Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Appalled
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Was that the one with aaki?
I think this thread is fast turning into another "belief in rebirth = delusion" thead.
Perhaps the greatest delusion is that any good can come of arguing with him, or in some cases, agreeing with him. As people try to debate points with him, we become entangled in a web where we end up becoming frustrated and we begin trying to force the issue. He is great at baiting people and drawing them into discussions that are never ending and pointless.
It has nothing to do with practicing Buddhism for either Matsalted or the person debating with him.
Ahhh that would explain why you knickers are in a twist... I havent read any links you have posted.
What is your point? If it cant be summarises in a few lines it cant be clear.
That is a fact of all beliefs, I believe.
Well not quite. I am truely prepared to accept and listen to other views but if they are the same kind of answers that I have been told in person by Buddhists or read any of the many buddhists books I have read on the subject then please forgive me for thinking that there is nothing new there.
I just read the essay Sky pointed to earlier and again, nothing new there, same old same old.
I am not stupid, I am not not believing in rebirth because I haven't thought about it deeply.
Have you considered that this may well be because your starting point is utterly indefensible and in fact rebirth is bunkum?
Its not baiting. I think there is a serious mistake in Buddhism. Anything i say to that effect will be seen as baiting. But that isnt my motive.
I do not come here to pratice, its a pretty dire place for that. I come here to think and talk about buddhism.
I would be happy to have a fully moderated neutral disicussion, but not one by a moderator who craves to protect the idea of rebirth. Thats a sham and a shame.
There are plenty of threads on this forum that question rebirth, and they don't get closed/moved. Your's do though.
Use your deductive skills.
Maybe it's the way you post in them that gets them moved/closed?
Are you sure I am a proponent of rebirth? But then, it doesn't really matter since the fight is the thing.
I'd vote for that!
Mind you, I am sure we would all agree that the world would be far better if politicians saw dharma.
mat
No not at all. You need to lose the idea that I am on some "conversion trip". I couldn't give a rats ass what you believe, it is utterly unimportant to me, as Dharma says it should be.
I have many religious friends of all pursusasions, and never harang them, even though I think they are deluded and they are aware of this. But if they came here and tried to tell me that "Buddha taught rebirth" I would argue with them until they wanted to stop or federica closed the thread:P
This is not a sacred space, it is a discussion forum. Don't come here if you don't want to read people discussing.
No, no its not. I love a good debate, always have and will gladly debate just for the recreation of the "fight". Its fun and challenging and good exercise for the mind as many here can testafy, because I am not the only one who loves to debate here!:) Its not a crime, its a hobby.
But that is not the main reason I am here. I am here to further my undertsnaidng of dharma and see what others think about my radical views.
I am a kind and compassionate moral, thoughtful person who is utterly commited to Dharma.
I am not the troll you think I am.
this is the most liberal Buddhist forum I've seen.
I thought this could have been it, months ago./ And I really make an effort not to antagonise or be disrespectful. I even had a thread that was just a list of questions closed! Thats appauling, isnt it?
My threads get closed because of their content.
We allow this in our internet forums and what next? facebook? (<<<Thats meant to be a joke, btw)
Mat
I know! Years ago I had the same thing on e-sanga, and that was when I was more agnostic and still grappling to the idea that maybe there was rebirth.
but that forum had some rule in its T&C that said something like "You cannot question core buddhist doctrine like rebirth" and that's fair enough.
This forum doesn't have that condition, which is why it is NEW Buddhist. If it has that condition, I will respect it. It would be a sad day for us, I think most could agree.
where is the forum owner when you need them?
I dont think this important decision about freedom of speach on this forum should be left in the hands of a person who clearly is serving the very agenda I am questioning.
mat
But if the moderators see threads on rebirth becoming argumentative, how long will they tolerate it? At some point, won't they just get tired of it? I'm just saying, we should tread carefully when talking about these things.
See how negativity bnreeds more negativity. you have come over from day one as a thug, I called you that months ago and days ago. I am sorry I didnt read your links, as soon as I see your posts I am on the defensive, my mind just looking for your nasty.
So sorry again, I can see why you call that willfull ignornace, it must seem like that but I swear it wasnt. It was more just me being reactive,. I dontbthink you have had anything to offer me because your so aggressive.
EG I read sky's post right away, they are not agressive.
If you would like to make a fresh start I will make every effort to read your links and not react in a combative mode when we talk.
What do you say?
Mat
I also realize you and the admin have a beef
If you scan back over how the negativity starts, its almost always people responding my statement of beliefs. Check the last three threads that got closed if dubious of this claim.
That's just Bollocks. Utter bollox:) I hardly ever talk in threads I didn't start and make it very clear exactly what my issues are.
That "lurking" is in your mind, not in the facts or the evidence of those facts.
Oh do you mean I respond quick and that i am lurking in that sense! I get ya. I have a little netbook that I take most places with me:) I cant wait till I get an android phone so I can hassle people from the post office queue:P
I dont think I would deny it that much, its been going on weeks.
no i know I do.
If you don't know how I view things, how can you state and I quote "Have you considered that this may well be because your starting point is utterly indefensible and in fact rebirth is bunkum?". Once more, you have changed course and put words in my mouth and totally ignored the facts.
If you proceed as if your assumptions are fact and you never check how valid your statements are, you are very bad at your hobby. You are the only one here that seems to feel you debate effectively. Perhaps it is time to take a look at how you conduct these debates.
Ok, I'm a Moderator.
I will assist.
Please stick to the above OP topic, thanks.
If you want to open a thread on the pretence of discussing Moderator decisions, but really, just bang your drum about re-birth....
then you and I know what will happen eventually, don't we?
Anything else, or are you done here?
The 'tone' is far from the earlier days when we appeared genuinely interested in each other's differences. Oh, we would argue (wouldn't we, Jason?) and, at the same time we learned how to recognise when we had gone too far and even, occasionally, to apologise to each other and to those who come here to read, learn, get some refreshment whilst refraining from posting.
After all these posts, may I ask the OPs (plural) if they are clear what their intention was at the outset, and if they are, today, any nearer achieving it? I admit that I have my doubts that this long thread could be deemed "skillful means".
Rebirth, whether integral to the Buddhist Dharma or not, makes a jolly good motive for a version of Pascal's wager. If belief facilitates our crawl along the Noble Eightfold Climb, if it gets people through the night, improving their own and other people's lives, or if non-belief achieves the same objective, who are we to cavil?
It may be that I am reading a subtext that doesn't exist but I am left asking myself: Why do some people find it so-o-o-o important to persuade their perceived opponent? I can understand the fundamentalist Christian who believes that non-belief=damnation - just because I understand doesn't mean that I agree, and I admit that I reject neither rebirth nor any other post-death shenanigans, including extinction. We'll find out (or not) soon enough. Choose life.
Thank's for the post. I think it must depress us all when it gets like this.
Because we get our egos caught up in it?
Because we really are sure we are right?
Because often in life you don't get a chance to really say what you mean about something that is important to you?
Because we are human. We have dukka. We make dukka.
This forum is a bit like a mind, don't you think?
mat
It was a personal critique of a Moderator decision, and as such, the OP has had the situation clarified by more than one member.
And by the way: on-forum discussion of Moderator decisions is both ill-advised and discouraged.
Moderators always have their reasons for their decisions. They are not up for public discussion, and at times, are not up for discussion, at all.
The phrase I'm looking for is, "Get over it".
I think that's a wrap.