Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
I can not figure out what your conveying. It is probably too subtle for me. I know of recollecting and know what it does to the mind. But it passes like all things pass. What i was trying to convey is what is left is "awareness" if that is the convention we are going to use for that which doesn't change. This seems like a Hindu type concept, but much of what Buddhist scriptures have to say are based on Hindu principles. Like is said, i am not that good at the finer reasoning points of Buddhist scholars. I rely on practice, which isn't very philosophical. If it doesn't work, then don't use it. I have been seriously on this path for well over 20 years so i am a bit stuck in my ways, and getting on in years doesn't lend it self to a lot of ideas i went over and decided 10 years ago. Sorry i can not equal the discussion you have to offer, but i really do not understand what you are conveying.
...but much of what Buddhist scriptures have to say are based on Hindu principles.
Much of what S9 has to say is based on Hindu principles but the Buddhist scriptures, I doubt that.
Like is said, i am not that good at the finer reasoning points of Buddhist scholars. I rely on practice...
I am quoting the Buddha's practice. It is more correct to say your posts are relying on your practice and my posts are relying on the Buddha's practice.
What makes you think what I posted is philosophical, just because you do not understand it?
...i really do not understand what you are conveying.
Then merely continue your Hindu discussion with S9 about awareness without an object and awareness without a condition sustaining it.
You posted while i was. I mentioned the Hindu influences that have crept into Buddhist practice. I can understand a little bit better where you are coming from with this last post. You seem to be well acquainted with Buddhist scripture. It does help to throw out the unpractical and hone ones' practice. Like i said i just don't read the stuff any more, so i think i am in over my head on this one. I can not decipher the fine distinctions. That's cool , i have plenty to do, besides muddling up a scholarly discussion.
Please describe how there can be awareness without an object?
Even if aware of awareness itself, that awareness is an object of awareness plus there is generally some kind of feeling there as an object of awareness.
Regarding S9, he appears to referring to awareness independent of a sense organ and the body.
S9 appears to be saying the body is in awareness rather than awareness is in the body.
Personally, I would say both.
I would say cognitively, the body is in awareness but meta-physically, awareness is in the body (dependant upon brain & neurological function).
Ok, i can appreciate the distinction of mind, and awareness. What i have practiced is allowing awareness to be.
S9: I might have worded what I think you are saying, slightly differently. If I am, in fact, understanding you correctly. : ^ )
First of all, the whole idea of “allowing” Awareness sounds to me like you are standing in the mind. (Although I have the feeling that you are not.)
I, on the other hand, would say that I (Being Awareness) “allow” the mind to do its little dance. (This is 180 degrees different.)
The reason why I have worded in such a way is that, by doing so I am saying clearly that I am not the mind. I am Awareness, and mind is like a passing dream playing before my eyes.
When the mind moves i can see that it is mind, the sixth sense. If this is the distinction then i agree.
S9: Yes, because the mind is capable of being self reflective, it is ‘conscious of’ itself as a mind object. Some call this the Witness (or your “watcher”).
But at the very same time, Awareness is aware of Awareness as Awareness, simply by Being Awareness. This Awareness is intrinsic. Awareness cannot become an object. You can only BE Awareness.
What is Awareness? Awareness is vitally alive and full of Awareness. Yet, at the same time, it is completely empty of all mind objects.
It would seem that our practice is to allow this unchanging awareness to be the guiding (no words - not a noun or adverb - or adjective ) but i will say "awareness of awareness."
S9: Indeed, this is true. I believe that this is what the Buddha meant by ‘Right View.” When you are Aware of Awareness, it is a great clarifier. You also know what you are NOT.
But then that includes a watcher so what can you say but "practicing living in awareness" not mental emptiness which can definitely change and is in constant flux.
S9: Some call this contemplation. It is in knowing Awareness directly that the illusions supported by the mind begin to melt away.
It is not about freedom, or escape....it is about non-attachment and giving up the delusion that mind can be free. Remember the statement that Nirvana means something like "the flame being blown out", it exists no more.
Quote: "Nirvana is, but there is no one that enters in."
Karma, we all have it.
S9: I am not sure that I complete understand Karma. To me it seems like just one more ingredient in an ongoing dream story…insubstantial.
In fact i think that clinging is a basic part of our original nature. Without it we would waste away.
S9: Are you saying that our original nature is this physical being?
I am not an expert in Buddhist philosophy and i find the fine distinctions hard to grasp.
S9: It takes a while for the mind to disentangle itself from the many assumptions, and habits of mind. These wrongful ideas can often blind us to what is right there in front of us all the time.
I do not read anymore Buddhist literature, i did for about 12 years when i started the journey of practicing Buddhism. I much prefer practice....mind empty, heart open, body dancing.
S9: I love to read about this stuff. Even when I can see what the people are saying is wrong, I like to correct it in my mind. I also enjoy seeing all of the various ways that people can explain the same things. This may be more characteristic of the way that my mind works than any necessity, esp. now that I know the punch line. ; ^ )
Writing to me is an act of contemplation. I look right at Awareness, and then answer from there.
J: Your idea of an object is just thinking. Mind and body interpenetrate. The boundary to yourself is fabricated by your mind.
S9: More recently the medical establishment has come to see the mind and body as at least in correspondence, and maybe even interpenetrating as you say. I have gone a bit further, and see the body as just a projection of the mind, a la Philosophical Idealism. Yet on looking deeper still, I see the body/mind as just dream stuff within Awareness.
Mind you: I am not describing Awareness as just one more name for brain consciousness. I am using two different words to emphasize that they are NOT identical, but seem to be quite different in characteristics.
So what I am doing is breaking the mind, the body, and Awareness into three separate pieces in order to understand them in some detail, and where they each fit into this matrix that we call human understanding, because obviously they do display some differences when look at by the mind, and in this way.
This is done much like you might dissect a frog, in order to understand more completely, what exactly a frog is beneath its more apparent out coating, called skin. In this same way, we want to understand the truth of what is actually going on, and who we are, under the skin of our present assumptions or illusions.
The body seems to be more material and solid. But this has multiple layers. On close examination we find our bodies seem to be mostly water. The physicists go on to tell us that on looking even deeper we are made up mostly of empty space. The mind is far less material, more of a cloudlike event, and being in flux is constantly coming and going.
Awareness, which appears to the mind to be only empty and being empty of thoughts that is, displays no motion whatsoever. (What would move, and where would it move to?) Awareness simply seems to be Ever Present and completely satisfied in ‘Being’ what it is, but to stay right where it is. (It is dissatisfaction that causes desire, and desire that moves us.)
Is there something about what you said that I am just not getting? I would appreciate you pointing this out to me, as this is how we aid each other to grow in understanding.
: ^ )
I am quoting the Buddha's practice. It is more correct to say your posts are relying on your practice and my posts are relying on the Buddha's practice.
S9: Somewhere along the line, you got the idea that by studying the sutras, you could speak for the Buddha.
You can’t!
Because, in the end, you only speak of what you believe the Buddha was saying.
You are only speaking from your OWN practice, just like everyone else here.
That is the real truth about your words. : ^ (
Sorry to have to remind you of this,
Welcome to reality, ; ^ )
S9
What is your understanding of equanimity? What does equanimity mean to you?
Do you feel you have achieved it in your life?
I'm especially interested in hearing people's personal experience and views (not so much suttas, doctrinal discussions, debates, etc.).
Thanks for sharing!
My understanding of equanimity = Very deep, maybe bottomless calm and comfort, where the impulse to react dies as it tries to arise - where any feeling that arises is viewed with a mild interest - all with a smile:)
My understanding of equanimity = Very deep, maybe bottomless calm and comfort, where the impulse to react dies as it tries to arise - where any feeling that arises is viewed with a mild interest - all with a smile:)
Achieved it?...........very occasionally:(
Regards
Widfola
Thank you, Widfola!
You're the only person here who is actually discussing the subject of the thread.
when we can stay with the knowledge we gained that everything is our own mind creation then our mind state does not change with eight worldly winds like fame or shame, gain or loss, etc
when we can stay with the knowledge we gained that everything is our own mind creation then our mind state does not change with eight worldly winds like fame or shame, gain or loss, etc
such a mind state can be called equanimity
I agree!
Equanimity is about reaching a place where you're not swayed by either "good" or "bad," positive or negative, praise or blame. It's being able to stand firm in the midst of storms of emotion, without getting blown off-course.
Equanimity is a powerful level of being, which few people seem to achieve; and yet, it's accessible to us all, through the continuous practice of meditation.
Z: Equanimity is about reaching a place where you're not swayed by either "good" or "bad," positive or negative, praise or blame. It's being able to stand firm in the midst of storms of emotion, without getting blown off-course.
S9: I am thinking that when investigating into what equanimity actually is, it is important to understand that equanimity isn’t something that we actually do, or something that we hold onto once we have found it, which is a kind/of doing.
Equanimity is rather a State (attitude?) beyond doing, or even preference. It is neutral or maybe the in/between, (“the Middle Way” ?) with the two poles of good and bad (all duality) not touching it.
Z: Equanimity is a powerful level of being, which few people seem to achieve.
S9: I am under the impression that equanimity is not a mind object, and trying to achieve it with the mind is probably an impossibility. I think that equanimity is trans-mind, (outside of mind) or the state where you finally see that you, in fact, are not the mind or one of her objects. In this case activity continues to go on, both physical and mental, but you fully realize, “This is not mine” and “This is not me.“
Like the Buddha, you ‘Wake Up’ to the fact that all of the mind’s landscapes, including the players within the mind, (ego me) is but a temporary dream.
I think the equanimity that we find within the mind itself is only a temporary reflection of the Real Equanimity. This Real State of Equanimity is the equivalent to what some call Enlightenment or Liberation.
What is your understanding of equanimity? What does equanimity mean to you?
Do you feel you have achieved it in your life?
I'm especially interested in hearing people's personal experience and views (not so much suttas, doctrinal discussions, debates, etc.).
Thanks for sharing!
Ok in poetic terms.
Equanimity is not an attribute of a transcendent thing, it is a quality of non-identification with body, mind, and environment so that it all unfolds of its own accord. Everthing called "I-me" belongs to that continuum, and it has the quality of aloneness. There is no "I" for it to strike against or impinge.
This Equinimity is present at times, and there is more now than before, but the default mode is still a habitual of identification with body and mind and therefore limited equinimity at best. When certain karnic buttons get pushed there is no equinimity. So practice goes on, turning the tanker of habit energy.
Don’t you think that Equanimity is a “Way of Being” that hovers outside of all that our ego constructs constantly, so that like you have said, so well, our Equanimity cannot be harmed?
Such a “Way of Being” (Equanimity) transcends both fear and suffering. Because of this, all of finite life can be approach as, and all that happens can be considered as, “This is not me,” and “This is not mine”, which Is 'Transcendence' spelled backwards. ; ^ )
In other words, Transcencence and Equanimity mirror each other, and yet are really One. It is only our mind's habit of separating and calling all of the qualities of Transcendence by different names. But like a rose that is both red and fragrant, these qualities are actually just 'One' rose-ness.
R: This Equanimity is present at times, and there is more now than before, but the default mode is still a habitual of identification with body and mind and therefore limited equanimity at best.
S9: Yes, sometimes I do believe that we get a taste of this ‘State of Being,’ called “Equanimity” or “Liberation,” what some have referred to as a ‘Glimpse.’ Yet, if we are still (in some dark corner of our psyche) continue to identifying with something outside of this “Blessed State,” we will surely slip back into the dream of ‘Me’ and ‘Mine.’
This is a little like in the early morning, when you wake temporarily, only to slip back into sleep again, and again. Yet, gratefully, when these events begin to manifest in our life, we can be confident that ‘Full Waking’ cannot be far behind. : ^ )
I would like to point out that, very often, people on the path equate Equanimity with a form of mental doing, which has been called "Quietism." But, "Quietism" only mimic Equanimity, and cannot be maintained indefinitely like any thing within the mind.
I believe that Equanimity blooms, naturally, only when ‘Clear Sight’ has made it possibly for all of our illusion to drop away. Equanimity is not something that can be forced or manufactured intellectually, one concept at a time.
I think that one of the most difficult things for us to understand, is how to stop, step away, and just let things be. We always have our fingers in the stew.
; ^ )
And yet, stepping away and dis-identifying, IS Freedom from attachment.
Don’t you think that Equanimity is a “Way of Being” that hovers outside of all that our ego constructs constantly, so that like you have said, so well, our Equanimity cannot be harmed?
Such a “Way of Being” (Equanimity) transcends both fear and suffering. Because of this, all of finite life can be approach as, and all that happens can be considered as, “This is not me,” and “This is not mine”, which Is 'Transcendence' spelled backwards. ; ^ )
In other words, Transcencence and Equanimity mirror each other, and yet are really One. It is only our mind's habit of separating and calling all of the qualities of Transcendence by different names. But like a rose that is both red and fragrant, these qualities are actually just 'One' rose-ness.
R: This Equanimity is present at times, and there is more now than before, but the default mode is still a habitual of identification with body and mind and therefore limited equanimity at best.
S9: Yes, sometimes I do believe that we get a taste of this ‘State of Being,’ called “Equanimity” or “Liberation,” what some have referred to as a ‘Glimpse.’ Yet, if we are still (in some dark corner of our psyche) continue to identifying with something outside of this “Blessed State,” we will surely slip back into the dream of ‘Me’ and ‘Mine.’
This is a little like in the early morning, when you wake temporarily, only to slip back into sleep again, and again. Yet, gratefully, when these events begin to manifest in our life, we can be confident that ‘Full Waking’ cannot be far behind. : ^ )
Respectfully,
S9
I have found that there are times when there is no dream, only awakeness and perfect peace, freedom, equinimity, and spontaneous action. There are times when there is dreaming, but it does not completely delude, and there is partial awakeness, freedom, and a deeper equinimity. Then there are times, less so now but still common, when the dream takes over completely, at least for a while. When this happens that basic freedom and equinimity not experienced at all. Not being the lived experience of the moment, freedom and equinimity are, in that moment, an ideal. It is an ideal that inspires, but it is not lived experience. Perhaps a perfectly Enlightened person is never without equinimity all time time, but I am not perfectly Enlightened. I have had enough practice to know suffering from not-suffering, and am secure in the path, but identification with body and mind is deeply rooted, and practice goes on.
This is where my practice is at, can't say for anyone else.
R: I have found that there are times when there is no dream, only awakeness and perfect peace, freedom, equanimity, and spontaneous action.
S9: I take it from the use of “spontaneous action,” that you are speaking about life outside of meditation, am I correct to assume this? If that is the case, you have certainly developed some separation. I am happy for you. : ^ )
I wonder however if you have found this Awake-ness, why when the mind wonders off, and further tells you that it is you that wondered off, you believe the mind? Do you think that perhaps it is because you believe that the mind is in charge, and must hold this awake-ness?
The reason that I ask this is because, I have found that the Awake-ness is Always Present, and once you become more familiar with it, and know where to look, you will also see this. It is not mind dependent.
S9: I take it from the use of “spontaneous action,” that you are speaking about life outside of meditation, am I correct to assume this? If that is the case, you have certainly developed some separation. I am happy for you. S9
There is the unobstructed quality I described in the earlier post. It is not continuous, there are moments of eclipse.
I wonder however if you have found this Awake-ness, why when the mind wonders off, and further tells you that it is you that wondered off, you believe the mind? Do you think that perhaps it is because you believe that the mind is in charge, and must hold this awake-ness?S9
Most of the time I dont believe the story, but sometimes under certain circumstanced there is a lapse. It may be a case of old deep conditioning. For instance not long ago my son was kicked in the groin at school because he has mild tourettes, and the other kids were amused. By kicking him in the groin his anxiety and fear made his tourettes worsen to the delight of the bullies. On being called to the school there were moments when the situation, the story, was ....compelling, for me. so much so that equinimity did not come easy. This is very different than say buying fruit at the market and walking slowly home.
The reason that I ask this is because, I have found that the Awake-ness is Always Present, and once you become more familiar with it, and know where to look, you will also see this. It is not mind dependent.
S9
In my experience there are times when awakeness lapses . With practice the karmic triggers that would close things up before do not close things up as easily now.. "Awakeness" when it is truly clear isnt acknowledged as such, There is no checking back,,,"yes I am awake". Complete eclipse or seeming eclipse rarely occurs now.
Once again this is my experience, it may be different for you.
R: There is the unobstructed quality I described in the earlier post. It is not continuous; there are moments of eclipse.
S9: If there are moments of eclipse, it is "proof in the pudding" that you are trying to hold it in the mind, out of old habits. It is not so much that we don’t get actual glimpses of our Buddha Nature directly. It is more that we try to change that glimpse into a mind object. So that when we lose the mind object, we are confused and think that what we glimpsed has also gone away. I’ve, “Been there/done that.”
It is similar to another place many of us find our self on the path, me too at one time, when we think that one more sentence or concept is going to come along and put everything magically into its place. Since Ultimate Truth is not a mind object, neither is one more sentence/concept going to be our savior, nor is the mind ever going to be so strong that it can hold onto Ultimate Truth as a mind object indefinitely. We have to discover that which is "Effortless."
R: Most of the time I don’t believe the story, but sometimes under certain (extreme) circumstanced there is a lapse. It may be a case of old deep conditioning.
S9: I think that is perfectly natural, in extreme circumstances our monkey mind will be pulled away completely into emotional reaction. This is not a problem, because it is wisdom to understand that our mind follows the strongest stimulation, which is perhaps merely a survival mechanism. But, when things quiet down to a dull roar, we take our seat once more in our higher wisdom, and we can look directly at our Buddha Nature.
We are not trying to make our mind unresponsive, but rather come with time to understand thoughts and concepts are not us. Yes, we will have personal troubles and the pain, or even worse, be forced to stand by hopelessly as someone we love has troubles and pain, which we cannot prevent or alleviate. This is the lay of the land.
But, we need not add suffering to that equation if we practice wisdom mind, and understand that our suffering will in no way relieve another’s pain or troubles.
Mind itself does not become Awake, it just feels ease, and definitely “knows of” Awake-ness. Otherwise Buddha would not have said, “I am Awake.” He would has said, “ I am not suffering.” I don’t think that Buddha had any trouble finding the right words to explain.
R: There is the unobstructed quality I described in the earlier post. It is not continuous; there are moments of eclipse.
S9: If there are moments of eclipse, it is "proof in the pudding" that you are trying to hold it in the mind, out of old habits. It is not so much that we don’t get actual glimpses of our Buddha Nature directly. It is more that we try to change that glimpse into a mind object. So that when we lose the mind object, we are confused and think that what we glimpsed has also gone away. I’ve, “Been there/done that.”
It is similar to another place many of us find our self on the path, me too at one time, when we think that one more sentence or concept is going to come along and put everything magically into its place. Since Ultimate Truth is not a mind object, neither is one more sentence/concept going to be our savior, nor is the mind ever going to be so strong that it can hold onto Ultimate Truth as a mind object indefinitely. We have to discover that which is "Effortless."
R: Most of the time I don’t believe the story, but sometimes under certain (extreme) circumstanced there is a lapse. It may be a case of old deep conditioning.
S9: I think that is perfectly natural, in extreme circumstances our monkey mind will be pulled away completely into emotional reaction. This is not a problem, because it is wisdom to understand that our mind follows the strongest stimulation, which is perhaps merely a survival mechanism. But, when things quiet down to a dull roar, we take our seat once more in our higher wisdom, and we can look directly at our Buddha Nature.
We are not trying to make our mind unresponsive, but rather come with time to understand thoughts and concepts are not us. Yes, we will have personal troubles and the pain, or even worse, be forced to stand by hopelessly as someone we love has troubles and pain, which we cannot prevent or alleviate. This is the lay of the land.
But, we need not add suffering to that equation if we practice wisdom mind, and understand that our suffering will in no way relieve another’s pain or troubles.
Mind itself does not become Awake, it just feels ease, and definitely “knows of” Awake-ness. Otherwise Buddha would not have said, “I am Awake.” He would has said, “ I am not suffering.” I don’t think that Buddha had any trouble finding the right words to explain.
Friendly Regards,
S9
To be honest I'm not sure where you are coming from at this point S9.
There are times when this body-mind, behaviour, ablity to truly hear, is open and clear. There are time when it is not. With practice times of openess increase and times of a close state decrease. The proof of the difference is in the behavior and how this behavior either benefits other or causes suffering to others. Like so many people on this forum have said, "There are no enlightened people, only enlightened actions". When caught up in identification with thoughts and feelings, the existence of a trancendent nature that is not caught-up, is not in that moment lived experience, and therefore a moot point. The focus is practice, returning to awareness of body and mind when things get caught up.
If you never get caught up at all, ever, never get sucked into identifiction with conditions. If you are truly grounded in 100% open awareness I00% of the time, then you are truly an enlightened being. I can't say whether this is so but it seems to me that what you describe is a bridging of the gap with an pervasive and subtle transcendent idea, and that you cannot see this idea because it is completely identified with it. This is just the thought that occurrs to me but I may be wrong.
In any case as, my half paralysed aunt Mary says "different strokes for different folks".
S9. I can only speak from this experience, from this direct experience. This is the only measure. I cannot speak for your experience, and can only measure what you say by this expeirence.
How can my judgment of your statements have traction? If we were just sitting together, no talk, we would be of one eye, no problem. The division is in the unpacking, or rather the packing.:)
Same is true with anyone here who is willing to let go of view at some point. But this is a really viewy medium, so around we go.
Of course you are correct in that we move along only as we clarify. No truth only enters us merely through our ears or eyes, but rather through our own personal experience, or insight, and that is the way that it should be.
However sometimes, if we look where someone is pointing, we too can see what they are seeing. Isn't that the reason that Satsang is such a wonderful device?
There is no such thing as "equanimity". It is a concept. There is only practice, and practice is living in this world without opinions. That is very difficult, especially on a forum such as this. Some people think they are supposed to lead others into the "truth" of what buddhism really is. Others ask all the questions, behaving as students to the ones' who think they have the right answer. There is no right ANSWER. tHERE IS ONLY YOUR OWN PRACTICE. tHOSE WHO ESPOUSE THAT THEY KNOW, ARE DELUDING THEMSELVES. pRACTICE, IS ALL YOU CAN REALLY DO. tHE SEARCH ENDS WHEN you PRACTICE ( OOPS CAPS LOCK ON-now off ) empty mind, open heart.
Of course the term equanimity is a label but for me it is most certainly a tangible state of mind. I would define it as being unmoved or unchanged despite external or internal events, but at the same time maintaining a level of awareness that is responsive, loving and compassionate. I feel like I am "floating" (I mean mentally not physically:crazy:) above the fray. For me this is a byproduct of of the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, the Three Seals of Existence, mindfulness, and compassion. I don't have this frame of mind most of the time but there were a couple of recent ER shifts where I was able to maintain this state through some very stressful and intensive shifts. I felt unfazed by these days. It was funny one nurse asked if I was on vacation (not from being lazy I was busting my tail) I took it as a compliment and felt maybe my understanding was just a little bit more skillfull and this was showing in my practice. In a way my work has become very good for my path as it is both physically, emotionally and mentally challengeing. It is working meditation for me.
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd
Comments
I am quoting the Buddha's practice. It is more correct to say your posts are relying on your practice and my posts are relying on the Buddha's practice.
What makes you think what I posted is philosophical, just because you do not understand it? Then merely continue your Hindu discussion with S9 about awareness without an object and awareness without a condition sustaining it.
Kind regards
DD
Forget the scholarship.
Please describe how there can be awareness without an object?
Even if aware of awareness itself, that awareness is an object of awareness plus there is generally some kind of feeling there as an object of awareness.
Regarding S9, he appears to referring to awareness independent of a sense organ and the body.
S9 appears to be saying the body is in awareness rather than awareness is in the body.
Personally, I would say both.
I would say cognitively, the body is in awareness but meta-physically, awareness is in the body (dependant upon brain & neurological function).
Kind regards
S9: I might have worded what I think you are saying, slightly differently. If I am, in fact, understanding you correctly. : ^ )
First of all, the whole idea of “allowing” Awareness sounds to me like you are standing in the mind. (Although I have the feeling that you are not.)
I, on the other hand, would say that I (Being Awareness) “allow” the mind to do its little dance. (This is 180 degrees different.)
The reason why I have worded in such a way is that, by doing so I am saying clearly that I am not the mind. I am Awareness, and mind is like a passing dream playing before my eyes.
S9: Yes, because the mind is capable of being self reflective, it is ‘conscious of’ itself as a mind object. Some call this the Witness (or your “watcher”).
But at the very same time, Awareness is aware of Awareness as Awareness, simply by Being Awareness. This Awareness is intrinsic. Awareness cannot become an object. You can only BE Awareness.
What is Awareness? Awareness is vitally alive and full of Awareness. Yet, at the same time, it is completely empty of all mind objects.
S9: Indeed, this is true. I believe that this is what the Buddha meant by ‘Right View.” When you are Aware of Awareness, it is a great clarifier. You also know what you are NOT.
S9: Some call this contemplation. It is in knowing Awareness directly that the illusions supported by the mind begin to melt away.
Quote: "Nirvana is, but there is no one that enters in."
S9: I am not sure that I complete understand Karma. To me it seems like just one more ingredient in an ongoing dream story…insubstantial.
S9: Are you saying that our original nature is this physical being?
S9: It takes a while for the mind to disentangle itself from the many assumptions, and habits of mind. These wrongful ideas can often blind us to what is right there in front of us all the time.
S9: I love to read about this stuff. Even when I can see what the people are saying is wrong, I like to correct it in my mind. I also enjoy seeing all of the various ways that people can explain the same things. This may be more characteristic of the way that my mind works than any necessity, esp. now that I know the punch line. ; ^ )
Writing to me is an act of contemplation. I look right at Awareness, and then answer from there.
Warm Regards,
S9
J: Your idea of an object is just thinking. Mind and body interpenetrate. The boundary to yourself is fabricated by your mind.
S9: More recently the medical establishment has come to see the mind and body as at least in correspondence, and maybe even interpenetrating as you say. I have gone a bit further, and see the body as just a projection of the mind, a la Philosophical Idealism. Yet on looking deeper still, I see the body/mind as just dream stuff within Awareness.
Mind you: I am not describing Awareness as just one more name for brain consciousness. I am using two different words to emphasize that they are NOT identical, but seem to be quite different in characteristics.
So what I am doing is breaking the mind, the body, and Awareness into three separate pieces in order to understand them in some detail, and where they each fit into this matrix that we call human understanding, because obviously they do display some differences when look at by the mind, and in this way.
This is done much like you might dissect a frog, in order to understand more completely, what exactly a frog is beneath its more apparent out coating, called skin. In this same way, we want to understand the truth of what is actually going on, and who we are, under the skin of our present assumptions or illusions.
The body seems to be more material and solid. But this has multiple layers. On close examination we find our bodies seem to be mostly water. The physicists go on to tell us that on looking even deeper we are made up mostly of empty space. The mind is far less material, more of a cloudlike event, and being in flux is constantly coming and going.
Awareness, which appears to the mind to be only empty and being empty of thoughts that is, displays no motion whatsoever. (What would move, and where would it move to?) Awareness simply seems to be Ever Present and completely satisfied in ‘Being’ what it is, but to stay right where it is. (It is dissatisfaction that causes desire, and desire that moves us.)
Is there something about what you said that I am just not getting? I would appreciate you pointing this out to me, as this is how we aid each other to grow in understanding.
: ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
S9: Somewhere along the line, you got the idea that by studying the sutras, you could speak for the Buddha.
You can’t!
Because, in the end, you only speak of what you believe the Buddha was saying.
You are only speaking from your OWN practice, just like everyone else here.
That is the real truth about your words. : ^ (
Sorry to have to remind you of this,
Welcome to reality, ; ^ )
S9
My understanding of equanimity = Very deep, maybe bottomless calm and comfort, where the impulse to react dies as it tries to arise - where any feeling that arises is viewed with a mild interest - all with a smile:)
Achieved it?...........very occasionally:(
Regards
Widfola
You're the only person here who is actually discussing the subject of the thread.
such a mind state can be called equanimity
Equanimity is about reaching a place where you're not swayed by either "good" or "bad," positive or negative, praise or blame. It's being able to stand firm in the midst of storms of emotion, without getting blown off-course.
Equanimity is a powerful level of being, which few people seem to achieve; and yet, it's accessible to us all, through the continuous practice of meditation.
Z: Equanimity is about reaching a place where you're not swayed by either "good" or "bad," positive or negative, praise or blame. It's being able to stand firm in the midst of storms of emotion, without getting blown off-course.
S9: I am thinking that when investigating into what equanimity actually is, it is important to understand that equanimity isn’t something that we actually do, or something that we hold onto once we have found it, which is a kind/of doing.
Equanimity is rather a State (attitude?) beyond doing, or even preference. It is neutral or maybe the in/between, (“the Middle Way” ?) with the two poles of good and bad (all duality) not touching it.
Z: Equanimity is a powerful level of being, which few people seem to achieve.
S9: I am under the impression that equanimity is not a mind object, and trying to achieve it with the mind is probably an impossibility. I think that equanimity is trans-mind, (outside of mind) or the state where you finally see that you, in fact, are not the mind or one of her objects. In this case activity continues to go on, both physical and mental, but you fully realize, “This is not mine” and “This is not me.“
Like the Buddha, you ‘Wake Up’ to the fact that all of the mind’s landscapes, including the players within the mind, (ego me) is but a temporary dream.
I think the equanimity that we find within the mind itself is only a temporary reflection of the Real Equanimity. This Real State of Equanimity is the equivalent to what some call Enlightenment or Liberation.
Friendly Regards,
S9
he gave a nice example to see the difference between awareness-consciousness-vinnana and the mind
hot water + tea + sugar = tea (a cup of tea) is like the consciousness
tea (cup of tea) - tea - sugar = hot water is like the mind
just ponder over it
Equanimity is not an attribute of a transcendent thing, it is a quality of non-identification with body, mind, and environment so that it all unfolds of its own accord. Everthing called "I-me" belongs to that continuum, and it has the quality of aloneness. There is no "I" for it to strike against or impinge.
This Equinimity is present at times, and there is more now than before, but the default mode is still a habitual of identification with body and mind and therefore limited equinimity at best. When certain karnic buttons get pushed there is no equinimity. So practice goes on, turning the tanker of habit energy.
Q: hot water + tea + sugar = tea (a cup of tea) is like the consciousness
tea (cup of tea) - tea - sugar = hot water is like the mind
S9: A cup of tea – tea – sugar- hot- water = Buddha Mind
(AKA Buddha Nature).
Don’t do that. "Be" That.
U: just ponder over it
S9: Pondering is practice, Being arrives.
Smiles,
S9
Don’t you think that Equanimity is a “Way of Being” that hovers outside of all that our ego constructs constantly, so that like you have said, so well, our Equanimity cannot be harmed?
Such a “Way of Being” (Equanimity) transcends both fear and suffering. Because of this, all of finite life can be approach as, and all that happens can be considered as, “This is not me,” and “This is not mine”, which Is 'Transcendence' spelled backwards. ; ^ )
In other words, Transcencence and Equanimity mirror each other, and yet are really One. It is only our mind's habit of separating and calling all of the qualities of Transcendence by different names. But like a rose that is both red and fragrant, these qualities are actually just 'One' rose-ness.
R: This Equanimity is present at times, and there is more now than before, but the default mode is still a habitual of identification with body and mind and therefore limited equanimity at best.
S9: Yes, sometimes I do believe that we get a taste of this ‘State of Being,’ called “Equanimity” or “Liberation,” what some have referred to as a ‘Glimpse.’ Yet, if we are still (in some dark corner of our psyche) continue to identifying with something outside of this “Blessed State,” we will surely slip back into the dream of ‘Me’ and ‘Mine.’
This is a little like in the early morning, when you wake temporarily, only to slip back into sleep again, and again. Yet, gratefully, when these events begin to manifest in our life, we can be confident that ‘Full Waking’ cannot be far behind. : ^ )
Respectfully,
S9
I would like to point out that, very often, people on the path equate Equanimity with a form of mental doing, which has been called "Quietism." But, "Quietism" only mimic Equanimity, and cannot be maintained indefinitely like any thing within the mind.
I believe that Equanimity blooms, naturally, only when ‘Clear Sight’ has made it possibly for all of our illusion to drop away. Equanimity is not something that can be forced or manufactured intellectually, one concept at a time.
I think that one of the most difficult things for us to understand, is how to stop, step away, and just let things be. We always have our fingers in the stew.
; ^ )
And yet, stepping away and dis-identifying, IS Freedom from attachment.
Respectfully,
S9
I have found that there are times when there is no dream, only awakeness and perfect peace, freedom, equinimity, and spontaneous action. There are times when there is dreaming, but it does not completely delude, and there is partial awakeness, freedom, and a deeper equinimity. Then there are times, less so now but still common, when the dream takes over completely, at least for a while. When this happens that basic freedom and equinimity not experienced at all. Not being the lived experience of the moment, freedom and equinimity are, in that moment, an ideal. It is an ideal that inspires, but it is not lived experience. Perhaps a perfectly Enlightened person is never without equinimity all time time, but I am not perfectly Enlightened. I have had enough practice to know suffering from not-suffering, and am secure in the path, but identification with body and mind is deeply rooted, and practice goes on.
This is where my practice is at, can't say for anyone else.
Richard:)
R: I have found that there are times when there is no dream, only awakeness and perfect peace, freedom, equanimity, and spontaneous action.
S9: I take it from the use of “spontaneous action,” that you are speaking about life outside of meditation, am I correct to assume this? If that is the case, you have certainly developed some separation. I am happy for you. : ^ )
I wonder however if you have found this Awake-ness, why when the mind wonders off, and further tells you that it is you that wondered off, you believe the mind? Do you think that perhaps it is because you believe that the mind is in charge, and must hold this awake-ness?
The reason that I ask this is because, I have found that the Awake-ness is Always Present, and once you become more familiar with it, and know where to look, you will also see this. It is not mind dependent.
Respectfully,
S9
There is the unobstructed quality I described in the earlier post. It is not continuous, there are moments of eclipse.
Most of the time I dont believe the story, but sometimes under certain circumstanced there is a lapse. It may be a case of old deep conditioning. For instance not long ago my son was kicked in the groin at school because he has mild tourettes, and the other kids were amused. By kicking him in the groin his anxiety and fear made his tourettes worsen to the delight of the bullies. On being called to the school there were moments when the situation, the story, was ....compelling, for me. so much so that equinimity did not come easy. This is very different than say buying fruit at the market and walking slowly home.
In my experience there are times when awakeness lapses . With practice the karmic triggers that would close things up before do not close things up as easily now.. "Awakeness" when it is truly clear isnt acknowledged as such, There is no checking back,,,"yes I am awake". Complete eclipse or seeming eclipse rarely occurs now.
Once again this is my experience, it may be different for you.
R: There is the unobstructed quality I described in the earlier post. It is not continuous; there are moments of eclipse.
S9: If there are moments of eclipse, it is "proof in the pudding" that you are trying to hold it in the mind, out of old habits. It is not so much that we don’t get actual glimpses of our Buddha Nature directly. It is more that we try to change that glimpse into a mind object. So that when we lose the mind object, we are confused and think that what we glimpsed has also gone away. I’ve, “Been there/done that.”
It is similar to another place many of us find our self on the path, me too at one time, when we think that one more sentence or concept is going to come along and put everything magically into its place. Since Ultimate Truth is not a mind object, neither is one more sentence/concept going to be our savior, nor is the mind ever going to be so strong that it can hold onto Ultimate Truth as a mind object indefinitely. We have to discover that which is "Effortless."
R: Most of the time I don’t believe the story, but sometimes under certain (extreme) circumstanced there is a lapse. It may be a case of old deep conditioning.
S9: I think that is perfectly natural, in extreme circumstances our monkey mind will be pulled away completely into emotional reaction. This is not a problem, because it is wisdom to understand that our mind follows the strongest stimulation, which is perhaps merely a survival mechanism. But, when things quiet down to a dull roar, we take our seat once more in our higher wisdom, and we can look directly at our Buddha Nature.
We are not trying to make our mind unresponsive, but rather come with time to understand thoughts and concepts are not us. Yes, we will have personal troubles and the pain, or even worse, be forced to stand by hopelessly as someone we love has troubles and pain, which we cannot prevent or alleviate. This is the lay of the land.
But, we need not add suffering to that equation if we practice wisdom mind, and understand that our suffering will in no way relieve another’s pain or troubles.
Mind itself does not become Awake, it just feels ease, and definitely “knows of” Awake-ness. Otherwise Buddha would not have said, “I am Awake.” He would has said, “ I am not suffering.” I don’t think that Buddha had any trouble finding the right words to explain.
Friendly Regards,
S9
To be honest I'm not sure where you are coming from at this point S9.
There are times when this body-mind, behaviour, ablity to truly hear, is open and clear. There are time when it is not. With practice times of openess increase and times of a close state decrease. The proof of the difference is in the behavior and how this behavior either benefits other or causes suffering to others. Like so many people on this forum have said, "There are no enlightened people, only enlightened actions". When caught up in identification with thoughts and feelings, the existence of a trancendent nature that is not caught-up, is not in that moment lived experience, and therefore a moot point. The focus is practice, returning to awareness of body and mind when things get caught up.
If you never get caught up at all, ever, never get sucked into identifiction with conditions. If you are truly grounded in 100% open awareness I00% of the time, then you are truly an enlightened being. I can't say whether this is so but it seems to me that what you describe is a bridging of the gap with an pervasive and subtle transcendent idea, and that you cannot see this idea because it is completely identified with it. This is just the thought that occurrs to me but I may be wrong.
In any case as, my half paralysed aunt Mary says "different strokes for different folks".
I can see by your gentle answer that we are too far apart of this issue, and it is probably best to let in rest as it now stands.
In friendship,
S9
How can my judgment of your statements have traction? If we were just sitting together, no talk, we would be of one eye, no problem. The division is in the unpacking, or rather the packing.:)
Same is true with anyone here who is willing to let go of view at some point. But this is a really viewy medium, so around we go.
Of course you are correct in that we move along only as we clarify. No truth only enters us merely through our ears or eyes, but rather through our own personal experience, or insight, and that is the way that it should be.
However sometimes, if we look where someone is pointing, we too can see what they are seeing. Isn't that the reason that Satsang is such a wonderful device?
Peace,
S9
Yours in the Dharma,
Todd