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The six elements
Deshy
Veteran
I read that the Buddha talked about six elements: earth, wind, fire, water, space & consciousness
Why did he dump consciousness into that list? As consciousness is something that arises based in the six sense bases I feel like it doesn't match the rest of the items in the list. I don't get it
Why did he dump consciousness into that list? As consciousness is something that arises based in the six sense bases I feel like it doesn't match the rest of the items in the list. I don't get it
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Check out MN 115.
Most ancients would not have regarded consciousness as an element but instead as a soul, self, personality or something 'divine' or 'eternal' or 'permanent stream'.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.062.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.042-049x.irel.html#iti-044
Realising all is merely elements is the easy way, a short cut.
As the Heart Sutra states 'form is void, void is form...etc'.
Elements = Not-Self
Void = Not-Self
Elements = Void
Void = Elements
All = Not-Self
All = Nature
Nature = Not-Self
Nature = Nature
The first four correspond respectively to physical states of solid, liquid, heat and gas,. Space is interpreted as integrating and harmonizing the other four elements.
<DT>The concept of the six elements is used notably by Mahayana Esoteric Buddhism ( refers to East Asian Buddhism of Shingon and Tendai , transmitted to East Asia in ~716ce by Shubhakarasimha, Vajrabodhi and Amoghavajra, a more original form of Vajrayana ) . As in such school of teaching maintains that the six elements of Mahavairochana Buddha and those of ordinary people mutually interfuse and that the six elements themselves interpenetrate without obstruction and are always united.
</DT></DL>
The elements from a Tibetan Buddhist point of view :
".....In short, it is from mind, which embodies the 5 elemental qualities, that the physical body develops. The physical body itself is imbued with these qualities, and it is because of this mind/body complex that we perceive the outside world - which in turn is composed of the 5 elemental qualities of earth, water, fire, air, and space. "
(The Dharma - Kalu Rinpoche)
"Earth, air, fire, water and space are the 5 elements of the the external world. They are manifested internally as five qualities: solid, fluid, heat, movement and pressure (space)."
(Awakening The Sleeping Buddha - The 12th Tai Situpa)
"For consciousness to arise, certain conditions must come into place. For humans these conditions are the body with its nervous system and its accompanying subtle energy systems, the latter not yet acknowledged by neuroscience. The factors all manifest when the five great elements come together." ( earth, air, fire, water and space)
(Living, Dreaming, Dying - Practical wisdom from the Tibetan Book of the Dead -Rob Nairn)
.
From the perspective of advance Mahayana , both Nirvana and Samsara has the same Dharma nature ( element as your term ) , both are empty in nature , hence there are non duality in them fundamentally.
The different is merely like a raw green banana and the yellow riped bananan, the former is relatively not much value to eat , but the later is certainly valuable for our healthy consumsion.
another example commonly used to explain this principle is the raw carbon and the polished diamond gem , both are in fact fundamentally build up of the same elements structure.
Likewise , when the uncultivated mind are deluded ( tained / clouded by their own fundamental darkness / illusions ) they are the common mortal, but when their mind are awakened to the true aspect of all phenomena ( reality ) ( actualized / manifested their fundamental budhi nature ) they are known as the buddha.
that's why all living beings has the noble bodi quality known as the Buddha nature - which is pure and same with the Thus Come One. Hence all living beings are worth to be respected . That is the basis of Buddhist humanity .
With great respect _/\_
First you said the teaching of the elements was not even Buddhist.
Let me remind you.
Sorry, that was not the answer I was looking for.
I asked a simple question. Where does Nibbana fit within the six elements?
Is it earth, wind, fire, water, space or consciousness?
Please choose one of the six.
Thank you.
The Buddha himself did not teach thus. To the Buddha, samsara is made from the ignorance element, sensuality element, ill-will element and so forth. Nibbana is the Nibbana element as follows:
A rock is made from earth element, mind is made from the mind element and Nibbana is made from the Nibbana element. Each is made from a different nature however they all share one characteristic, namely, empty of self. MN 62 states:
Not really. Their structure is different. We can compare to mud and an earthenware cup. Mud has more water element than the cup. The cup has more fire element than the mud. However, each is empty of self.
Whilst samsara is inherently empty of self nature, outwardly it is not. Outwardly, samsara is the manifestation of self-view, which is why samsara is the element of dukkha rather than the element of Nibbana.
There is no need to cry out for mercy when you have spent the weekend misrepresenting the Pali suttas and as a result been corrected in debate.
Your kamma, you have reaped yourself.
Best to refrain from making false claims against the Theravada, such as there is no here & now Nibbana in Theravada.
:buck:
The teaching here about the six elements precising is to explain what is Dharma nature is about ? both Nirvana and Samsara are equal in the plane of absolute truth, even earthly desires and enlightenment are equal in the plane of absolute truth .
Ok to entertain you on your level of wisdom if you yet understand, you ask where nirvana fix in the six elements, the obvious answer would in all the six elements .
Such teaching is not to teaching according to your desire answer looking for ( as this would mean teaching to the level of capacity of the Nikayan ), it is the teaching according top the enlightened wisdom of the Buddha in Mahayana perspective , there is no compromise to degrade it lower to the capacity of the audience.
In fact, in esoteric teaching they even not spell it out directly, but allow the practitioners to comtemplate any different of these six elements between the objective phenomena and their own subjective self . Once they realised and experienced it first hand on this non-duality nature - they are close to their Buddhahood
No - it is according to the world of Mahayana Buddhism, teachings such as Tientai, Tendai, Nichiren, Shingon, Huayan , Vajrayana , Mind-Only , Middleway are considered as Advance Mahayana , recognise in canon, treatises, doctrines and imperial courts in historically across culture and lands. The eminence monks are bestowed with title of ' Great Dharma teachers ' by the imperial courts, and those eminence teachers also bestowed Bodhisattva precepts to the emperor / king , the royal families and the high ministers of the those lands.
There's a misunderstanding here due to terminology. When the question was first asked, I understood the term element to be referring to the four great elements (mahabuta): air, fire, earth, and water. Some Indian philospohical systems do include space and consciousness in this list of elements, which made me think that the questioner had come across one such list.
Then I was referred to a Pali sutta, which has several lists of "elements". I asked which term was being translated as element and was told "dhatu." So I replied that the term referred to the six sense objects, six sense bases, and six mental faculties that perceive them.
Now you are saying that element refers to everything without exception. I think you are using the term element to translate dharma (dhamma), which in one sense of the term, does just that.
Obviously the term element can and has been used to translate several different Sanskrit and Pali terms. If you tell me the Sanskrit or Pali, I can give you the sense of the term. No great trick there, I have a translation of the Abhidharmakosha on my bookshelf and I can look it up. But without knowing what term was translated, it's a bit of a guessing game.
first, this is a simile to help people to undersand better
second, both neutral carbon ( includes coal or charcoal) and diamond are still the element of Carbon ( atomic number 6, symbol C )
even daimond or graphite have it's atomic structure different to coal, they are fundamentally carbon compounds
third , if you want to used the mud & earthenware example, then you need to use all the six elements ( includes water, space, heat etc ) to be more complete
fourth, you should understand Nikaya teaching is a Duality teaching ( here is Samsara with the three marks of impermanence, suffering, and selflessness and there is Nirvana which is free of suffering , liberation , bliss etc ) , and dharma although without any selfhood ( phenomena , incliding five aggregates ) but they are real ( unlike Mahayana - both self and phenomena are empty in nature , hence they are non-duality ) .
you need not to join the dance with Mahayana on the concepts of non-duality
If you took the time to read MN 115, the Buddha ends the opening part of the discourse by summarising all elements into two, namely, the conditioned elements and the one unconditioned element.
Now, you said "the six constituent elements of all things in the universe, both material and spiritual" and responding question was: "Where does Nibbana sit within the six elements?"
Try again, without reverting to monkey chatter.
But the principle is essentially the same.
:smilec:
DD: please understand both Nikayan and Mahayana are usiing two different set of Buddhist doctrine from each of their approach
You cannot use your Nikayan understanding to refute the Mahayana teaching, because Mahayana teaching is never being a subset of Nikayan ( especially Theravada )
- it is ready laughtable if you inclined to has such thinking
Mahayana has it own set of Buddhist basis, and they have their own Nikayan fundamental from it root in Agama canon & Abiddharma that derived from Mahāsāṃghika
Do not think that Theravada is the ' oldest school ' or any 'authority' as it proclaimed , it was not recognised by Mahayana counterpart at all , since all the teaching of Agama & Mahāsāṃghika are still within the east asian canon. And the oldest surviving relics as evidents of scriptures are certainly not Theravadian ( only streched to 8ce ) ; scholars compares Agama and others older scriptures do understands that the Pali canon have made many version of amentment till the 8 ce version in their teachings actually
if you want to learn some non-duality from Mahayana , we are happy to share, but please come and learn with a humble mind .
Please go and read 'Dhamma and Non-duality' by Bhikkhu Bodhi, he clearly stated that both Theravadain and Mahayana have two different system approach to this.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_27.html
You are saying Pol Pot was the same as the Buddha?
You are saying a human being with suicidal tendencies due to deep inner pain has the same mental state as a human being that has found peace & rest of mind by taking refuge in the Buddha-Dhamma?
The suttas state dhamma and adhamma are not the same. The suttas state dhamma leads to happiness whilst adhamma leads to the pits of hell.
My interpretation of what you appear to be saying is if I use heavy drugs like ecstacy, cocaine or heroin, those earthly desires are the same as Nibbana.
If I have earthly desires such as to murder those I hate, such as occurred recently in Nigeria, with one tribe butchering another tribe, that is the same as Nibbana?
There is a difference between milk and butter just as there is a difference between buddha nature and an actual buddha.
Just made some cheese soup. All I could think of was food.
If I observe human beings murdering eachother, I can view that as emptiness.
But a Bodhisatva does not view the human world is such a voyeuristic Hinayana manner.
A Bodhisatva sees with empathy, looking from within rather than from without.
Externally, the world is empty. But internally, all things are not empty but, instead, often have suffering that needs to be cured.
In brief, Mahayana appears to have little to contribute to the subject of the elements thus best refrain from discursiveness.
The Buddha said: "One stuck in the mud cannot pull another out of the mud".
DD is interested in the elements.
For example, when DD wishes to build a house, they order some earth bricks.
When DD wishes for some peace, they consider: "Where can Nibbana be found?"
Can Nibbana be found in earthly desires such as recreational drug use?
Or is Nibbana found in the abandoning greed, hatred and especially delusion & confusion?
Such simplicity question arise because you yet to ready understand the core of non-duality teaching . If you went into the depth of such Mahayana teaching - you can certain not only understand it theorically, but experienced it first hand in the advance cultivation
your style of simplicity question is just like to compare petro and soda water , claimed that since they are all liquid why they are not interchangable ?
any chemistry students would answer this easily .
From Mahayana perspective , take the most evil person in Buddha Dharma for example - Devadatta who siad to fell into hell alive. In the Mahayana sutra the Buddha however proclaimed that in the future life of Devadatta will attain enlightenment as a Buddha named Heavenly King ( the pali canon has another version that in future live Devadatta will become an Arhat )
Also in Mahayan sutra, the Buddha revealed that in the past existence of Devadatta was actually a teacher ( known as Asita ) for the Buddha himself,
So even Devadatta in his future live will become a Buddha, why not for you and Pol Pot?
But the current reality is that Theravada is about 35% and Mahayana is 65% in Buddhist population.
It is certainly OK for Mahayana to seperate as totally different religious entity from Theravada. By then Mahayana still a major world religion, but then Theravada might downgraded similiar to Jain as a regional religion only
the buddha said one stuck in the mud cannot pull another out of the mud.
non-duality is concentration or Advaita
humility is a form of ego delusion just as your posts are mostly confusion
what i could learn from them is delusion and confusion
you have spent the last three days being refuted, with your contradictory & confused posts, yet you wish to offer to be your refutors teacher
please...
:eek2:
the most populist religion in the world is Islam I think
let us all become Muslims
www.newmuslim.com/forum
in the Bible, in the desert, Satan or Mara offered Jesus the whole world
of course, even Jesus was wise enough to decline Mara's offer
:eek:
one day as your culitvation advance , you can enter more advance dharma gate more naturally , best wishes
they fall back on gurus, popularity, TV commercials, mass media, etc
Richard Gere & Tina Turner are Buddhists
but...Michael Jackson converted to Islam, didn't he????
:banghead:
christianity is BIGGER than islam
another ceremony to go through and more rituals to learn
:skeptical
Not the core of the issue here is mutual respect on each approach of Buddha Dharma
first , that's understanding we do not have any authority over one another , as each derived with their different set of Buddhist canon and doctrines
second, we can only share, said from the perspective of Nikaya/Theravada/Mahayana, so and so
if the other branch wanted to learn something - fine, else just keep silence
your "smiles" have the scent of egoism and condescending duality
trying praying for me
Jinzang and your posts made that very clear
But in reality, the Thread has devolved into a sectarian dick-measuring contest full of belittling and arrogance.
We can only share from our personal perspective. There is no single "Theravada" or "Mahayana" perspective. It's best to remember that, as well.
For me, your posts on various threads over the last three days have not been so grounded.
So tell me, where exactly do all these Mahayana Buddhists live?
There are alot of people in Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos & Sri Lanka.
Is the population in these five countries more numerous than Dharamsala and Hollywood?
Mahayana Buddhism is basically extinct in Japan & China so where are all the Mahayana Buddhists? Vietnam? Korea? Taiwan?
Or are they all the NKT followers in the UK?