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Back Pain
I'm trying to beat this problem but it's been difficult to say the least. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
The pain starts minutes after sitting. It's a tightness kind of pain in my middle back. I've tried doing yoga and other back stretches every day but with little improvement. I've also seen a chiroprator but that was a waste of time and money.
I believe it might be because of a history of poor posture. Being tall, I've tended to slouch over the years. Sitting up straight in mediation is not something my back is used to. I do notice, though, that the problem gets progressively worse as the day goes on. I can usually meditate without too much problem first thing in the morning, but after that it's a writeoff.
It's a real pissoff when you go to sit for a half hour only to feel the pain setting in minutes after starting. I'm not experienced enough to ignore the pain or make it my focal point. I just find in most cases I get up angry and try again later or even the next day.
I still believe proper exercises could do the trick. It's just a matter of which ones. The 20 minutes or so I spend now doing back stretches every day just isn't getting the results.
Maybe someone else is familiar with this or has some suggestions as to a more effective approach to this. Thanks.
The pain starts minutes after sitting. It's a tightness kind of pain in my middle back. I've tried doing yoga and other back stretches every day but with little improvement. I've also seen a chiroprator but that was a waste of time and money.
I believe it might be because of a history of poor posture. Being tall, I've tended to slouch over the years. Sitting up straight in mediation is not something my back is used to. I do notice, though, that the problem gets progressively worse as the day goes on. I can usually meditate without too much problem first thing in the morning, but after that it's a writeoff.
It's a real pissoff when you go to sit for a half hour only to feel the pain setting in minutes after starting. I'm not experienced enough to ignore the pain or make it my focal point. I just find in most cases I get up angry and try again later or even the next day.
I still believe proper exercises could do the trick. It's just a matter of which ones. The 20 minutes or so I spend now doing back stretches every day just isn't getting the results.
Maybe someone else is familiar with this or has some suggestions as to a more effective approach to this. Thanks.
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Comments
-On your back -
Continue to do your excersises first off. Stretch often, warm up as you rise and stretch, stretch before you go to bed, use hot and cold pads on your muscles. I would suggest going to a restorative yoga practice but tell your teacher about your back and s/he will usually give you techniques that will not cause more damage. Stretch your hamstrings alot of back pain is cause by tight hamstrings.
-On meditation-
How are you sitting when you meditate? In what position? There are meditation methods that allow you to lie down or sit in a chair even kneeling is a possibility. I would stand as I couldn't kneel or sit due to my brace.
I also offer instruction and guidance to folks on correct body structure and mechanics, based on Chinese Medical and Taoist Chi Kung. I and others have benefited from training to correctly align the spine, and the shoulder girdle over the spine. One thing that really helped me was to learn to 'suspend the headtop' and to 'push the Mingmen point backward' in the lower back. This tends to take a lot of stress (tension) out of the erector spinae muscles. For beginners I have them sit in a chair and place their lower back/upper buttocks against the back of the chair as they sit, so they can feel the lower back pressing against the chair. I then have them, knd of roll forward and back ward over their butt to feel their lower back arch forward (extend) and backward (flex). What we want is to feel the back slightly flex and the muscles release a little. This is like 'push the mingmen backward'. In the beginning of training I have folks sit with their lower back supported by the chair. I also have more advanced practitioners, with back problems, use this position if they start feeling pain or fatigue during extended sitting.
I also, instruct those with back problems in the 'Sleeping Buddha Posture' - right-side to the floor, right hand, palm up, near the head, left hand, palm downward, near the chest, or along the thigh, with the left leg either placed behind the right ankle or propped up with rolls or pillows to correctly align the spine. Propping the left leg up a little aligns the spine, the best.
I also instruct folks in correct standing and walking posture and mechanics so that they maintain a strong pliable spinal column.
So, you may wish to check this kind of training out.
P.S. I tried Hatha Yoga and Western Medical back stretches. They both made my condition worse, cuz it's not muscular it's neural and skeletal damage and these exercises just caused more inflamation and damage to the bones. Although I found swimming in a warm pool to help a lot.
As Jinzang mentioned, if you have a meditation teacher you should ask them what their advice would be. If you don't have one you can follow the wise advice you're getting on this thread.
My dad is also tall and I've been trying to get him to straighten up (he's in his late 70's) for a few years now. He only started slouching a few years ago but he gets the same pain in the middle of his back when he tries to keep his posture straight. I think it's muscle fatigue.
If what you're experiencing is muscle fatigue you can find out by doing your sitting meditation beside a mirror to check for correct posture and then sit until the pain becomes distracting. Do the same thing the next day but try to sit a little bit longer, try to endure the pain for a few minutes longer. Then do it again the next day and try to sit longer with the pain than you did the day before, and so on and so on. If you're able to sit longer each day before the pain becomes too much of a distraction it's probably muscle fatigue.
If that is the case, just keep doing what you're doing; sitting a little longer each time. Pretty soon your back muscles will grow stronger and the pain will start to diminish.
If you're unable to sit for longer periods without the pain becoming too distracting, your height or other back problems may be the cause in which case you should modify the way you sit. Try a chair, lying down, walking meditation, and so on. As Bob said, sitting compresses the spine, especially in taller people. Just find a position you can sit in as comfortably as possible. A little pain is not necessarily a bad thing and it will pass. It's the more distracting pain and potential injury causing pain you have to be careful with.
Good luck and let us know how things go!
P.S. And keep doing your back exercises. Doing them mindfully is in itself a form of meditation.
As others have already mentioned, its perfectly ok for people with back problems to sit in a chair or lie flat on their back to meditate.
Kind wishes
D.
.
a good starting point
just pay attention to the pain
try to see where exactly the pain comes from
at the beginning the pain seems to be all over the back
keep the full attention and try to see the exact point that comes the pain
after a while
it is obvious the point of pain is moving from here and there
follow it
just follow the point of pain
follow it
see what will happen
I haven't read the others opinion, but from the history you have given i have understand something and i may help you with my physiotherapy knowledge, according to your case the pain is worsen by prolonged sitting this is probably due to the incompetent musculature who are responsible to hold your meditative posture long enough, which consequently transfers the load of your body to what we call it non contractile tissues around your lower back like the ligaments disc and joint capsules, in addition i have stated that your height is long which by itself promotes flexion postures there by worsening injuries to your back structures and usually such persons have sway back posture deformity, if so i hope you will definitely benefit from back extension exercises and stretching of abdominal and hamstring muscles.
If you're having trouble meditating, try scooting against a wall to take the pressure off your back. You should meditate away from the wall as long as you can to build strength, but if the pain becomes distracting then you're not really accomplishing much.
Also, I found sitting cross-legged was too much for my back. I now kneel (wide stance) with a cushion under me instead. This has helped tremendously.
I've occasionally used bowing as a form of stretching and exercise for my lower back as well.
It seems my pain can go away if I adjust my posture in different ways. Sometimes if I slouch a lil, it goes away. (Which I know I shouldn't be slouching, but if it makes the pain go, then oh well). And sometimes it's the opposite. Straightening up some more, makes the pain go.
Sometimes I notice I am tilting my body to one side or to the back, and correcting that helps.
But I agree with the others who said meditating while lying down or on a chair might be better for you.
Also, what are the back exercises that you do? I am not an athletic person so I don't really know any good back exercises.
Next time I will sit in a chair and see how that works. And maybe the next time lying down, as long as I'm not sleepy- just to see. I think out of those I will be able to find a position to start out with. I do realize that at some point pain is just part of it, but if I could minimize it, that would be great!
I would still like some good back exercises, though. I should really end this slouching business. My mom always points out the old hunchbacks and says, "Do you want to look like that!?" and I grudgingly think, "Well, no..." *sigh*
On the plus side, I did find a timer sound that didn't scare the living daylights out of me! Note to self (and anyone else with an iPod/Phone): Harp is MUCH less scary than Marimba!
I am pretty heavy and kneeling would be hell on my legs, so this one's not an option for me.
This is one I need to try, as it seems Burmese is aggravating my right calf after each session. I'm afraid I'm gonna get an inflamed vein or something!
I agree totally. Pain has to be minimized if focus and concentration are to happen. I can't meditate "well" if my legs are bothering me. Pain might be part of an extended session or a retreat where you do a lot of sitting, but it doesn't absolutely have to be there, and any steps you can take to minimize it are welcome in my book.
Oh man, do I ever know what you're talking about. I am constantly scared of ending up like my uncle, who's got a bad hump on his back. I am headed that way pronto if I don't straighten up somehow. Sitting in front of the computer for extended periods doesn't help with your posture at all. I remind myself of straightening up all the time, but it seems my body will naturally tend to slouch as soon as I stop being mindful about it. I think it's just the laziness and fatigue I'm plagued with. It's SO much easier to slouch than to be straight back-ed.
I use my watch's timer and I don't get scared by it. It's pretty much your straight watch alarm going off. A lot of beeping, but that's about it. Glad to hear you found one that works for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afY5__sHB3o
Also, here are some yoga exercises you can do before your meditation session:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeaFQxg-Vr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGMO8X9559Y
Kneeling on a stool or sitting on a chair are both good options for those of us who lack the flexibility to sit cross-legged.
keep in mind that there is no such thing as unbearable pain.
and that deep down what keeps you agitated is the fear. Fear that somehow your position will damage your back even further, or that it will get worse and become unbearable.
If the position you are sitting is not going to damage your spine, then know that one day you should face your fear and sit with the pain.
That fear can amplify the pain by 100 folds (we freak ourselves out).
The day you can overcome your fear, that pain will dissipate and you will be left with the actual sensation of discomfort without the amplified effect of the fear. And it will never bother you again.
Thanks for the links, I will have to look at them later. Must go to a 7:30 meeting and I have forgotten whether it's a faculty meeting or grade level! Aaah!
Here's my question: Is it absolutely essential to sit the same way every single time? Or can I change it each day by my mood, as long as I commit to sitting every day?
Omg, you don't know how much these videos you linked to have helped me lately with my posture. I still have much work to do with my back posture, but the hips are so much more limber now that I do these exercises every day. I don't get numbness on my legs anymore and I am A LOT more comfortable during my sessions now.
Thanks a lot GuyC!
I have experience back pain and find when I work out and use many of those back muscles that rarely or never get used are strong...
most Back muscles are used for pulling, where the chest is for pushing... How often do we pull stuff? eh... not often enough, unless you are on a tug of war team somewhere...
Here is a list of good exercises to strengthen your back:
http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/BackWt.html
Be carefull of the lower back... at least with me it is my weakest link... my Achilles heel... I do a seated row that activates lower back muscles as stabilizer and synergistic muscles but targets the Delts... My Delts are way stronger than my lower back so a lot of the time when I work out hard, because my Delts can take it, I end up injuring my lower back which just can't keep up... The lower back doesn't tell you usually until the next day either... So I have to drop my Delt ego and lighten it up so that my lower back slowly gets stronger first...
Anyways, its a possible avenue for you to explore... there are also isometric exercises that might help:
http://www.ab-core-and-stomach-exercises.com/isometric-exercises.html (3rd one, reverse plank)
also;
http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/shenandoah/OBB/Back.html
Hope this helps
I'm also going to check out those videos right now that GuyC put up.
"back pain" can be a little vague as the back is a large area and the pain can be caused by one small thing or a large number of things.
To improve back muscles, as well as the exercises already given, I'd try this one; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8szJuzPt-sg
Make sure you stretch out your chest and stomach (not just your back) because the core muscles at the front have become tight due to slouching.
It's important, after meditating to stretch out and loosen your muscles, due to the pressure they are under from sitting up correctly.
Much of the pain might be due to over compensating as well, so it's good to get someone to help you with your posture.
Brother Bob's post was excellent, and what he was refering to is the tilt of the hips. If you are sat on a cushion, make sure your hips are on a higher level than your knees. This will allow your hips to naturally tilt or "roll" forward, giving you that nice natural curve to the lower spin, which will ease any pain in the lower to middle of the back. If you sit with your legs level, or worse, with your knees higher than your hips (eep) you are putting loads of pressure on your spine (discs)
Here are some examples;
This is good;
This is bad;
This is an illustration of the hip being rolled badly when sat down;
You back pain might also be from either leaning forward or leaning back too much. Less than an inch can cause problems. Pulling your shoulders forward or backwards might also cause a problem. Tilting your head too much might also cause problems.
As for sitting; if you can't sit on a zafu try kneeling with a cushion between your ankles and bum to take some pressure off your knees and ankles. Or you could try using a meditation bench. If you are sitting, try to remember to have your knees lower than your hips.
It took me nearly three years to correct my posture, as I used to slouch a LOT! A combination of sitting correctly, standing correctly, exercising, stretching, tai chi and physical theropy has done wonders. It hurt a lot at first but it was worth it in the end.
Nios.
Actually, I just sent a request out to my mother to see if she, or someone she knows, can make me a Zafu and a Zabuton... Fingers crossed...
http://pemadesign.com/products.asp?cat=1
Making your own can be a good thing as you can experiment with different hights, and different softness of fillings. I prefer a pretty solid zafu myself. It's also cheaper to make your own
Nios.
PS. Here's some instructions http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/actives/stool.htm
http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/lifestyl/medi/zafu.htm
The Zafu design is what I found and sent to my mother to see if it could be made...
Thanks again...
Enjoy
Okay, exercise has it's place and is a good energy mover. I have experience back pain, and breathe through it. One must remember the millliia we have denied our true nature. Yes, there may be damage which should be looked at, but how many years have we spent tying that knot thinking we were soid rather than free flowing energy. Let your RNA do it's job, or whatever it is I'm no doctor. I do know that by tying into the energy flow, releasing of the baggage of my past has led to vast improvements. Feel the feelings, think the thought, but flow just be one with the fact that you are aware you are feeling again and again and again....
Would that be okay?
At least for now, until I can get my back/muscles to get used to it?
Let me guess... You feel as if they set you up to have to come back again and again, right?
For a long while I was stubburn about working to sit in the "correct" posture" even though my Lama had told me that it was not needed. Now I sit in a chair and my meditation has inproved.