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One strange thought always occurs to me whenever I encounter the well-trodden topic of NKT and Shugden practice.
Although I am not a practitioner of Vajrayana, I continue to gain tremendous inspiration and benefit from individuals within these traditions, especially Lama Sura Das and Pema Chodron (yes, they are pop culture writers, but I like them anyway).
So here is what has always puzzled me: If the Dalai Lama says that it isn't a good idea to adopt this deity practice, then why do it? I mean, surely it isn't necessary. Secondly, if you decide to go ahead and practice it despite the controversy, then why act all hurt and surprised when people question it? Just continue to practice it because you believe in it.
It all reminds me of so many counter-culture movements...many people do it for the attention (even the negative attention) just as much as the content itself. You can tell this by the way they act.
If there are some folks who are getting something positive from NKT, then that's great, but it ain't my cup of tea, and if HHDL says it isn't a good idea, then perhaps I can instead turn my attention on that pile of 1,000+ other books, suttas, etc. I have been chipping away on. I am still learning so much about the dhamma after 20 years of practice...things that I know are not ruffling feathers of the DL. I just do not understand why this has been made into such a big deal? The DL is entitled to have a perspective on such matters just like you, me, or anyone else does. I can tell you that if he walked up to me and explained that something I was doing in my practice was going to be an impediment to me, unless his advice conflicted directly with the suttas (which he would never do LOL), then I would just change what I was doing and be done with it. After all, attachment is what we are letting go of in the first place, including our attachments to ways of practice! :-)
Its a traditional practise passed on by the root and lineage guru's friend, of course the DL is entitled to his opinion he used to practise dorje shugden and even wrote a praise to him alot of people who practise have a commitment to practise and what the DL has done is effectivley banned practise and forced non private public referendum through the monastry halls
People should have freedom of choice what to practise especially in the context of it being a traditional practise, i loose all confidence in someone who cant abide by the law of the indian government when operating on their soil.
Since when did guru yoga have anything to do with local laws?
Palzang
The TGIE has decreed which deites are 'legal' in its persecution of Shugden practitioners, so further mixing 'local' politics and religion.
They can therefore have no complaint when this is then tested against the laws of India - the legitimate government of the Tibetans living there.
You are right in that guru yoga is totally unconnected with politicians, and that includes HHDL as the political leader of a group which has no legal governmental status, and needs to stop behaving as if it has.
So here is what has always puzzled me: If the Dalai Lama says that it isn't a good idea to adopt this deity practice, then why do it?
Hmm if the Dalai Lama told you it was a good idea to jump off a bridge, then--.....
If there are some folks who are getting something positive from NKT, then that's great, but it ain't my cup of tea, and if HHDL says it isn't a good idea, then perhaps I can instead turn my attention on that pile of 1,000+ other books, suttas, etc.
If they get something positive from it, then what does it matter if it's your cup of tea or not?
It's not so much about any of this, anyway. It's a human rights issue in the end. People should be allowed to practice their faith so long as it harms no one else, and without fearing for their own safety, no?
If they get something positive from it, then what does it matter if it's your cup of tea or not?
It's not so much about any of this, anyway. It's a human rights issue in the end. People should be allowed to practice their faith so long as it harms no one else, and without fearing for their own safety, no?
Naturally you are right, and that is not what I am suggesting here. I said if people are getting something positive out of it despite it not being an interest of mine, that is perfectly fine, they just shouldn't be shocked and outraged when their practice is challenged.
No, silly...I said unless it was in opposition to basic moral teachings (not to mention common sense).
Naturally you are right, and that is not what I am suggesting here. I said if people are getting something positive out of it despite it not being an interest of mine, that is perfectly fine, they just shouldn't be shocked and outraged when their practice is challenged.
Even more important than those reasons (not to obey HHDL) is the issue of samaya. In order to abandon the practice many would have to break samaya with their root guru - just about the worst thing anyone in the Vajrayana can do. This is where the NKT parted company with HHDL and isnisted on their right to retain the lineage practices given to GKG by Trijang Rinpoche.
It is OK if HHDL wants to break his own samaya with Trijang Rinpoche, but to instruct others to do so on pain of expulsion, creating homelessness and starvation, is unacceptable for anyone following moral discipline and guru yoga.
It is this which makes people shocked and outraged, not the utterly unsubstantiated claims that HHDL would be harmed if Gelugpas continued Shugden practice. Many have continued - HHDL seems fine while they are in exile from their monasteries, some of them for the second time.
This issue should lie down and die, but I think the reason it continues is that HHDL is still travelling the world wearing the persona of compassion and humility, which some find hypocritical, especially when still suffering from the suppression of their religious and human rights.
Personally, I am inclined to think that HHDL is probably very shocked that he could not act free from interference, and may now understand that he is a guest, not a ruler, in India. He does not have diplomatic immunity to harm other guests of the Indian Government with impunity. I hope he never seeks to do so again.
^^^
Yeshe, I thank you for your helpful and informative post. I am left wondering how this practice leads to starvation and homelessness because of HHDL's perspective against it? Monks in other religious traditions have always been dismissed for all kinds of theological/philosophical reasons. HHDL has never suggested that people pelt one another with rocks or refuse to feed hungry people.
Regardless whether people believe him to be right or wrong, HHDL is clearly acting from precedent within the Gelugpa tradition, as his statements against this practice are traced back to previous DLs since the fifth. The fact that he is a hypocrite going against his own root guru? That is reasonable criticism, but it doesn't change the fact that he IS the Dalai Lama. Hey...he is the guy that was chosen! Are they now questioning their own power to determine which children are incarnations of previous lamas?
^^^
Yeshe, I thank you for your helpful and informative post. I am left wondering how this practice leads to starvation and homelessness because of HHDL's perspective against it? Monks in other religious traditions have always been dismissed for all kinds of theological/philosophical reasons. HHDL has never suggested that people pelt one another with rocks or refuse to feed hungry people.
Regardless whether people believe him to be right or wrong, HHDL is clearly acting from precedent within the Gelugpa tradition, as his statements against this practice are traced back to previous DLs since the fifth. The fact that he is a hypocrite going against his own root guru? That is reasonable criticism, but it doesn't change the fact that he IS the Dalai Lama. Hey...he is the guy that was chosen! Are they now questioning their own power to determine which children are incarnations of previous lamas?
OK, I'll spell out the direct link between HHDL changing his mind and the homeless and starving state of the expelled monks:
Well, HHDL is on video on Youtube banning the practice, and monasteries did as they were told in expelling the monks who refused to agree to sign that they would abandon Shugden practice; there is the cause of expulsion. I spoke to an eye witness who visited the monasteries and brought back tales of rigged ballots, coercion etc. - so many were fearful of being expelled themselves.
Now bearing in mind cause and effect, what happens if an expelled monk is then denied his ID card and papers permitting him to buy food or obtain accommodation or travel? He is starving and homeless. And shops have denied access to Shugdne practitioners for fear of losing their income from the monastery itself.
There was actually a record (again on video I think) of the TGIE asking that the Shugden monks be treated as exiles, with no access to food etc. The Delhi High Court brought an end to this by demanding evidence that the TGIE was no longer denying these documents to the expelled monks. I haven't seen any new court papers to confirm that they have yet done so.
Knowing what it means to be expelled from your monastic home in Tibet and to be a starving refugee, how may it be justified to impose this once more on other Tibetan monks.
Thankfully, as time has passed, the monks are now largely OK and monasteries supporting the Shugden practice are stronger than ever.
This even includes the Ganden Tripa, the true head of the Gelugpas, who has retired - now he cannot be bullied, he has made a free choice to enter a monastery practising Dorje Shugden.
In fact, the persecution has strengthened the worldwide practice of Shugden IMHO, both amongst the Gelugpas who have been loyal to their root gurus, and in the NKT who are loyal to theirs, keeping the true lineage tradition alive and well.
For details, I suggest reading a copy of The Great Deception book produced by the Western Shugden Society, whose websites have links to the Youtube evidence.
Once again, thank you for giving me the opportunity to understand your perspective on this issue. I take it that you are involved with NKT or some format of Shugden practice? Or perhaps you are merely a sympathizer?
This monkey mind of mine swings through the Theravadan forest more than any other tradition, so it is far from my place to hold any firm views on this issue. I read what is going on with fascination, as it sounds to me like a lot of superstitious beliefs are being used as ploys on both sides of this issue, and such things lie outside of my immediate mode of practice.
For whatever it is worth, whenever I have received advice from friends practicing Vajrayana (on meditation, on mantras, on many practical matters of Buddhism), the advice is usually exceptional. I tend to take it very seriously, and do what I can to adopt it, work with it, and more often then not, find it very beneficial.
I think the ability to let go of firm dogma would be something we should expect from all dhamma practitioners, most notably HHDL, so my guess is that this issue is:
(1) something so crucial, something so grave in consequence, as to cause his holiness to take such a firm stance, or else
(2) he is simply validating the first noble truth through his behavior...namely that grasping leads to dukkha.
It sounds to me like you are suggesting the latter. If so, then the Dalai Lama has made an enormous mistake, one causing intense and unnecessary misery to a lot of people. Do I have your understanding captured accurately?
I enjoy these conversations. It is important that we are able to talk openly about different perspectives and beliefs without the personal abuse found earlier in this thread. I am open to having my mind changed and my understanding broadened. Isn't that one of the biggest reasons for having these forums? :- )
Once again, thank you for giving me the opportunity to understand your perspective on this issue. I take it that you are involved with NKT or some format of Shugden practice? Or perhaps you are merely a sympathizer?
This monkey mind of mine swings through the Theravadan forest more than any other tradition, so it is far from my place to hold any firm views on this issue. I read what is going on with fascination, as it sounds to me like a lot of superstitious beliefs are being used as ploys on both sides of this issue, and such things lie outside of my immediate mode of practice.
For whatever it is worth, whenever I have received advice from friends practicing Vajrayana (on meditation, on mantras, on many practical matters of Buddhism), the advice is usually exceptional. I tend to take it very seriously, and do what I can to adopt it, work with it, and more often then not, find it very beneficial.
I think the ability to let go of firm dogma would be something we should expect from all dhamma practitioners, most notably HHDL, so my guess is that this issue is:
(1) something so crucial, something so grave in consequence, as to cause his holiness to take such a firm stance, or else
(2) he is simply validating the first noble truth through his behavior...namely that grasping leads to dukkha.
It sounds to me like you are suggesting the latter. If so, then the Dalai Lama has made an enormous mistake, one causing intense and unnecessary misery to a lot of people. Do I have your understanding captured accurately?
I enjoy these conversations. It is important that we are able to talk openly about different perspectives and beliefs without the personal abuse found earlier in this thread. I am open to having my mind changed and my understanding broadened. Isn't that one of the biggest reasons for having these forums? :- )
Most Appreciatively...
I cannot possibly know the motivation of HHDL. This is crucial. He consults a spirit oracle, Nechung, so maybe a spirit told him what to do. He certainly believes the oracle to be always right.
All I can map is the creation of causes and consequences. In this case the other imponderable aspect is whether the short term suffering of the few will be of benfit to the many.
In other words, HHDL may consider that compassion is best expressed through this action. Others, including myself, allow for the fact that however lofty his status, he is just plain wrong and causing unnecessary suffering which benefits nobody.
He is on video, to which I posted a link, declaring past masters as wrong, incuding his own root guru. Within TB this is a hugely damaging assertion, especially to himself in terms of his vows.
If he simply chose to claim his root guru and other lineage masters were wrong and decided to change his own practice, there would be little problem aside from the breach of his samaya with them. However, when HHDL speaks and commands, others must follow. That is the system.
HHDL has stated many different justifications for the ban. IMHO none of them makes any sense.
More causes and consequences. Most of them very negative IMHO.
In the end, it sets Gelugpas against each other and may even cause a schism. I believe that HHDL may see this as a price worth paying in his quest to unify and control all Tibetan Buddhist schools.
Whoah there... The majority of Kagyu and Nyingma practitioners that I know do not express any view about the Dogyal issue at all. Its the Gelugpa who express concern in my experience.
You don't usually hear their opinions opinion because it's not a Kagyu or Nyingma practice. But when asked, they have supported the Dalai Lama's position on the issue. The Sixteenth Karmapa certainly opposed the practice.
The 5th Dalai Lama started the DS practice to turn his opposition in his favor, saying the former candidate for the Dalai Lama "office", his oppositor that mysteriously got murdered, became a dharma protector and took his side. It started as a political issue and remained so.
Some people felt the traditions should be practiced separately, so they could keep the power they already have ("things remain as they are") and used DS as an excuse, as previous Dalai Lamas did. Some people wanted to mix the practice, causing the power balance to shift ("things will change"), and used the ban of DS as an excuse.
When the power of non-gelug schools grew in exile, the pressure to ban the practice increased, so the Dalai Lama stopped practicing it and to make the separatists happy banned it.
The Dalai Lama more than ever started loosing his Gelug identity, and turning himself into the symbol of all schools of Buddhism. That way, he remains in power, his opposition gets satisfied.
The problem is some people really took the practice to heart, mixing politics and religion.
There is nothing in this issue of even a slight buddhist nature. It's politics using the language of religion, as in any theocratic state.
And then you get a bunch of western folks that like to pretend they are tibetan twisting their pants over this, saying it is an evil spirit and on the other side people saying it is a good spirit, and yet they have NO idea of the political implications of this problem or its origins, like it is all a matter of "The Dalai Lama said so".
Well, the Dalai Lama also had a shaman that - apparently - could 'turn' the bad weather. Do you guys believe in that too? Does it have anything AT ALL to do with Buddhism? No, folks, Bon is not buddhism, okay? Neither is Tibetan politics.
The 5th Dalai Lama started the DS practice to turn his opposition in his favor, saying the former candidate for the Dalai Lama "office", his oppositor that mysteriously got murdered, became a dharma protector and took his side. It started as a political issue and remained so.
Some people felt the traditions should be practiced separately, so they could keep the power they already have ("things remain as they are") and used DS as an excuse, as previous Dalai Lamas did. Some people wanted to mix the practice, causing the power balance to shift ("things will change"), and used the ban of DS as an excuse.
When the power of non-gelug schools grew in exile, the pressure to ban the practice increased, so the Dalai Lama stopped practicing it and to make the separatists happy banned it.
The Dalai Lama more than ever started loosing his Gelug identity, and turning himself into the symbol of all schools of Buddhism. That way, he remains in power, his opposition gets satisfied.
The problem is some people really took the practice to heart, mixing politics and religion.
There is nothing in this issue of even a slight buddhist nature. It's politics using the language of religion, as in any theocratic state.
And then you get a bunch of western folks that like to pretend they are tibetan twisting their pants over this, saying it is an evil spirit and on the other side people saying it is a good spirit, and yet they have NO idea of the political implications of this problem or its origins, like it is all a matter of "The Dalai Lama said so".
Well, the Dalai Lama also had a shaman that - apparently - could 'turn' the bad weather. Do you guys believe in that too? Does it have anything AT ALL to do with Buddhism? No, folks, Bon is not buddhism, okay? Neither is Tibetan politics.
I would challenge is that it is only Westerners getting their knickers in a knot - HHDL and the Gelugpa monks he expelled seem pretty upset all round. In the case of the NKT, they of course left HHDL's theocracy some years ago, and through the WSS have argued about the plight of the expelled monks, not for their own benefit from what I could see.
We also have the throwing out of the baby with the bathwater. As you say, HHDL uses a spirit oracle and shamans, but if he argues Shugden can harm him he actually recognises that he, Avalokiteshvara, can be harmed by a low grade demon. Twisted logic as well as twisted underwear on all sides.
Tantra is not Bon. Certainly Dharmapalas are a very important aspect of Tantra, and to command someone to abandon their lineage root guru's advice and empowerment with regard to the choice of Dharmapala is as bad as it gets.
I regard the whole action against Shugden as a political theocratic move, which as you say has nothing to do with Buddhism. It still has everything to do with religious freedom, enshrined in the law of India, a country which has shown real compassion in rehoming monks expelled from monasteries in Tibet - rather than, like the TGIE, repeating the repression.
I see the protests against the expulsion of the Shugden monks as being as valid as the protests against the expulsion of the monks from Tibet, albeit that the act was less brutal, albeit that it was forceful and destructive, smashing statues etc. and throwing monks onto the street without homes, food etc.
Oh your assertion about 'a bunch of western folks that like to pretend they are tibetan' is hilarious. By your logic that makes all western Buddhist a bunch of folk pretending to be Chinese, Japanese, Thai or even Indian, especially if they dress up as monks and nuns! Mocking western Sangha is easy, and not very wholesome.
You don't usually hear their opinions opinion because it's not a Kagyu or Nyingma practice. But when asked, they have supported the Dalai Lama's position on the issue. The Sixteenth Karmapa certainly opposed the practice.
I have asked. The response varies from a quick changing of the subject, to support for The DL to mutterings about Dharamsala and "minding its own business".
I have no horse in this race btw. I think the whole idea of bogeymen harming the Dalai Lama OR being placated, OR Oracles, is medieval tosh. Akin to the career choice of the Witchfinder General or The Pope who excommunicated his horse.
I have asked. The response varies from a quick changing of the subject, to support for The DL to mutterings about Dharamsala and "minding its own business".
I have no horse in this race btw. I think the whole idea of bogeymen harming the Dalai Lama OR being placated, OR Oracles, is medieval tosh. Akin to the career choice of the Witchfinder General or The Pope who excommunicated his horse.
LOL
Maybe the Pope recognised the animal realm!
I meet and communicate with many Buddhists, especially Tibetan Buddhists and NKT and it's fair to say that most are happy pursuing their practices.
Start talking about this controversy and there are two types of reaction. It's either 'we do our thing and we're not much bothered what others do' or 'these evil people are harming our practice and our guru'.
That's pretty sad, as it shows how many fail to control anger and attachment when faced with, for some, their first serious challenge.
I meet regularly with people on both sides of this schism and find that they are very similar - good students of Buddhadharma, kind and compassionate.
I can only pray that one day, either through unification or division, that all may practice free from politics and with mutual respect.
You don't usually hear their opinions opinion because it's not a Kagyu or Nyingma practice. But when asked, they have supported the Dalai Lama's position on the issue. The Sixteenth Karmapa certainly opposed the practice.
Hi I am new on this thread but just for your info found this on a forum and I have also heard it before by some Lamas and monks. This is found in Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche's Collected Works, I am sharing this because I think people here are open to learning and have an objective, non-sectarian/biased view, or willingness to learn and I am hoping you will be inspired by this account for your personal practice to be even more firm and not for political purposes:
While the Sixteenth Karmapa (the previous Karmapa) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal he stopped at Urgyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time the Nepalese king and queen were there and came out to greet him with a scarf. When he went into the monastery there was a statue of Guru Dragpo with Dharmapala Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet. The Karmapa stood in the presence of the statue for awhile, then pointed his finger at it and asked “who is the person that said to build this statue? This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t say to build it, this is not one of the deities you can’t rely on (meaning you can rely on Dorje Shugden). Although the time is a little early in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” (Dorje Shugden) Out of all the abbots and masters present not one came forward to answer. The Karmapa said “remove this now.” Immediately a person with an axe and shovel came and had to remove it. Many lamas present at that time definitely remember, a seventy five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witnessed this event.:eek:
If any of you are interested to know why HHDL banned Dorje Shugden you may find this read on the main reasons and how HH the Dalai Lama actually announced that Dorje Shugden practiced is to Bad (quite hilarious & can be quite superstitious). This article is lengthy as it's like a transcribe from HHDL's own mouth. Very interesting and it shows that HHDL's type of reasonings only serve a certain type of mind set (not ppl who are educated, thinkers, movers or shakers but the normal Tibetan community of farmers/villagers/pro Dalai Lama followers). Here you will discover how everything HHDL says is so illogical and has so many loop holes.
Like what Yeshe says I too cannot see inside HHDL's motivation for this ridiculous BAN but I sure do hope it is a skillful way of a Bodhisattva spreading the Dharma and Dorje Shugden practice far into the future. Why? Because isn't it apparent, as HHDL is a celeb in the west, BANNING anything more over a religious practice for any good reason is a BIG CONTROVERSY & MEDIA HYPE automatically. It's a controversy because HHDL while creating this BAN is going around the world in His campaign of "Religious Autonomy, Human Rights and Religious Freedom" Hu??? Isn't HH basically shooting himself in the foot? So either HHDL is insane or he has a bigger reason for doing this???
So far all Thanks to HH, we hear, we see, we read, we discuss more on Dorje Shugden then ever before! Dorje Shugden is literally being heard around the world and has even reached prime international Media coverage. Bad publicity is still Publicity!
This not to say the persecution of his own people/monks and even high Lamas being threatened, who does this practice is Right! It does not give HHDL & TGIE the right and a good excuse to cause harm to others - that is already against Buddhist vows Period. No need to even discuss the legalities and political side of things.
That is just totally not acceptable. So that part needs to be stop. And if the WSS think they can or have stop this by their protest and it has benefited many from being persecuted well then that's great and I applaud them of their efforts and courage, but i don't necessary think the methods/approach that they have adopted by slandering or defaming HHDL may not be the best. Because here they are leaving impressions that DS practitioners are aggressive & for non-Buddhist is can create a confusion.
Well I pray and hope that one day soon we can all be left doing our practices harmoniously like before with no agenda. No one should break you from your Guru samaya as that would cause serious consequences of schism created within the sangha. 2. In any democratic country, nation, leader today, would never create a BAN on any religion. Imagine you trying to Ban muslim in you country what would you get?! Freedom of religion and religious harmony is the basic human right for everyone. If you choose not to practice Buddhism, I cannot condemn you, right.
I am a Dorje Shgden practitioner and I am proud of it and no one can tell me it is bad when all I have gained have been good
Hey all, woot first post but now on to my question.
I went on a reading binge one night over the information I could find on the ban on Shugden worship and I was wondering, why exactly would the Dalai Lama ban any sort of worship? Would'nt it ultimately be counterproductive to sharing enlightenment and bringing people onto the path? Espechially when his own teachers and himself used the deity Shugden. I read as well that many people who refuse to stop are becomming kind of outcasts which doesn't seem very Buddha like espechially if I remember right the Buddha said his own path isn't the only one and to question his own words and always be searching.
I'm not a Buddhist I just really love what I have read about the Buddha and his words and was just curious on other peoples opinion on whats going on. Hopefully I chose the right board on this forum. Thanks in advance.
I believe this was the original question posted and created for this post. Hence, I believe I am on the right post no?
This controversy will not die overnight. There will always be people criticising Shugden practitioners despite all the logical arguments presented against HH the Dalai Lama's statements (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=9022). In the end, it is up to our own conscience - whether we believe our teachers are right to give us a certain practice or not. We cannot be selective and just accept certain practices and neglect other practices.
It is one thing in Tibetan Buddhism that makes me wonder if the whole dharma is a crock of shit, that people are worshipping spirits. Personally.
I sometimes despair about the convolutions of Tibetan religious politics. Why can't they just agree to disagree?
Because once the DL has thrown his weight behind a position, his followers can get what might be called fanatical. Their devotion to the DL is very strong.
Why has this thread been revived? I thought Fede said back in 2010 she was going to close it.
i'm curious why so many forums will not allow discussion of the Dorje Shugden issue if nobody is being malicious or making personal attacks. I notice that this forum is quite mature and well moderated so i hope that discussions can continue because the issue is STILL very much alive.
And yes, i wish we can all agree to disagree. On my facebook, i get an average of a message a week from different people telling me why i am evil because i am a Dorje Shugden practitioner and yet when i ask them what makes me evil, there is nothing except HH the Dalai Lama said so.
Anyway, thanks for your indulgences and i hope this thread remains open for discussion
i'm curious why so many forums will not allow discussion of the Dorje Shugden issue if nobody is being malicious or making personal attacks.
More often than not, it's just an issue of a forum administrator not wanting the headache of it all, the squabbles, ect., but there's also no denying the fact that many have also caved in when it comes to the pressure brought by supporters of the Dalai Lama.
Comments
Its a traditional practise passed on by the root and lineage guru's friend, of course the DL is entitled to his opinion he used to practise dorje shugden and even wrote a praise to him alot of people who practise have a commitment to practise and what the DL has done is effectivley banned practise and forced non private public referendum through the monastry halls
People should have freedom of choice what to practise especially in the context of it being a traditional practise, i loose all confidence in someone who cant abide by the law of the indian government when operating on their soil.
Palzang
The TGIE has decreed which deites are 'legal' in its persecution of Shugden practitioners, so further mixing 'local' politics and religion.
They can therefore have no complaint when this is then tested against the laws of India - the legitimate government of the Tibetans living there.
You are right in that guru yoga is totally unconnected with politicians, and that includes HHDL as the political leader of a group which has no legal governmental status, and needs to stop behaving as if it has.
Hmm if the Dalai Lama told you it was a good idea to jump off a bridge, then--.....
If they get something positive from it, then what does it matter if it's your cup of tea or not?
It's not so much about any of this, anyway. It's a human rights issue in the end. People should be allowed to practice their faith so long as it harms no one else, and without fearing for their own safety, no?
It doesnt however deity discrimination does. :eekblue:
No, silly...I said unless it was in opposition to basic moral teachings (not to mention common sense).
Naturally you are right, and that is not what I am suggesting here. I said if people are getting something positive out of it despite it not being an interest of mine, that is perfectly fine, they just shouldn't be shocked and outraged when their practice is challenged.
Even more important than those reasons (not to obey HHDL) is the issue of samaya. In order to abandon the practice many would have to break samaya with their root guru - just about the worst thing anyone in the Vajrayana can do. This is where the NKT parted company with HHDL and isnisted on their right to retain the lineage practices given to GKG by Trijang Rinpoche.
It is OK if HHDL wants to break his own samaya with Trijang Rinpoche, but to instruct others to do so on pain of expulsion, creating homelessness and starvation, is unacceptable for anyone following moral discipline and guru yoga.
It is this which makes people shocked and outraged, not the utterly unsubstantiated claims that HHDL would be harmed if Gelugpas continued Shugden practice. Many have continued - HHDL seems fine while they are in exile from their monasteries, some of them for the second time.
This issue should lie down and die, but I think the reason it continues is that HHDL is still travelling the world wearing the persona of compassion and humility, which some find hypocritical, especially when still suffering from the suppression of their religious and human rights.
Personally, I am inclined to think that HHDL is probably very shocked that he could not act free from interference, and may now understand that he is a guest, not a ruler, in India. He does not have diplomatic immunity to harm other guests of the Indian Government with impunity. I hope he never seeks to do so again.
Yeshe, I thank you for your helpful and informative post. I am left wondering how this practice leads to starvation and homelessness because of HHDL's perspective against it? Monks in other religious traditions have always been dismissed for all kinds of theological/philosophical reasons. HHDL has never suggested that people pelt one another with rocks or refuse to feed hungry people.
Regardless whether people believe him to be right or wrong, HHDL is clearly acting from precedent within the Gelugpa tradition, as his statements against this practice are traced back to previous DLs since the fifth. The fact that he is a hypocrite going against his own root guru? That is reasonable criticism, but it doesn't change the fact that he IS the Dalai Lama. Hey...he is the guy that was chosen! Are they now questioning their own power to determine which children are incarnations of previous lamas?
OK, I'll spell out the direct link between HHDL changing his mind and the homeless and starving state of the expelled monks:
Well, HHDL is on video on Youtube banning the practice, and monasteries did as they were told in expelling the monks who refused to agree to sign that they would abandon Shugden practice; there is the cause of expulsion. I spoke to an eye witness who visited the monasteries and brought back tales of rigged ballots, coercion etc. - so many were fearful of being expelled themselves.
Now bearing in mind cause and effect, what happens if an expelled monk is then denied his ID card and papers permitting him to buy food or obtain accommodation or travel? He is starving and homeless. And shops have denied access to Shugdne practitioners for fear of losing their income from the monastery itself.
There was actually a record (again on video I think) of the TGIE asking that the Shugden monks be treated as exiles, with no access to food etc. The Delhi High Court brought an end to this by demanding evidence that the TGIE was no longer denying these documents to the expelled monks. I haven't seen any new court papers to confirm that they have yet done so.
Knowing what it means to be expelled from your monastic home in Tibet and to be a starving refugee, how may it be justified to impose this once more on other Tibetan monks.
Thankfully, as time has passed, the monks are now largely OK and monasteries supporting the Shugden practice are stronger than ever.
This even includes the Ganden Tripa, the true head of the Gelugpas, who has retired - now he cannot be bullied, he has made a free choice to enter a monastery practising Dorje Shugden.
In fact, the persecution has strengthened the worldwide practice of Shugden IMHO, both amongst the Gelugpas who have been loyal to their root gurus, and in the NKT who are loyal to theirs, keeping the true lineage tradition alive and well.
For details, I suggest reading a copy of The Great Deception book produced by the Western Shugden Society, whose websites have links to the Youtube evidence.
This video explores the effects of the ban:
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dorje-shugden-documentary/
Once again, thank you for giving me the opportunity to understand your perspective on this issue. I take it that you are involved with NKT or some format of Shugden practice? Or perhaps you are merely a sympathizer?
This monkey mind of mine swings through the Theravadan forest more than any other tradition, so it is far from my place to hold any firm views on this issue. I read what is going on with fascination, as it sounds to me like a lot of superstitious beliefs are being used as ploys on both sides of this issue, and such things lie outside of my immediate mode of practice.
For whatever it is worth, whenever I have received advice from friends practicing Vajrayana (on meditation, on mantras, on many practical matters of Buddhism), the advice is usually exceptional. I tend to take it very seriously, and do what I can to adopt it, work with it, and more often then not, find it very beneficial.
I think the ability to let go of firm dogma would be something we should expect from all dhamma practitioners, most notably HHDL, so my guess is that this issue is:
(1) something so crucial, something so grave in consequence, as to cause his holiness to take such a firm stance, or else
(2) he is simply validating the first noble truth through his behavior...namely that grasping leads to dukkha.
It sounds to me like you are suggesting the latter. If so, then the Dalai Lama has made an enormous mistake, one causing intense and unnecessary misery to a lot of people. Do I have your understanding captured accurately?
I enjoy these conversations. It is important that we are able to talk openly about different perspectives and beliefs without the personal abuse found earlier in this thread. I am open to having my mind changed and my understanding broadened. Isn't that one of the biggest reasons for having these forums? :- )
Most Appreciatively...
I cannot possibly know the motivation of HHDL. This is crucial. He consults a spirit oracle, Nechung, so maybe a spirit told him what to do. He certainly believes the oracle to be always right.
All I can map is the creation of causes and consequences. In this case the other imponderable aspect is whether the short term suffering of the few will be of benfit to the many.
In other words, HHDL may consider that compassion is best expressed through this action. Others, including myself, allow for the fact that however lofty his status, he is just plain wrong and causing unnecessary suffering which benefits nobody.
He is on video, to which I posted a link, declaring past masters as wrong, incuding his own root guru. Within TB this is a hugely damaging assertion, especially to himself in terms of his vows.
If he simply chose to claim his root guru and other lineage masters were wrong and decided to change his own practice, there would be little problem aside from the breach of his samaya with them. However, when HHDL speaks and commands, others must follow. That is the system.
HHDL has stated many different justifications for the ban. IMHO none of them makes any sense.
More causes and consequences. Most of them very negative IMHO.
In the end, it sets Gelugpas against each other and may even cause a schism. I believe that HHDL may see this as a price worth paying in his quest to unify and control all Tibetan Buddhist schools.
You don't usually hear their opinions opinion because it's not a Kagyu or Nyingma practice. But when asked, they have supported the Dalai Lama's position on the issue. The Sixteenth Karmapa certainly opposed the practice.
Some people felt the traditions should be practiced separately, so they could keep the power they already have ("things remain as they are") and used DS as an excuse, as previous Dalai Lamas did. Some people wanted to mix the practice, causing the power balance to shift ("things will change"), and used the ban of DS as an excuse.
When the power of non-gelug schools grew in exile, the pressure to ban the practice increased, so the Dalai Lama stopped practicing it and to make the separatists happy banned it.
The Dalai Lama more than ever started loosing his Gelug identity, and turning himself into the symbol of all schools of Buddhism. That way, he remains in power, his opposition gets satisfied.
The problem is some people really took the practice to heart, mixing politics and religion.
There is nothing in this issue of even a slight buddhist nature. It's politics using the language of religion, as in any theocratic state.
And then you get a bunch of western folks that like to pretend they are tibetan twisting their pants over this, saying it is an evil spirit and on the other side people saying it is a good spirit, and yet they have NO idea of the political implications of this problem or its origins, like it is all a matter of "The Dalai Lama said so".
Well, the Dalai Lama also had a shaman that - apparently - could 'turn' the bad weather. Do you guys believe in that too? Does it have anything AT ALL to do with Buddhism? No, folks, Bon is not buddhism, okay? Neither is Tibetan politics.
I would challenge is that it is only Westerners getting their knickers in a knot - HHDL and the Gelugpa monks he expelled seem pretty upset all round. In the case of the NKT, they of course left HHDL's theocracy some years ago, and through the WSS have argued about the plight of the expelled monks, not for their own benefit from what I could see.
We also have the throwing out of the baby with the bathwater. As you say, HHDL uses a spirit oracle and shamans, but if he argues Shugden can harm him he actually recognises that he, Avalokiteshvara, can be harmed by a low grade demon. Twisted logic as well as twisted underwear on all sides.
Tantra is not Bon. Certainly Dharmapalas are a very important aspect of Tantra, and to command someone to abandon their lineage root guru's advice and empowerment with regard to the choice of Dharmapala is as bad as it gets.
I regard the whole action against Shugden as a political theocratic move, which as you say has nothing to do with Buddhism. It still has everything to do with religious freedom, enshrined in the law of India, a country which has shown real compassion in rehoming monks expelled from monasteries in Tibet - rather than, like the TGIE, repeating the repression.
I see the protests against the expulsion of the Shugden monks as being as valid as the protests against the expulsion of the monks from Tibet, albeit that the act was less brutal, albeit that it was forceful and destructive, smashing statues etc. and throwing monks onto the street without homes, food etc.
Oh your assertion about 'a bunch of western folks that like to pretend they are tibetan' is hilarious. By your logic that makes all western Buddhist a bunch of folk pretending to be Chinese, Japanese, Thai or even Indian, especially if they dress up as monks and nuns! Mocking western Sangha is easy, and not very wholesome.
I have no horse in this race btw. I think the whole idea of bogeymen harming the Dalai Lama OR being placated, OR Oracles, is medieval tosh. Akin to the career choice of the Witchfinder General or The Pope who excommunicated his horse.
LOL
Maybe the Pope recognised the animal realm!
I meet and communicate with many Buddhists, especially Tibetan Buddhists and NKT and it's fair to say that most are happy pursuing their practices.
Start talking about this controversy and there are two types of reaction. It's either 'we do our thing and we're not much bothered what others do' or 'these evil people are harming our practice and our guru'.
That's pretty sad, as it shows how many fail to control anger and attachment when faced with, for some, their first serious challenge.
I meet regularly with people on both sides of this schism and find that they are very similar - good students of Buddhadharma, kind and compassionate.
I can only pray that one day, either through unification or division, that all may practice free from politics and with mutual respect.
Hi I am new on this thread but just for your info found this on a forum and I have also heard it before by some Lamas and monks. This is found in Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche's Collected Works, I am sharing this because I think people here are open to learning and have an objective, non-sectarian/biased view, or willingness to learn and I am hoping you will be inspired by this account for your personal practice to be even more firm and not for political purposes:
While the Sixteenth Karmapa (the previous Karmapa) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal he stopped at Urgyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time the Nepalese king and queen were there and came out to greet him with a scarf. When he went into the monastery there was a statue of Guru Dragpo with Dharmapala Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet. The Karmapa stood in the presence of the statue for awhile, then pointed his finger at it and asked “who is the person that said to build this statue? This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t say to build it, this is not one of the deities you can’t rely on (meaning you can rely on Dorje Shugden). Although the time is a little early in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” (Dorje Shugden) Out of all the abbots and masters present not one came forward to answer. The Karmapa said “remove this now.” Immediately a person with an axe and shovel came and had to remove it. Many lamas present at that time definitely remember, a seventy five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witnessed this event.:eek:
By Trinley Kalsang
Extracted from http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=565.0
Like what Yeshe says I too cannot see inside HHDL's motivation for this ridiculous BAN but I sure do hope it is a skillful way of a Bodhisattva spreading the Dharma and Dorje Shugden practice far into the future. Why? Because isn't it apparent, as HHDL is a celeb in the west, BANNING anything more over a religious practice for any good reason is a BIG CONTROVERSY & MEDIA HYPE automatically. It's a controversy because HHDL while creating this BAN is going around the world in His campaign of "Religious Autonomy, Human Rights and Religious Freedom" Hu??? Isn't HH basically shooting himself in the foot? So either HHDL is insane or he has a bigger reason for doing this???
So far all Thanks to HH, we hear, we see, we read, we discuss more on Dorje Shugden then ever before! Dorje Shugden is literally being heard around the world and has even reached prime international Media coverage. Bad publicity is still Publicity!
It is on dorjeshugden.com forum topic on: Dholgyal (Dorje Shugden) Might Harm me-1997 http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=631.0
That is just totally not acceptable. So that part needs to be stop. And if the WSS think they can or have stop this by their protest and it has benefited many from being persecuted well then that's great and I applaud them of their efforts and courage, but i don't necessary think the methods/approach that they have adopted by slandering or defaming HHDL may not be the best. Because here they are leaving impressions that DS practitioners are aggressive & for non-Buddhist is can create a confusion.
Well I pray and hope that one day soon we can all be left doing our practices harmoniously like before with no agenda. No one should break you from your Guru samaya as that would cause serious consequences of schism created within the sangha. 2. In any democratic country, nation, leader today, would never create a BAN on any religion. Imagine you trying to Ban muslim in you country what would you get?! Freedom of religion and religious harmony is the basic human right for everyone. If you choose not to practice Buddhism, I cannot condemn you, right.
I am a Dorje Shgden practitioner and I am proud of it and no one can tell me it is bad when all I have gained have been good
I believe this was the original question posted and created for this post. Hence, I believe I am on the right post no?
Thank You.
Why has this thread been revived? I thought Fede said back in 2010 she was going to close it.
And yes, i wish we can all agree to disagree. On my facebook, i get an average of a message a week from different people telling me why i am evil because i am a Dorje Shugden practitioner and yet when i ask them what makes me evil, there is nothing except HH the Dalai Lama said so.
Anyway, thanks for your indulgences and i hope this thread remains open for discussion