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Appalled
I am appalled at the censorship that goes on here. Can I have a moderator to assist with this please?
Its like a fascist state rather than a Buddhist forum:(
Its like a fascist state rather than a Buddhist forum:(
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
not mine
status/disgrace,
censure/praise,
pleasure/pain:
these conditions among human beings
are inconstant, impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this,
the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don't charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.
His welcoming & rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end, do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly, has gone,
beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.
Lokavipatti Sutta: The Failings of the World
You will have to give examples.
I have had 3 threads closed or censored because they shine a light on the elephant in the room.
Anyways... I am more calm now than after the last bout.
Onwards and upwards..
That's some Jumbo Mumbo you am peddlin' there;)
LOL!
First they will start censoring Buddhist forums and you may laugh, but when they move to the New Age and Wiccan Forums, you will know you stood by while the spiritual Nazis rampaged through our liberties!:P
I jest;)
That most recent thread had more than ran it course and had it continued would have just kept going and going in endless, unproductive circular arguments. If the other two threads were anything like it then it's not hard to see why they were closed.
Utter rubbish, really. Who is to decide when a thread is run? There were still interesting chats in that.
The rebirth delusion leads to censorship, its very unbuddhist. Period.
MatSalted let me say I 100 % agree with your argument. However now it is only increasing your suffering. It is also making some other people suffer, those who see rebirth as mystical are becoming worked up. It is filling the board with egos verging on anger. This is most certainly un-Buddhist.
I am sure that all Buddhists would agree that the dissolution of delusions is a key part of Dharma practice, in a sense that is The Noble Eightfold Path.
I believe that Rebirth is a delusion, as do you.
I believe the Buddha taught it was Delusion, you may not.
Either way, Rebirth either is or is not a Delusion, there is no "half-rebirth."
I want to discuss these issues with other Buddhists, they are important to me.
I don't wan't to tell anyone what they should believe, but I want to be able to talk about what I believe without being insulted, censored, silenced or accused of unwholesome motives, all of which I am here, repeatedly.
So what should I do?
Much metta,
Mat
I am happy for there to be more than one elephant.
I am happy to admit I may be deluded on many things.
Why are you not happy to discuss my rebirth delusion?
Why does it make you aggressive?
Why does it make you insult someone you don't even know?
Isn't the very fact the people are (at least in your view) insulting you showing that your karma is having a very disturbing effect on those around you.
I'm sure if a new poster said I don't understand rebirth/non-self, and your aired you views the thread would not be closed.
No, this is a buddhist discussion forum not a temple.
I dont go attacking other peoples views. I want to discuss my admittedly controversial views and doubts.
I am not the one being a fundamentalist here.
I would be happy with one thread to disucss this in, my threads keep getting closed etc, hence why I start up new ones.
All I am trying to force is an open discussion about the rebirth as delusion.
Because people (including me) have tried politely discussing these things at length with you, and you have ignored, summarily dismissed, and willfully misunderstood them. (At least, either it was willful, or contrary views turn you into some kind of an idiot.) Because willful ignorance of threatening information is a practice I hold in utter contempt as the most destructive form of cowardice.
I can see why you say that, really I can. I come here and I am pretty much saying "Buddhism has been wrong for hundreds of years, ebirth is delusion and the Buddha taught this."
That's a bold claim for sure, and I am bound to take flack for it.
But again, what should I do? Just shut -up and not discuss the Dharma I have dedicated my life to with others who have?
I am sorry, I cant do that. It seems wrong.
Yes yes, again, I can see why you would say that. All i can say is you misread me. But if I cant even get you to doubt anything I am hardly going to convince you or anyone that I have much more humility than you assume.
I have offered to speak with as a person on the phone or internet but you refuse, prefering to hide away behind unfounded slander. its a real shame.
That is just lies. I have tried just asking questions and truied to show from first principles and all the time I get all this nastyness.
What am I ignorant of about rebirth? You cant tell me.
What am I a coward about? Again you wont be able to tell me.
Sad
Do you practice Buddhist meditation? Why are you here?
That you're not going to have the impact you hoped for, with this line of attack. That you're not being taken seriously, even by the people who ought to be your allies in this matter. Failing to acknowledge these realities and adapt accordingly is self-destructive cowardice.
Yes, though not very well. I prefer chanting, but will keep trying with med as I have been.
I will give you two answers for that:
I am a troll who gets some kind of kick out of telling buddhists that they are wrong and and just winding them up. It is so much more fun that Xbox.
I am a life-long philospopher who loves to philosophise, it is what I am, what I do. I am also a buddhist for a long time who had dedicated my life to the practice of Dharma. I like to philosophise about dharma. recently my doubts have been solidifyng into what to me at least is a profound realisation that something may well be deeply amis within Buddhism. i would like to discuss this.
I only know it is delusion. It has no evidence. It is no differnt from santa or heaven. That is what a delusion is.
Do you not see how lame that is? You're just saying "practice more" its arrogant, patronising and entirely obvious to anyone willing to step out of the mire that you just dont have an answer. Because there is none.
All you have is the desperate hope of a desperate clining illsuonary ego.
Of course you want to belive in rebirth!
So do I!
Wouldn't it be great!
But that doesnt make it real...
This craving is the root of the is the human condition, of suffeing. Look into the mirror of dharma before you call me a fool.
This is a disussion forum.
I am not going to stop the discussing redbirth to protect your illusionary egos deluded clinging to the wholly unjustified hope that there is more to life than this.
Nios.
Obviously the buddhists who do believe in rebirth don't think it's great, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to get out of it.
I am glad you agree!
My point is that I think that the buha realsied that rebirth is a delusion, that this is the very start of the path (rebirth rather than self-mortifiation) and that over the millenia the Hindu idea of rebirth has crept back into the doctrine.
What do you think about that idea sky?
I agree!:) My whole point is I cannot doubt dharma! I am saying, my entire thesis, is that rebirth is not a dharmic notion but cultural contamination:)
I dont understand the relevance. This isnt about me it about dharma.
the diamoku, but again, can we keep this off the individuals and to the dharma:)
mat
Your right, I haven't a clue what allows you to cling so tight to rebirth and I dont want to discuss with you. Too much dukka delusion and time waste for the both of us.
Am I right in this? Or have I misunderstood you.
I think your posts are about you, Mat. I got interested when you told me you had some doubts about the dharma, now you seem to be backsliding from that position.
What relevance does this discussion of rebirth have to your practice of meditation or mine?
For me, it is relevant because I pray to have precious human rebirth again in my next life.
Thanks for answering my questions about your practice directly. It helps me understand more where you're coming from. I know very little about Nicheren Buddhism. Why don't you start a thread on it?
Which part of "I don't accept the conventional rebirth doctrine..." was unclear to you?
Yes, whatever way you look at it, the idea that there is in any sense an "afterlife" is delusional.
It is the illusionary ego clinging to the idea that there is more to life than this.
If you mean the metaphorical senses that something is reborn from one moment to the next. I understand that metaphore but importantly:
I don't think that is what the Buddha could have meant because there is no need for the metaphor, that role is perfectly captured by annica and anataman:)
So I would say that rebirth in all senses is not a Dharmic concept, even the metaphorical:)
What do you think?:)
mat
http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud10.htm
Will you answer my question above sky, I was courteous to answer yours:)
I am reading that essay now:)
I find teachings on rebirth to be skillful means.
Either this post was overlooked along with all the other times fivevbells made his position on the literal, conventional rebirth doctrine clear, or else this Thread has become a perfect example of the willful ignorance fivebells just mentioned:
http://shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2914&Itemid=0
"There are six realms of transmigration where beings take birth.
They are the realms of gods, demigods, humans, animals, hungry ghosts, and hell.
You take birth in those realms because of superior, middling, and evil karmas."
Sorry skydance evidence like that for rebirth convinces me more against the concept of rebirth as transmigration. If something like that was presented as a scientific paper it wouldn't get past the first state of peer review. Presenting hearsay and de ja vu as evidence?
It's only evidence is the source from sutras. Which we must accept as being heard right and interpreted correctly.
You and I have been here more than once (And I don't mean that in the samsaric sense!
But understand, if you start talking to me about rebirth, as you have a want to do, I will not sweeten any pills, nor would I want you to with me.
This is a discussion forum and I am here to discuss.
Meta mat
Hi
Please can you spell it out what I am missing. I answer countless threads here daily so I know I miss much.
And as an asside, what do you think about the idea that Rebirth is a delusion and the buddha taught this?
Mat
Using a mediator I guess. That doesn't mean it will work, but he works as a facilitator. It is an interesting idea: a moderator to enforce the rules and forum mediators to help solve the conflicts. How about that?
Ask yourself this question, if you stood sure and declared that this was your last life, how would it effect your dharma practice?