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What if Hell is real?
emmak
Veteran
I watched a film the other night about heaven and hell and demons etc. I have never believed in the Christian notion of heaven and hell, even as a child. But this film gave me the heebie jeebies, and now I think - What if there is a hell? Because I do not believe in it can it still exist? If I don't beleive in it will I automatically go to hell IF there is a hell?
Now I am really freaked out. Please don't laugh at me...
Now I am really freaked out. Please don't laugh at me...
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Comments
I have no answer to the question about Hell, but I did come to realise that my terror was matter for reflection and obsservation. Having been a Catholic (does one ever stop, I wonder?), I am aware that the Church has been extremely careful never to say that any single person is in Hell, although She will declare that some are in Heaven.
I went back to Scripture and found there that the promises of Christ are of reconciliation, not condemnation. The promises are there, whether we believe them or not. After Mass, daily, we would say: Ora pro nobis, Sancta Dei Genetrix. Ut digni efficiamur promissionibus Christi. The promise does not depend on our worthiness.
In the Buddhist cosmology, the 'Hell realms' are part of the great circle of rebirth and, thus, as temporary as all the others.
No, that makes you sound OVEReducated!
What movie was it?
Palzang
Now some of the more extreme fundamentalists . . . that's another story.
Just think that is one of the funniest lines in one of my favorite movies.
Yep, I had 4 years of the good stuff to learn the bible the way god intended (-;
Can still recite all the dogma, and, to this day, I still wonder if anyone other than myself has actually read "the Lords Prayer"
However, here is a fun game to play. Let us search for the word "Hell" in the bible. I will use "Young's Literal Translation". Count 'em with me: ZERO Three "Hellenists", but no hell. It ain't found in the old testament where the devil roams the earth and hangs out with god in heaven. Many a Sola Scriptura person will tell you hell is just turning to dust.
If you want some friendly reading on this dreadful subject, may I suggest What Has Happened to Hellfire? (thanks to our door-to-door friends)
I don't think turning to dust is such a bad thing -- it's becoming one with the universe, without having that pesky brain to get in the way. In my opinion, that's better than eternity bowing in paradise and listening to those dang harps; turning to dust is becoming one with God.
P.S. Sorry for the latin sidetrack.
Thinkst thou that I who saw the face of God,
And tasted the eternal joys of heaven,
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells
In being deprived of eternal bliss?"
Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Well spoken, Palzang-la.
Tell me about it. I was married to Satan for 10 years!
-bf
What was the movie, for Christ's sake! Dont' leave us in suspenders!
I guess one good way to look at it is thus:
What if being a Buddhist, you realize that you are just going to die. Even if you come back as a reincarnation - you won't know it. Do you recall any of your past lives now? I don't - so even if I did live before, I know nothing of it.
I believe Hell is Death. No chance of living and no chance of Eternal Life. I don't believe Hell is something like they referenced in The Black Adder where "demons with pitchforks will pummel and prod your backside for Eternity" - You live in Australia, I'm sure you've seen this series with Rowan Atkinson (he's hiliarious).
And if, being a Buddhist, I know I'm going to die, but while I'm on this Earth, I just want to achieve Enlightenment or Awakening - what does it matter even if there is a God and Heaven and Hell. I've come to a peace that I know of.
I know I'm alive right now. Why should I spend this "known" existance worrying about following some other "guys" religious visions when he could be as wrong as wrong gets. Why should I waste this life away fretting about something I really have no control over.
There are so many different interpretations of what a Christian God wants that - no matter what - there are going to be a hell of a lot of people not going to Heaven.
I say, do what we can with this life. Live for today. Live like today is your last day. Live like you'll never see your loved ones again. Live like you have one day to do things right. If you gain Awakening - who cares if you go to Hell? Awakening and finding peace in the life you have to live - may make you not even care.
-bf
Really? Me too!!! So, you're my ex hahaha
The film was 'Constantine'. I did not rate it very highly, but the hell part scared me and got me thinking. Thanks for the replies.
At one point, Aucassin says that he has no intention of going to Heaven to be bored with the clergy, but prefers Hell, where all the interesting and beautiful people will be found.
This is Andrew Lang's translation (courtesy of Project Gutenberg):
that is a brilliant selection. I also love the modern fables:
Kevin Lomax: "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven", is that it?
John Milton: Why not? I'm here on the ground with my nose in it since the whole thing began. I've nurtured every sensation man's been inspired to have. I cared about what he wanted and I never judged him. Why? Because I never rejected him, in spite of all his imperfections. I'm a fan of man. I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist.
The Devil's Advocate
Part Two of Sutra of the Past Vows
of Earth Store Bodhisattva
Names of Hells
At that time Universal Worthy Bodhisattva, Mahasattva said to Earth Store Bodhisattva, "Humane One, for the sake of gods and dragons, those in the Fourfold Assembly, and all other beings of the present and future, please tell us the names of the hells where beings in the Saha world on the continent of Jambudvipa must suffer retributions for offenses they commit.
Please also describe what happens during retributions undergone for evil deeds so that beings in the future Dharma Ending Age will know what those retributions are."
Earth Store Bodhisattva replied, "Humane One, based on the awesome spiritual power of the Buddha and relying on your strength, Great Bodhisattva, I will give a general list of the names of hells and describe some of what happens during retributions undergone for offenses and evil deeds.
"Humane One, in Eastern Jambudvipa is mountain range called Iron Ring. The mountain is pitch black because the light of sun and moon do not shine on it. A great hell is located there named Ultimately Relentless. Another hell is called Great Avichi.
There is also a hell called Four Horns, a hell called Flying Knives, a hell called Fiery Arrows, a hell called Squeezing Mountains,
a hell called Piercing Spears, a hell called Iron Carts,
a hell called Iron Beds, a hell called Iron Oxen,
a hell called Iron Clothing, a hell called Thousand Blades,
a hell called Iron Asses, a hell called Molten Copper,
a hell called Embracing Pillar, a hell called Flowing Fire,
a hell called Plowing Tongues, a hell called Hacking Heads,
a hell called Burning Feet, a hell called Pecking Eyes,
a hell called Iron Pellets, a hell called Quarreling,
a hell called Iron Ax, and a hell called Massive Hatred."
Earth Store Bodhisattva said, "Humane One, within the Iron Ring are endless hells like that.
There is also the hell of Crying Out, the hell of Pulling Tongues,
the hell of Dung and Urine, the hell of Copper Locks,
the hell of Fire Elephants, the hell of Fire Dogs,
the hell of Fire Horses, the hell of Fire Oxen,
the hell of Fire Mountains, the hell of Fire Rocks,
the hell of Fire Beds, the hell of Fire Beams,
the hell of Fire Eagles, the hell of Sawing Teeth,
the hell of Flaying Skin, the hell of Drinking Blood,
the hell of Burning Hands, the hell of Burning Feet,
the hell of Hanging Hooks, the hell of Fire Rooms,
the hell of Iron Cells, and the hell of Fire Wolves.
"Each of those hells contains lesser hells numbering from one, or two, or three, or four, to hundreds of thousands. Each of those lesser hells has its own name."
Earth Store Bodhisattva told Universal Worthy Bodhisattva, "Humane One, such are the karmic responses of beings in Jambudvipa who commit evil deeds.
The power of karma is extremely great. It rivals Mount Sumeru in its heights. It surpasses the great oceans in its depth. It obstructs the path leading to Sagehood. For that reason, beings should never think that minor bad deeds are unimportant or assume that they do not count as offenses. After death there will be retributions to undergo that cover all those details.
Fathers and sons have the closest relationship, but their roads diverge and each must go his own way. Even if they met, neither would consent to undergo suffering in the other's place.
Now, based on the awesome spiritual power of the Buddha, I will describe some of the retributions for offenses that take place in the hells. Please, Humane One, listen for a moment to what I am going to say."
Universal Worthy replied, "I have long known of the retributions that happen in the Three Evil Paths. My hope in asking the Humane One to describe them is that when beings in the future Dharma Ending Age who are doing evil deeds hear the Humane One's descriptions they will be moved to take refuge with the Buddha."
Earth Store said, "Humane One, this is what happens during retributions in the hells. Offenders may go to a hell in which their tongues are stretched out and plowed through by cattle;
or to a hell in which their hearts pulled out and eaten by Yakshas;
or to a hell in which their bodies are cooked In cauldrons of boiling liquid;
or to a hell in which they are forced to embrace red-hot copper pillars;
or to a hell in which they are burned by fire that constantly pursues them;
or to a hell in which cold and Ice are all-pervasive;
or to a hell in which excrement and urine are endless;
or to a hell in which flying maces are unavoidable;
or to a hell in which fiery spears stab them repeatedly;
or to a hell in which they are constantly beaten on the chests and backs;
or to a hell in which their hands and feet are burned;
or to a hell in which they are bound by Iron snakes that coil around them;
or to a hell in which they are pursued by racing Iron dogs;
or to a hell in which their bodies are stretched by Iron mules.
"Humane One, to inflict these retributions in each hell hundreds of thousands of instruments made of copper, iron, stone, or fire arise from karmic force. Those four materials come into being in response to the kinds of karma offenders created.
If I were to explain in detail what happens during retributions in the hells, then I would need to tell of the hundreds of thousands of sufferings that must be undergone in each specific hell. How much more would that be the case for the sufferings in all the many hells!
Now, having based myself upon the awesome spiritual power of the Buddha, I have given a general answer to the Humane One's question, for if I were to speak in detail, it would take eons."
It would be a concert of the ages. Where "death metal" meets "goth".
-bf
Yeah, but they tricked him when they undid the mojo on that ring or whatever so earth isn't really Hell. Made me think, too, though.
I miss Angel!
whuduh thunk, a Buddhist teaching from which I can infer that I am destined for hell :doh:
Feeding off of peoples fears of the unknown seems so un-Buddha. If only I could go back to ignorance.
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...
...
I'm clicking my heels frantically, saying the magic words "there's no place like home", but it's just not working. I now see buddhists as mean, scarey people :grumble:
As my master so often reminds me, we experience each of these 'realms' in samsara, probably every day They are not punishments or rewards, they are the consequence of the very nature of phenomena and their arising. And, as such, are 'empty'.
When the Buddha Shakyamuni turned the Wheel of Dharma in the Deer Park (and Elohim has posted links to this first teaching a number of times), having shown the reality of suffering and of the causes of suffering, he did not stop there. He had seen that there is a way out! The Third Noble Truth is a shout of triumph! We are condemned neither to punishments nor to rewards; we are freed from karma by walking the Noble Eighfold Path.
Of course, in culture after culture, Buddhism encountered ancient myths. Because Buddhism is not particularly concerned with such fictions but, rather, with the Reality that the Buddha saw and taught, they sort of stick to 'local' Buddhism, like burrs to a sheep's fleece. If we use these stories as images, we may find some of them very powerful in the course of certain types of visualisation-meditation.
But, to take them seriously, as 'facts' is to allow ourselves to be distracted from the real business at hand.
-bf
P.S. I love Canada! :canflag:
:cheer:
Ok, now back to our topic . . .
:hair:
I read all the Harry Potter books before my kids, and I love them all.... just thought I'd lighten up.... :winkc:
My comment was a "haha, only serious" type thing. I don't believe for one second that many Buddhists subscribe to a hell called Iron Carts, a hell called Iron Oxen, a hell called Hacking Heads, the hell of Pulling Tongues, the hell of Copper Locks, the hell of Fire Oxen, etc ad nauseum. But, what troubles me is that someone, somewhere bothered saying "based on the awesome spiritual power of the Buddha and relying on your strength, Great Bodhisattva, I will give a general list of the names of hells and describe some of what happens during retributions undergone for offenses and evil deeds...for the sake of gods and dragons". And someone wrote it down, and the teaching is still floating around today. THAT troubles me.
I think it was in my intro where I said I feel that Buddhism today is nothing like Buddhism the Buddha envisioned. (If I didn't say that, I should have :P)
comicallyinsane started what could be a brilliant thread called If Buddha Lived Today. I think it's an important question. My very ignorant opinion has me favoring the folks over at Amida Trust. And there I comfortabley rest -- as I always say, Wisdom IS folly, my friends.
FWIW, I think this thread started with talk of Constantine. This past weekend I picked up the comic book "Hellblazer: Dangerous Habits". GREAT reading (starts a little slow, but it's worth it.) I'd suggest anyone go to the nearest comic book store and buy a copy (or bum it off a geeky friend :P) It's the story of John Constantine and his battle with cancer. I think the Buddhist could relate to the concept of dangerous habits.
:wtf:
I love how that little guy waves the flag that stands for "Brothers & Sisters"...
-bf
Actually, I was thinking of Nearly-Headless Nick
Oh, really? What was I thinking - ?!?
you know... that was the perfect time to raise the :bs: flag...
-bf
Mmmm.... graaaaaavy....
D'oh!
-bf
http://www.factoryfarming.com/
It is not just in our heads.
For further info on hell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell
And whether BF looks good in his mother's clothing.....