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Letting go.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Your mistake here is in the term "proof".
I can prove dharma, so can you, no doubt you already have.
But the same is not true of rebirth. there is no evidence for it:) Hence its delusional, unlike dharma and science and maths etc....
I am entirely satisfied that rebirth is a delusion and the buddha saw this and taught this.
If you are not thats fine, but that leaves you in no position to question my certainty on this issue:)
If you are not prepared to doubt everything...
Well wishes
Mat
I would rather not, but if your going to get all negative then it would be best:)
OK
OK, but please note myself and its clear others would like to discuss this more.
To me at least its not an acceptable;e premise, in fact, to me, its one that leads to suffering
I have enough proof that there is no rebirth, god, heaven, Santa as I need.
Really, I am very fine:) May I suggest for future chats you stop telling me how i am when its not relevant and you know nothing about me in my offline life:)
it isnt productive for either of us.
You assume its real when there is no evidence supporting that.
I can tell you why I absolutly belive it is delusion. Can you tell me why you belive I am wrong?
OK, well, as you not I dont jump into you threads telling you you are wrong so if you stop doing that to mine we should have no point to argue about:)
The Mirror of Dharma is about looking empty self in the face and admitting that you have no doubt about it. This is my last life, I am certain of that.
you should read the God Delsuion on doubt and certainty regarding unevidenced belifs:)
But If I ask you to back up your certainty you cant. you can give no evidence supporting your belief whjeras I can:) See the differnce?
And if I try to start threads that will show you this... see what happens?
I am not being hostile here, I am saying it how I see it.
Mat
I have it resolved to my satisfaction. I am as sure as one can be.
As to what that insight, that is for you to decide for youself. how would your view of Dharma change if you because sure that Buddha was teaching rebirth was a delusion?
Think on that:) I look forwards to your reply!
Mat
Either there is rebirth or there is not.
Some buddhists are certain there is rebirth.
Some are certain there is not.
Therefore, some Buddhists are disillusioned.
I want to know if I am one of them.
Wouldn't you?
Please answer that:)
I dont know, should we help each other out of delusion?
Will you now answer my question from the last post?:)
You don't exactly approach this subject in an open, inquisitive way. You sound quite certain. And the interaction tends to become confrontational. Sounds much more like prosthelytizing rather than inquiry. Is confrontation when discussing beliefs a Buddhist skill, or is it more wordly?
I have tried many ways over the months here to get these kind of chats out and productive.
And now you just accuse me of more of ye olde trolling kind of accusations.
Its a shame.
but it doesn't change my point.
I guess you wont answer my question:)
I wish you well.
No one is going to agree on which texts to use, which interpretation, or any individual's beliefs on these.
For the atheistically-inclined, the question "Can it be proven?" equates to No, and their quest ends.
Yet, just as in the question of the existence of God, the question "Can it be dis-proven?" also rears its head. The absence of proof is not proof of absence, as the saying goes, and in our sciences that which can not be dis-proven can not be factually claimed as non-existent.
We may be reasonably certain that the boogeyman does not exist, that we made him up, but from the standpoint of provable evidence, he may be just as real as God, just as real as the East Bunny, and just as real as rebirth. That something is implausible by opinion does not make it factually impossible or false.
Thus will there never be a consensus, exactly as with the question of God. There are many more people who either believe or disbelieve in God than there even are Buddhists in this world. Let us not think our problems are greater than one such as this, or that they are unique.
The Buddha would say that speculation is unskillful, and it is dukkha. I would agree, and I hope that with some effort applied to understanding the futility of this discussion, others would agree as well. Whether you believe in rebirth or disbelieve, it will never be helpful to try and convince others as to what is a very personal matter.
That's my two cents. I'm out.
Ok, let's have it.....
well give me your evidence otherwise, and I'm open to suggestion. So far, you've still come up with zippo....
No. You must do that for yourself.
I didn't say I believed you to be wrong. I merely said I was right. Therein lies the difference....:D
Ah, I have you at a disadvantage.
I don't usually create threads.....
And this is NOT mine. I am certain of that.
I've 'spoken' to Richard Dawkins personally.
he now believes he would rewrite certain passages. he also thinks Buddhism is probably one of the saner religions on the planet - if not the sanest. He has his own website. You must join...
Still waiting for this so-called 'evidence'.....
What exactly have you tried to show, other than you feel we're all idiots, and that you are the only one capable of thinking, simply because you 'doubt everything'....?
Actually, no, I think not:) In a sense the Christan idea of God is more resonable than the Buddhist's idea of rebirth.
There are a class of logically unknowable statements, as you note. Is god real? is rebirth true? Do faieries exist?
But my claim is a bit differnt, I am saying that rebirth is not dharma, that the buddha didnt teach it, that he must have seen it as delsuoonal.
To see that they are not "exactly the same" as you say, compare these two statemnts:
I am a Christian but I do not believe in Christ or God.
I am a Buddhist but I do not believe in rebirth.
Consensus is not what is important, as the buddha said to the kalamas, what is important is that we know directly ourselves.
You dont know that, you assume, based on the suttras. I think the buddha would say that rebirth was delusional because no evidence supports it.
if rebirth is delusional would it be futile? thats the big question, isnt it?
Mat
Mat you are a nihilist (according to this article!) some people are eternalists.
When you realize that the self cannot be found the question of life after death ceases...
Tell me precisely where I have personally insulted you.
I have been engaging in a discussion with you in order to draw out this so-called proof you say you have, and to date, you have evaded, avoided and refused.
Not only my requests but those of others.
So either come up with the goods, or find your threads severely curtailed, the instant you start back-pedalling.
I have been called asshole, troll etc here and that doesnt insult me really. i know I can come over a prick, but I'm not. I just say it how I see it.
But I find this insulting
I don't think you are all idots. I don't think my dying Christian relative is an idiot or my baptist minister friend. Its just wrong of you to say that. Its mean spirited and ungrounded.
I think dharma is very easy for anyone to see from first principles.
When I tried to show you how easy it was to see dharma from first principles you moved the thread away from public view. I just cant win.
And still you threaten me with censorship. Its wrong. I dont understand why it is being allowed. I am polite and civil and as calm as I can be. My only crime is to call rebirth delusion.
You are confident that rebirth is a delusion; I am confident that it is not a delusion. So... lets leave it at that...
I am happy with that,
peace out:)
Mat
Your 'only crime' is to refuse to back what you state are your certainties, to start threads which are argumentative, ultimately spiralling and going in ever decreasing circles and frankly, not of much use, because you always bring it down to the point that when challenged, you recommend people find out things for themselves, when in fact. it would be more constructive to provide information as requested.
You play the injured party very well.
but don't think you can twist your knife to make me feel guilty or sorry for you.
if you vested as much time in reflection on what is pointless and what isn't, you'd be spending your time more productively.
Perfect.