and His Holiness the Dalai Lama himself. So why are they back?? Shouldn’t they have taken unfortunate rebirths??
Below is a beautiful prayer to the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden as composed by H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama in the mid 70’s..His Holiness at that time and now is of the same mindstream, free of mistakes as He is the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara. Those of you who have tremendous obstacles, fearful situations, desperate predicaments, financial woes that hinder your dharma growth and practice should engage in the tremendously quick and efficacious practice of Dorje Shugden.
It must be combined with pure Guru devotion, consistent practice of one’s yidam, holding one’s vows and words of honor, no harm should be done to others, respect of all lineages and lineage lamas, teachers and masters. Forgive and forbear those who show enmity and disdain. For that would please the holy mind of the Dharmaphala King of the Three Lokas, Gyelchen Dorje Shugden. Even if one has no confirmed practice, lama or vows, still with good motivation, if one propitiates this holy protector, one can see the benefits. Like anything with time, the help, and mystical intervention of this supreme being will be felt more and more obvious. Especially if one is on the path of the cultivation of Lam Rim realizations. Put your energies not into worry, despair, depression, unnecessary wastage of time, but channel it into the modernly adapted yet supreme practice of this protector.
MELODY OF THE UNCEASING VAJRA
A Propitiation of Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden,
Protector of Conqueror Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings
By the Supreme Victor, the Great 14th Dalai Lama
HUM
Glory of the wisdom, compassion and power of infinite Buddhas
Miraculously powerful protector of Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings
Arisen as a lord of all wrathful worldly hosts
Come from the abodes of Tushita, Kechara, and so forth!
Prostrating with devotion of body, speech, and mind
I confess all mistakes and faults in which
Out of delusion, I have contradicted your holy mind:
Accept with forbearance and show your smiling face!
Arising from the sport of non-dual bliss and void
Are offerings and torma of flesh and blood heaped like a mountain
First portions of milk, yogurt, beer and tea swirling like the ocean
Auspicious signs and substances and various animals
Peaceful and wrathful ornaments, enemy-destroying weapons and armor
Amassed samaya substances, outer, inner, and secret, without exception!
Having fulfilled your heart commitment and purified degeneration
By making these actually arranged and visualized offerings
Increase Lozang the Victorious One’s Teachings
And the life span and activities of the Teachings’ upholders!
Further the happiness of beings in the Gaden [Podrang] dominion!
Especially pacify all harm to us, the yogis and entourages
That arises because of previous karma and immediate conditions
And spontaneously accomplish, just as we wish
All good things, both spiritual and temporal!
Grind to dust without remainder
Enemy hordes that think and act perversely
Towards the teachings and lay and ordained people
With potent, accurate, powerful great vajra fire!
Especially, cause the saffron-clad community of Dungkar Monastery
Brightly beautiful in bonds of pure morality
To soar the path of immortal liberation
On unified wings of Sutra and Tantra!
In brief, we enthrone you, O Deity, as the supreme
Collected nature of all Gurus and Protective Deities!
From densely gathered clouds of the four activities
Pour down a cool rain of the two siddhis!
This, A Propitiation of Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, Protector of Conqueror Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings, entitled Melody of the Unceasing Vajra ’s composition was urged, not only by the vajra prophecy of the great emanated Dharmapala himself, but also on behalf of the general community by the master of the Dratsang and all of its officers, with offerings. Accordingly, the one called Holder Of The White Lotus, Bearer of the Buddhadharma, Ngawang Losang Tenzin Gyatso Sisum Wangyur Tsungpa Mepa De composed it at Dungkar Monastery with spontaneous auspiciousness.
All benefit and bliss! Siddhi Rastu
Domo Geshe Rinpoche, at whose Dunkar Monastery His Holiness composed these inspiring verses, was one of the greatest Mahasiddhas in Tibetan history. A greater example of saintliness and, mind you, non-sectarian compassion would be hard to find. Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang said of him, “We are exactly the same”, and Domo Geshe put his Monasteries in Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche’s care before he passed on. The 13 th Dalai Lama praised him as Je Tsongkhapa incarnate. Both the 13 th and the 14 th Dalai Lama praised Dungkar Monastery’s oracle, through which they obtained very valuable advice in difficult times.
This prayer shows beyond the shadow of a doubt the enlightened origin and the “holy mind” of the King Protector as seen by His Holiness. No “ghost” can come from Tushita and Kechara, Maitreya and Vajrayogini’s pureland. No “ghost” can cause you to “soar the path of immortal liberation on unified wings of Sutra and Tantra”!
Seeing this, we think it is safe to conclude what this conflict is not about. And who knows, maybe it is not a conflict at all, except in our conflict-hungry minds that can’t stand the notion of interdependence and cause and effect?
I'm very new to this site and am glad to read this. We will have differences in views, (else why a forum) and I do welcome that as it makes me think.
From what I've read, fire pujas have been done to get rid of DS. DS is still around.
Dear Jinzang
You've brought up a key point regarding guru-student samaya which affects the lifespan of the teacher. I suppose many find difficulties in carrying out DL's wishes if they have several gurus of which one of them is DL.
I look forward to hearing your view.
I feel the same. It can be tiring! However, somehow I still find myself gravitating towards forum threads with Dorje Shugden headings. haha..
I guess I do like to read other peoples' views
Doesn't it show the mind of DS, a being who has so much thrown at yet he advise his practitioners to not react negatively.
Here's some information which I thought you guys might be interested to look at.
"Also in his autobiography is a reference to Trode Khangsar, where he gave Amitayus and Hayagriva long life initiation."
http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/among-shugden-texts-1654.html
Information on Trode Khangsar
Nice photos and write up -->
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/trodekhangsar.htm
A video --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehr8ePFyWoY
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Dear Jeffrey,
Thank you for sharing your view. For many Tibetans, the credibility of the Dalai Lama comes partly from the belief that he’s an emanation of a Avalokiteshvara Buddha (you don’t have to believe this
Although you personally don’t believe in spirits, Dharma protectors and their practices are very crucial in Tibetan Buddhism. They dispel practitioners' inner and outer hindrances, especially for those who study the path of Tantra.
There are a few types of Dharma protectors in Tibetan Buddhism. There are mundane (worldly) protectors like Nechung (the official /state protector of Tibet), and also the supra-mundane (enlightened manifestation of enlightened beings).
The mundane protectors include Nechung (the state/chief Dharma protector of Tibet), Ode Gung Gyel, and Yarlha Shampo, who were bound under oath by many previous holy beings and committed themselves to protecting the Teachings.
The supra‐mundane protectors (who are NOT SPIRITS!)would include Six Armed Swift Wisdom Mahakala who is of a nature of Arya Avalokiteswara; the five Yab‐Yum Four Faced Mahakalas who are of a nature of Shri Chakrasamvara and the four Mothers; Palden Mag Zor Ma, who is the goddess Saraswati revealing a wrathful aspect, and so forth.
However, according to Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche (tutor and spiritual guide of the 14th Dalai Lama for 40 years), in the text MUSIC DELIGHTING THE OCEAN OF PROTECTORS,
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“a protector who exhibits a worldly aspect yet is in fact indivisible from Manjusri Yamantaka is this very Dharma Protector, Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden. Then there is the protector of Sukhavati who is Buddha Amitabha in nature, the great Dharma Protector Setrab Chen; Gyalpo Ku Nga, the Five Kings, who show a worldly aspect although they are, in fact, the Buddhas of the five families; The Protector Dorje Legpa, who exhibits worldly aspect although he is Vairochana in nature, and so on.
From: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=52
Trijang Rinpoche was an adherent of the practice of the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden and widely promoted it. His current incarnation, Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, has been officially allowed by the Dalai Lama himself to practice Shugden. You can find the video on Youtube. <O:p
It's not usually a problem, as the wishes of different teachers don't conflict that often. If they do, you should follow the wishes of whoever you consider your main teacher.
Yes it has been debated to death but it's still is great for everyone to share and exchange views without being aggressively attacked.
I personally feel that Dorje Shugden is not a "spirit"! Why I say that is... well if he was a spirit that is full of jealousy and revenge then why has he not ever once advice via any oracles in trance to harm or go against the the Dalai Lama. Actually DS advices the opposite and to not lose faith in Dalai lama and to always respect HHDL. This was told to me by a monk friend who frequently gets the opportunity to have audience with the oracle. So why didn't DS advice the opposite instead of so kindly? So this itself tells me a lot about the protector's nature.
I also had the great opportunity once to actually have audience with an oracle of DS, and to my surprise Dorje hugden is an amazingly kind and gentle protector!
Also if your google or research on Dorje Shugden's background history and line of incarnations, you'll be amazed to discover that his line of incarnations goes all the way back to the Mahasiddha Biwawa/Biharpa. He was also one of Je Rinpoche close disciple who actually built Gaden Monastery!
A great place to start is http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=32 or http://shugden.tripod.com/history.html
Hi, thanks for that link (and all the links others have provided too), I really appreciate the info, as I'm learning a lot.
David.
he Shugden Affair: Origins of a Controversy (Part I)
The Shugden Affair: Origins of a Controversy (Part II)
A film about the controversy:
http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/documentary-film
A list of speeches by his holiness in regard to the controversy:
http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden
A listing of violent events with pictures (warning-graphic images):
http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/violent-events
Coincidentally, these are the sources that I've visited to learn about this event when I first heard about this issue.
I think there are quite informative. But again one-sided, which "side" are we talking about? Is there even a side in the first place?
Although I am not a practitioner of Vajrayana, I continue to gain tremendous inspiration and benefit from individuals within these traditions, especially Lama Sura Das and Pema Chodron (yes, they are pop culture writers, but I like them anyway).
So here is what has always puzzled me: If the Dalai Lama says that it isn't a good idea to adopt this deity practice, then why do it? I mean, surely it isn't necessary. Secondly, if you decide to go ahead and practice it despite the controversy, then why act all hurt and surprised when people question it? Just continue to practice it because you believe in it.
It all reminds me of so many counter-culture movements...many people do it for the attention (even the negative attention) just as much as the content itself. You can tell this by the way they act.
If there are some folks who are getting something positive from NKT, then that's great, but it ain't my cup of tea, and if HHDL says it isn't a good idea, then perhaps I can instead turn my attention on that pile of 1,000+ other books, suttas, etc. I have been chipping away on. I am still learning so much about the dhamma after 20 years of practice...things that I know are not ruffling feathers of the DL. I just do not understand why this has been made into such a big deal? The DL is entitled to have a perspective on such matters just like you, me, or anyone else does. I can tell you that if he walked up to me and explained that something I was doing in my practice was going to be an impediment to me, unless his advice conflicted directly with the suttas (which he would never do LOL), then I would just change what I was doing and be done with it. After all, attachment is what we are letting go of in the first place, including our attachments to ways of practice! :-)