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Letting go.
It is going to be hard to let go an idea we have wanted to be true since the womb. An idea that that builds pyamids and cathedrals and comforts us when were gaze into the abyss.
But this idea is delusional; there is no reason to belive it, and a vast array of reasons to disbelieve it.
I step out of the comforting space and ask myself, does this delusion distract me, does it decieve me, does it waste time in this short life of mine?
What is this idea?
It is the idea that when I die I will not really die; that it won't really be the end. The idea that throws a scrap of hope to the begging question, there must be more to life than this?
There is no hope, all is impermanent, especially, most especially, these short, lucky, pointless lives of ours.
There is a Noble path between the hopeless and the delusional...
But this idea is delusional; there is no reason to belive it, and a vast array of reasons to disbelieve it.
I step out of the comforting space and ask myself, does this delusion distract me, does it decieve me, does it waste time in this short life of mine?
What is this idea?
It is the idea that when I die I will not really die; that it won't really be the end. The idea that throws a scrap of hope to the begging question, there must be more to life than this?
There is no hope, all is impermanent, especially, most especially, these short, lucky, pointless lives of ours.
There is a Noble path between the hopeless and the delusional...
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Comments
It didn't really click until yesterday that it is the delusional nature of rebirth that is the start of all problems of the spirit that Dharma addresses.
I think that the idea Rebirth is delusional, just like permanence, ego and inherent value.
This is my only life, to think otherwise would be delusional.
Dharma is truth and light.
Not so much a path between the hopeless and delusional as a middle way.
Anataman shows there is no distinction. All things are connected.
I am very if I asked you to explain that in more simple terms you wouldn't be able to. Buddhism is repleat with such ambiguities.
Of course the middle way. the middle way between hopeless nhilism and delusional mystcisim.
Or would you rather our great and noble path diverted the practioner merely away from that huge and eternal issue for human suffering, "self-mortification".
Do you not find that odd?:)
Mat
What really "clicked" yesterday that makes you "think" that the doctrine of rebirth is delusional?
This may be "our" only life; but since death is not complete annihilation at the disintegration of our fleeting body, there is something left (whatever it is, I don't really know)... don't you think there is a possibility that this "something" would continue to take some other shape or form... such continuation could be a literal rebirth.
In respect to the great noble path, and being lead away, I have never felt I was forced or cajoled into accepting any particular way with Buddhism. It has always been left to me to examine my beliefs and use my own experience as a guide. There may be individuals who would want one to "believe" one way or the other but as I suggested when I mentioned the middle way, I have always been encouraged to see things as a world of possibilities rather than "open and shut" cases. That describes the Buddhist way in concerns such as this.
I was looking at how rebirth fitted in with the criteria of Dharma that captured the other dharmic terms, and it just didn't. And then went back to the "self-mortification" mystery and it just clicked, its an actual delusion that the buddha was directing us away from in the first sermon.
Doesnt that very fact flash huge warning signs in your mind?
And also, why do you think there is something left? what is the reason?
I can see why you would LOVE there to be something left. i would too! But that doesn't mean there is:)
Why should i think that? I dont see it anywhere else, i have no reason to think it exists?
The seed of the rebirth delusion is confusing wanting to belive with being justified to belive.
Peace
Mat
I am very familiar with paradoxes:)
I know! And that is because there is no need to. It is the most seductive delusion there is; there is more to this life than this. No hard sell needed.
Have you been at all encouraged to question rebirth or to ask if the buddha might have taught it was a delusion?
Mat
At first it is coming from our ultimate nature as we sense another possibility (wisdom) and we are drawn to it (compassion). Then thinking mind turns it into an egoistic idea of how we can gain and avoid loss.
The original source my teacher calls the heart wish. Theres a relationship between the heartwish and opening and emptiness. The mandala of the heart which is the center of the mandala of awakening. The source of any reason to awaken which gives it meaning beyond just being an arbitrary meaningless form (this part I am guessing its not how my teacher told it). The opening is to allow that heart mandala to expand into the empty spaciousness of the mind.
Unless you provide some more specific information as to "what it is that continues" this is going to sound like mere speculation .... unfortunately
Sure sure, but that isn't the buddhist sense. Its tnot the desperate craving of our illusionary egos for more than this life.
"Please when I die don't let me die!" Begs the ego.
So I let go of a sense of something other in the universe, let go of my ego trip "immortality" and saw something far more beautiful.
It's understandable that you'd follow this "flash of insight"...
So you're saying death is a complete annihilation of a "being" at the disintegration of its material body?
Kind regards,
Sukhita
Thank you for that post:)
The universe is wonderful enough and life special enough without the ego trip "immortality".
Do you see enlightenment as mundane (like the universe), like I do?
metta
Mat
Absolutly! But we dont need dharma to see this, we have science, all the sciences supporting it. This is not an unusual view to a modern mind:)
But dharma gives us more insight, it shows there is nothing there in the first place and it shows directly how delusions cause suffering.
Is this not liberation from this prehistoic idea of gods, devas, souls and more than this short life?
Salome,
mat
Yes... it is speculation... what else can it be?
Thank you for your response.
Kind Regards,
Sukhita
Mundane like waiting in a que or mundane like seeing your firstborn born? I think for me mundate is the wrong word. It belongs I think to this world but I wouldn't use the same language as you. Twice I have had a wonderful experience, where I have understood things. A mo
ent later I had forgotten. I think this may have been a flash of something related to enlightenment. It maybe delusion but it was not mundane
using iPhone to post is not easy ;s
I have been thinking about this lots lately, the mundane. Wht it is and how far it stretches.
By "Mundane" I mean dependent upon this universe. By "dependent" I mean arrising or emerging from.
Last week I was showing my kids a Hubble slideshow. There were many "wows" from all of us. the stars and galaxies and clusters of galaxies that looked like single stars. Craze, awesome, wonderful... as you said in the last post. But it was largely just Hydrogen that we were looking at.
Equally internally, there are moments when I am utterly in the moment and that mindfulness seems unlike anything of this earth. It cant be put into words. But it is just the experience there is nothing more to it than that. It is nothing more than physical changes in my head.
So by "mundane" I don't mean dull or ordinary, I mean of this world, as opposed to in any sense being influenced by things not of this world, which I call "mystical".
They beauty of cosmos, the peace of mind, these are mundane to me, not in the slightest bit mystical.
Emergence is the only majic.
eeek I bet:) At leas it works, my blackberry cant post to here at all:)
much metta
Mat
I think your guitar string is strung too tight.
You think too much.
I have been told that that a lot, all my life.
I don't see it as a problem, I can see why you would.
Do you think people are not bright enough to be their own lights?
Go back to the story of the Buddha and how he became enlightenend ... it wasn't through intellectualization.
That's a nice point. You post some really insightful things.
You mentioned it earlier.
The Middle Way.
Mat, you really over-do it, sometimes.
To your own detriment, and to the frustration of others.
it is a problem, (and if others have told you this, then maybe it would be more a measure of your intelligence if you took some notice, for a change), and you really should open your eyes to it, because these endless mental machinations cause needless effort; Wrong Effort, in fact.
I've already told you the Buddha stated people shouldn't waste precious time on groundless and unanswerable problems. Yet you persist.
Something drives you to ask questions that ultimately, we shouldn't give a rat's ass about, because frankly, they're utterly pointless, and do nothing to further, enhance, deepen, improve or support Practice.
So - you don't know.
So - neither do we.
So what?
I mean, really...
So what?
Your last comment is a weird tangential one, and has nothing to do with what I'm referring to.
It's not a question of being bright enough....
it's a question of being sufficiently bright to see with clarity.
The light doesn't have to be so bright that it dazzles and blinds you.
Turn it down, pal.
I agree, its certainly the case in the time of The Buddha...
When should I know to stop intellectualising? Before of after the rebirth delusion is extinguish?
No? So all that perfect dhrmaic system he discovered, and worked out.. and saw how it effected us. dependent origination, Karma, the Noble truths, the marks of existance? They were not given to him buy his thoughts and understanding?
It even says, in the first sermon. "Understanding"
I think rebirth is delusional and part of the cause of suffering, I think the Buddha thought this. I think the Buddha taught this. I think too much.
Then humour me a last time and we can then ignore each other ever more should you wish....
Do you think, if there is no rebirth, that a believe that there is rebirth would be a delusion?
Think about that... really think about it. Meditate upon it. Contemplate it.
If after thinking, you agree, then it seems as a Buddhist, like me, you have a serious issue to confront.
I think you are wrong, I think this is an important issue. Would you say it is unimportant to a Christian if Jesus was real or fake? It is the same issue here.
Not true at all. In fact it radically changes practice from being about future lives that don't exist, to this life, that does, and is short and rare and precious.
It is very liberating.
Uncomfortable to make that first move, I am sure, and hard to let go of all we assumed about rebirth, but trust me, it is profound, not petty as you accuse.
No, I do know. I know that this is my last life.
I declare, there is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of suffering.
According to Buddhism, there are two sorts of understanding: What we generally call understanding is knowledge, an accumulated memory, an intellectual grasping of a subject according to certain given data. This is called 'knowing accordingly.' It is not very deep.
Real deep understanding is called 'penetration', seeing a thing in its true nature, without name and label. This penetration is possible only when the mind is free from all impurities and is fully developed through meditation.
If you mean the latter kind of understanding, 'penetration', then yes....
One doesn't needs to go that "deep" to see that rebirth isn't Dharma.
Yes, I believe this is possible. I am not putting down the amazing achievements meditation can allow. I am convinced that the Buddha must have had such a transcendental experience while meditating and this brought together the thoughts he had been thinking on for years of wandering mystical.
But that is not relevant to the rebirth delusion.
Letting go of this delusion is the first step to the deep insights you mention?
The very first step...
In life, our bodies are conditioned without fail. Our minds are conditioned up until the state of full enlightenment. Even those who attain the first stages of awakening do so in accord with conditions and are still subject to conditioning. The purpose of the Buddha's Dhamma, of walking the path, is to condition our minds to allow us to see this non-self for what it is; seeing that we are only of and by conditions, we become conditioned to seek the unconditioned state.
Only the Arahants have reached a state where the mind no longer grasps for the impermanent or for supports of an illusory 'self' (and consequently re-becoming of that self). In them, rebirth as you say applies to only a single life truly does cease. Focus effort on the realization of non-self, selflessness known as anatta, and the rest will surely follow.
A cornerstone of my practice is the understanding and cessation of delusions:)
BTW MatSalted, are you a Buddhist? I'm just curious
It may not be to you, but it is to me and I think it must have been to The Buddha:) Declaring that it is delusion is the start of my path.
We may all be in a celestial blue cheese, so sure, we can never know that in the impossible sense. But that is different to being sure that this is my last life, that I will not be reborn. Ponder upon that:)
yes, very much so:)
Mat
Well it shouldn't be, we should enjoy life now.
I don't know. But if it's impossible to know the afterlife you don't not know there isn't an afterlife.
What parts do you believe in?
I agree.
Question: Do you think you would you enjoy life more now knowing it is your last life, or, if it was one of countless other lives of samsaric suffering?
This is true of any contingent proposition. We can just go by best evidence.
The best evidence is that life is biological fluke conditioned by Dharma.
There is zero evidence for rebirth, hence why it is a delusion, that's what "deusion" means:)
That which I cannot doubt, namely:
That is what I belive. I have spent nearly a decade thinking about the above deeply and just recently has it all really come together in my mind:)
Mat
I agree with you, however it is very possible we are both delusioned (is that a word?) perhaps the ego is fulling this in an attempt to prove others wrong. My logic and understanding is greater than yours.
Totally agree, I see no evidence of magic, levels of hell and heaven. transmigration, mediation to be a deity.
However all 4 of the above I see all around me. Indeed some other ideas seem to contradict the above four particularly the three marks.
To answer your question... I'd enjoy them the same. If I don't get reborn, that's life. If I do, then I wouldn't be the same person, it wouldn't be like I have all the memories I have now, it wouldn't be like I was living for eternity in all different life experiances and positions. Either way ME, I, MYSELF only lives once. It might be my take on things in a different life but I'm only 100% me because of EXACTLY what I've been through. If I couldn't be ME life wouldn't be worth living.
Love & Peace
Jellybean
Anything is possible, but based on the evidence I would not say the above is probable:)
Yes!:) i think most thoughtful buddhists at some poiont in tehir path ask questions like:
"Hang on, if all things are impermanent how can there be an eternal cycle?"
Or
"I dont get it. the most important part of Buddha's teachings is "no soul" so how can there be rebirth?"
And the only kinds of responses that can be made to these are things like:
"Meditate harder"
or
"When you are there, you will see rather than underknown"
or
"The answer is single pointedness of mind"
Those are not answers to my questions, those are attempts to silence the very question.
mat
What is there to annihilate Sukhita?
All we know right now is that the dead body will remain decaying in a cemetery adding its elements back to the nature. The five khandhas are a part of nature. Out of these new life maybe born. Things die and new things are born. And all things are part of nature and not-self. There is no solid entity here to continue or to annihilate. Oh well, maybe I am missing something
Have a think about the true liberty realised when you admit without meaningful question to yourself that this is your last life, in all senses.
It isn't bad!:)
Very good explanation here
I agree, but of "anataman" not "rebirth":)
Mat
Sukhita to Mat: Mat to Sukhita:
The question was put to Mat in the context of his specific post and Mat has answered accordingly.
My response to your question, in a general context, is: In Buddhism, there is no permanent, unchanging phenomena. All phenomena are impermanent. They are in a constant and endless process of changing into something else. This is dependent origination; the understanding that phenomena arise together in a mutually interdependent web of cause and effect. Everything depends on everything else. Their arising, enduring, changing and disappearing are taking place constantly and endlessly. So there is nothing substantial (material, mental, self, ego...) that can be subject to annihilation. Both nihilism and eternalism are extremes that fall outside the Middle Way. But then again... you already know all of this...
With kind regards,
Sukhita
The question then becomes does holding onto something so elusive as the answer to the question about rebirth, help one on the path, or is it a hindrance to more fruitful pursuits? I have to go along with Federica on that point. So Matt, what is the insight that will be gained arguing over something that will be dissected over and over again but never resolved to everyone's satisfaction?
Yes. We agree on this, as would all Buddhists, I am sure:)
As above:)
And, of course, as above.
So up to here I assume that you see the rebirth delusion. But then...
What does this mean, eternalism? Do you mean self-mortification as the first sermon says or do you mean mysticism? I think this is the crucial point and very much look forwards to your thought:)
Mat
It's mu job to NOT ignore you. Nor anyone else, for that matter...
But I DO think there is a re-birth.
It makes sense to me, and I'm happy with my conclusion....
Have done. for the past 15 years +, so I don't intend to waste any more time thinking on something which to me, is an acceptable premise...
Not I.
You're the one who insists on making it a regurgitative problem.
Er, I don't think so.
Rebirth is a concept. Jesus was a person.
That this life 'exiasts' is real, yet part of our illusion. That future lives not exiating?
This is the waste of time, because you have absolutely fundamentally completely no proof at all that you are right.
And neither do I.
So this is where cogitation is worthless, futile and pointless.
I wish I could say you therefore sound liberated. But you don't. You sound connfused, troubled, worried and agitated.
I assume nothing about rebirth.
I absolutely believe in it. But you don't.
Frankly, I'm not going to try to convince you, because I don't care what you think.
No you don't. You have categorically no proof of this whatsoever, so you can only say you firmly believe it.
But there is doubt there - as there should be.
because otherwise, you are not a Buddhist. You're a Nihilist.
And that's fine.
But you can never, ever know something of this magnitude, for sure. For sure....
Declare away.
Simply because you say it, doesn't make it so.
I declare, there is more rebirth for you, in hell, as an animal or ghost, or in any other realm of suffering. I know this will happen to you.
I have no doubt of it at all. You will be reborn, I am certain of it.
There.
So you say no, and I say yes, and I'm right, by the way.....;)