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I'll put this right on out there. I haven't forgiven someone who battered me. I would do anything in the world to get rid of the rage I feel. All I can do is sit with the burn.
You must have really gotten a good kicking (in the hospital?) I mean I've taken a couple of beatings in the past, but I just sort of forgot about them. I was angry about being robbed but there's no way I would be able to squeeze any cash back out of this person.
I guess forgiveness for me is a moot point because I just carry on. The guy who robbed me was a real asshole but now he's a family guy. He's moved on and quite good to talk to in passing... but I won't trust him again. We all know what he's like...
OH HA HA, he's a thieving bastard, but a loveable one at that. Lol, no problem, never mind. Wish I could get that cash out of him right now. Really need it..
My teacher says that anger is a distortion of the buddha nature. Specifically it is a distortion of 'clarity' which is one aspect. It is a clear 'no'. Related to anger as we can transform anger is a faculty to see through obstacles.
My teacher says that anger is a distortion of the buddha nature. Specifically it is a distortion of 'clarity' which is one aspect. It is a clear 'no'. Related to anger as we can transform anger is a faculty to see through obstacles.
It should be learned and practiced with offline teacher supervision. I have known of cases where sensitive and troubled individuals have got completely carried away into believing that they were actually taking in the suffering and illness of others and then have become very disturbed and paranoid as a result.
Tonglen needs to be connected with teachings on emptiness (ie bodhicitta).
You also need to be able to let go of the pain and connect with your heart's wish for happiness, relief, and goodness. Likewise you need to not grasp onto (the thinking of) those things and be able to let go of them to begin the inbreath.
It takes practice and a teacher can surely help. I don't think tonglen is the problem so much as it is interwoven with teachings on emptiness. Part of the bodhisattva vow is NOT to teach emptiness to beings who are hostile to such an idea OR emotionally unstable.
kurra, my teacher is a lama of the Kagyu tradition in Tibetan Buddhism. A text that communicates some of the message of anger as a distortion of clarity would be Clarity, Openness, and Sensitivity by Rigdzin Shikpo. You might be able to find a review or discussion.
Most of the time it is our fault, when thing go wrong, but what we can't control is when someone else decides to do what they want. It's usually their way at your expense. If it's money someone has stolen and you don't go and try get it back, most people will feel crap about themselves for doing nothing. The natural thing to do is to pass blame, which is more wishful thinking, as in 'I wish you would give it back'. If it's a mental harm, there's no taking back, so for many people the wish will be 'I want you to feel sorry; I want you to apologise; I want you to understand that you've done me wrong.
Another approach is more self righteous thinking, where suddenly you're the one who came out on top with superior morals. They're the one who is suffering for it, and if they're not now, they will be.
Maybe, you can, as has been suggested 'make friends' with the feeling but it's far better to stand up and do something about it. I won't stand for bullying or bad behaviour if I can do something about it. For the most part there's a lot of passiveness and learned helplessness, especially in a crowd situation because no-one takes responsibility.
I can't be arsed feeling crap about myself anymore. If I'm judging myself and calling myself a coward, rightly so, when the situation calls for it change it, or sit there sulking and brooding. When it's too dangerous, no sweat, I definitely can't do anything about it.
If I misunderstand or I've got a poor attitude so be it, maybe I've not practiced enough or understood enough to give my opinion here, but for what it's worth that's the way the cookie crumbles.
Au contraire. I believe that everything that happens to you is a direct result of the conditions you yourself have created, even if it seems totally unrelated to you.
The trouble for me is that I do see the possibilities for freedom from suffering. Being new to the practice, I wouldn't consider it second nature. It really isn't just some kind of nice self talk that I use to get me through traffic jams. There has been times when I was able to recognize my habitual response to fear as I saw myself shutting down, breath in my what I recognize to be raw pain and try to do something different-Train in the three difficulties. I am trying. I guess my struggle is around it being so hard. You get tired of sadness, and hurt and fear. If you have been working hard since you were a child developing patterns of self-preservation, they are almost more than habit, it's almost preverbal.
I am unskilled, I know and probably avoiding sitting with the feelings I have because I have the idea that I will be so overwhelmed that I couldn't function. Especially since most of the time, the pain we are dealing with is not always what's in front of your face. I have resigned myself to do what I can and be ok with that. Holding on to expectations that I will somehow feel better at any given moment usually results in disappointment, because when it bubbles up to the surface I am bummed because I just felt happy.
The intention I had was to share my struggle with forgiveness in hopes to find support in trying to move through this with compassion and understanding, which is my true hope.
I do not see Buddhism as a series of greeting card pick me ups that will get me through a bad day. I see it as life philosophy that will get me closer to being a person that in recognizing the preciousness of life, I can deal with the suffering that goes with an open heart and open mind. It's hard to let go of habits and patterns that you have worked hard on maintaining your entire life. I began studying Buddhism before this happened and was able to take that knowledge and help me to relate with a difficult childhood with compassion. The experience was profound and life changing. I know it is possible. The difference now is that the childhood was behind me, and my marriage is front of me. This is infinitely more challenging. I do know that had I not had some basic knowledge or experience with studying Buddhism, we wouldn't be together right now.
Sometimes when it feels so hard, i get singularly focused with my anger at my back. Those are the times that it feels that Buddhism is to hard, because I don't WANT to believe what I know to be true. I happen to work in the field of psychology so I deeply understand that hurt people hurt people. As any therapist, counselor knows, it can be hard to take your own advice. I see my husband as a human being with flaws, like we all have. I know that he poured water on a very negative seed. His actions were a result of suffering, some of which I help to create and some of which came long before me. I know that no single act happens alone. We are all products of something. I know that sometimes you need the rug pulled out of front under you and that can be a catalyst for change. It's just hard when it hurts so much.
The trouble for me is that I do see the possibilities for freedom from suffering. Being new to the practice, I wouldn't consider it second nature. It really isn't just some kind of nice self talk that I use to get me through traffic jams. There has been times when I was able to recognize my habitual response to fear as I saw myself shutting down, breath in my what I recognize to be raw pain and try to do something different-Train in the three difficulties. I am trying. I guess my struggle is around it being so hard. You get tired of sadness, and hurt and fear. If you have been working hard since you were a child developing patterns of self-preservation, they are almost more than habit, it's almost preverbal.
I am unskilled, I know and probably avoiding sitting with the feelings I have because I have the idea that I will be so overwhelmed that I couldn't function. Especially since most of the time, the pain we are dealing with is not always what's in front of your face. I have resigned myself to do what I can and be ok with that. Holding on to expectations that I will somehow feel better at any given moment usually results in disappointment, because when it bubbles up to the surface I am bummed because I just felt happy.
The intention I had was to share my struggle with forgiveness in hopes to find support in trying to move through this with compassion and understanding, which is my true hope.
I do not see Buddhism as a series of greeting card pick me ups that will get me through a bad day. I see it as life philosophy that will get me closer to being a person that in recognizing the preciousness of life, I can deal with the suffering that goes with an open heart and open mind. It's hard to let go of habits and patterns that you have worked hard on maintaining your entire life. I began studying Buddhism before this happened and was able to take that knowledge and help me to relate with a difficult childhood with compassion. The experience was profound and life changing. I know it is possible. The difference now is that the childhood was behind me, and my marriage is front of me. This is infinitely more challenging. I do know that had I not had some basic knowledge or experience with studying Buddhism, we wouldn't be together right now.
Sometimes when it feels so hard, i get singularly focused with my anger at my back. Those are the times that it feels that Buddhism is to hard, because I don't WANT to believe what I know to be true. I happen to work in the field of psychology so I deeply understand that hurt people hurt people. As any therapist, counselor knows, it can be hard to take your own advice. I see my husband as a human being with flaws, like we all have. I know that he poured water on a very negative seed. His actions were a result of suffering, some of which I help to create and some of which came long before me. I know that no single act happens alone. We are all products of something. I know that sometimes you need the rug pulled out of front under you and that can be a catalyst for change. It's just hard when it hurts so much.
I appreciate that you're sharing your struggle. It's so difficult to just sit with it. I feel completely alone. I may as well be invisible.
The trouble for me is that I do see the possibilities for freedom from suffering. Being new to the practice, I wouldn't consider it second nature. It really isn't just some kind of nice self talk that I use to get me through traffic jams. There has been times when I was able to recognize my habitual response to fear as I saw myself shutting down, breath in my what I recognize to be raw pain and try to do something different-Train in the three difficulties. I am trying. I guess my struggle is around it being so hard. You get tired of sadness, and hurt and fear. If you have been working hard since you were a child developing patterns of self-preservation, they are almost more than habit, it's almost preverbal.
I am unskilled, I know and probably avoiding sitting with the feelings I have because I have the idea that I will be so overwhelmed that I couldn't function. Especially since most of the time, the pain we are dealing with is not always what's in front of your face. I have resigned myself to do what I can and be ok with that. Holding on to expectations that I will somehow feel better at any given moment usually results in disappointment, because when it bubbles up to the surface I am bummed because I just felt happy.
The intention I had was to share my struggle with forgiveness in hopes to find support in trying to move through this with compassion and understanding, which is my true hope.
I do not see Buddhism as a series of greeting card pick me ups that will get me through a bad day. I see it as life philosophy that will get me closer to being a person that in recognizing the preciousness of life, I can deal with the suffering that goes with an open heart and open mind. It's hard to let go of habits and patterns that you have worked hard on maintaining your entire life. I began studying Buddhism before this happened and was able to take that knowledge and help me to relate with a difficult childhood with compassion. The experience was profound and life changing. I know it is possible. The difference now is that the childhood was behind me, and my marriage is front of me. This is infinitely more challenging. I do know that had I not had some basic knowledge or experience with studying Buddhism, we wouldn't be together right now.
Sometimes when it feels so hard, i get singularly focused with my anger at my back. Those are the times that it feels that Buddhism is to hard, because I don't WANT to believe what I know to be true. I happen to work in the field of psychology so I deeply understand that hurt people hurt people. As any therapist, counselor knows, it can be hard to take your own advice. I see my husband as a human being with flaws, like we all have. I know that he poured water on a very negative seed. His actions were a result of suffering, some of which I help to create and some of which came long before me. I know that no single act happens alone. We are all products of something. I know that sometimes you need the rug pulled out of front under you and that can be a catalyst for change. It's just hard when it hurts so much.
Wow I was really moved by your response. Thank you.
I have because I have the idea that I will be so overwhelmed that I couldn't function.
I think its just an idea. Just thinking. But I recognize the compassion in thinking that way so perhaps there is accompanying wisdom too. We do have to hold it together a bit?
I think a big part of practicing tonglen and studying emptiness is to prepare the ground of good intentions. Genuine good wishes for yourself and others.
I remember I had had a bad time with a psychotic break, trouble with my studies/profession, trouble in my personal life and accompanying emotional instability and depression....
I was eating lunch with my friends and a little fly had gotten its wings wet and tangled and was lying on my wrist. I carefuly untangled the wings and set it in the sun.
My friend who was older than me and incidentally muslim said "Jeff you are going to be fine"...
5deep, nobody said it's easy or that you can do it overnight. There's a reason they call it "practice", you know. It takes time, determination, and courage to walk this path, but the payoff is worth the effort - and then some. I myself came from a place where I thought there was no hope and that there was no way I could lift myself out of the suffering I was experiencing (all of my own making, btw), but I made a decision that I would do my best. If I got knocked down a million times, then I would get up a million times. It's still not easy, I still have problems, but I am far, far better off than I was 20 or 30 years ago. So it can happen, but it takes time, and you may not even notice the changes that are taking place in you until long after they actually happen. You just have to start where you're at and move on. There's no other way to do it.
Always nice to see you show up, with your well-intended wisdom. : ^ )
Just curious about your take, and so had to ask, “How does free will of this sort (that you allude to) live along side of no-self,” in your opinion? This has always seemed rather paradoxical to me.
I know this is a big monkey wrench thrown into the works, S9 smiles innocently.
But I am just wondering how tradition thoughts approach this. (Absolutely no offence intended.) : ^ )
Juggling ideas…and trying not to drop some, isn’t always easy. : ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
When you say "free will", are you referring to my statement that we're in charge of our lives? I don't know, I don't see any conflict. As long as we're stuck in this deluded state of believing in our false self, then we should act as if it is true and act accordingly. When we become enlightened, then we will undoubtedly understand that this was just a necessary step to get us to the goal. The traditional teachings say the same thing, that the Dharma is only an illusion, a false but necessary method to get to where we already are but don't realize it. In other words, we have to use the delusion to dismantle itself because that's really the only tool we have to work with. Does that make sense?
Interested in hearing people's thoughts on forgiving others who have hurt or betrayed you. While intellectually it's seems clear to recognize that the suffering of the other and know that should want to help them in their suffering, it is hard to let go of anger and resentment, feel the sadness and move on. Any thoughts?
Meditation can help with this but sometimes it takes time.
5deep, nobody said it's easy or that you can do it overnight. There's a reason they call it "practice", you know. It takes time, determination, and courage to walk this path, but the payoff is worth the effort - and then some..................
Palzang
Precisely.
In the village where I stayed in the Goan ghats, children had a two-hour walk in the morning and the same again in the evening to get to and from school. Most of them seemed happy to do it (if tired!) because they believed, having been persuaded by their parents, that education is the door to improvement of life. Four hours a day: and I asked myself - and still do - who am I to complain if half an hour of sitting meditation makes my back hurt?
I have confidence that being with my anger and rage is the best way to transform it. Neither holding on to it nor pushing it away.
I can relate to you here sky. If there is a way past the anger or rage, then it is not something that can be forced one way or another. For me, not pushing it away is usually the easier of the two, as I am eager to boldly face the reality of my feelings. However, allowing those feelings to arise without falling into the mental space of "holding on to it" has proven more difficult. Fortunately, with the distance of time and the truth of impermanence, things do eventually diminish, and we are able to move on, but in the case of seriously traumatic experiences, this can take a very, very long time indeed. Along that journey, allowing ourselves the space to fully feel our anger, sorrow, or frustration is important because they are real.
So the trick is to walk that balance beam of the middle way...allowing honest feelings to be nothing less than what they really and fully are in the moment, while also practicing the craft of releasing them and returning to equanimity.
I can only say that there is one thing that is very easy to do, and that is to offer loving kindness to you in the spirit of dhamma fellowship and understanding. I only wish more things in this life were as easy and gentle. :smilec:
Buddha said that the mind is “One Pointed,” and can only entertain one thought at a time. This would mean IMO that we cannot entertain anger and at the same exact time as entertain thoughts of equanimity.
So the question always comes back to this. Which thought are you going to feed?
Any thought that you withdraw your attention from, doesn’t continue to live and prosper, because attention is the food for thought. To the same degree that you stop feeding any one thought, to that same exact degree it begins to fade and die.
Forcing a thought away doesn’t work, because that is war and really a form of attention.
But, simply turning your head away, and onto something more productive like meditative concentration for one, or breath for another, or even running a 4 min mile, is purely capable of starving away our negative attachments to hurtful memories.
P: When you say "free will", are you referring to my statement that we're in charge of our lives?
S9: Yes. However, I often wonder if ego isn’t just pretending to be in charge. It is not that change doesn’t happen. But, I see it as more of a byproduct of “Clear Sight” than actual manipulation. (And yet, at the same time I manipulate all of the time.)
And, where does surrender fit in with freewill? I’m thinking either we are in charge or something is actually coming about within us more like a rose blooming, and we only think that we are doing it.
I do think however, that like everyone, I seem to be caught between two paradigms, that being conventional wisdom and Ultimate Wisdom.
P: I don't know, I don't see any conflict. As long as we're stuck in this deluded state of believing in our false self, then we should act as if it is true and act accordingly.
S9: But doesn’t that continue to feed our illusions?
P: When we become enlightened, then we will undoubtedly understand that this was just a necessary step to get us to the goal.
S9: However if we continue to think and act in a deluded fashion, how would we ever dig our way out? Isn’t that a little like continuing to over eat and hoping to lose weight?
P: The traditional teachings say the same thing, that the Dharma is only an illusion, a false but necessary method to get to where we already are but don't realize it. In other words, we have to use the delusion to dismantle itself because that's really the only tool we have to work with. Does that make sense?
S9: Yes, what you are saying makes eminent sense, because this is the way that we have always functioned, and it is comfortable. But, how do we dismantle something while continuing to use it? Don’t we have to begin to think and act in a whole new way?
Buddha said that the mind is “One Pointed,” and can only entertain one thought at a time. This would mean IMO that we cannot entertain anger and at the same exact time as entertain thoughts of equanimity.
So the question always comes back to this. Which thought are you going to feed? S9
Pema Chodron has said "If we learn to open our hearts, anyone, including the people who drive us crazy, can be our teacher."
If someone has hurt us, then there is a lesson to learn from that experience. "Feeding" anger is certainly never a good idea, but neither is denying or repressing it. The simple answer is that we must deal with things as they actually are.
The more years I practice the more I discover that stronger sentiments that used to keep a vise grip in the mind now fade much quicker. Thus equanimity as a one-pointed phenomenon can be attained in most any moment I choose...
...well, except for the more difficult moments.
Also, STAYING within equanimity is easy when it is easy, and difficult when it is difficult. The monkey mind does have its moments where it loves to intrude, and I just have to chuckle at watching the wheels go round and round!
So it is back to the cushion for me later tonight when my work day is done.
I'm interested in hearing from someone who really struggles with this. I'm recovering from PTSD, and what's up is rage.
I'm using tonglen as a practice.
Sky Dancer, my ex-wife is a woman who definitely experienced PTSD because of childhood abuse. Her situation was different from yours in that her trauma was one she experienced as a child, but rage is something I can definitely attest to. Again, the difference was rage that she lived with long term and it became a way of relating throughout her life. We had twin girls and I often talk to them about their mom's rage and how it affects them.
A part of her life that perpetuates her rage, is how she clings to the belief that she is a victim. With this way of viewing the world, she justifies unleashing that rage on people around her. I am not suggesting that is the way you have reacted and you are obviously doing considerable work in resolving the issues created in your life, but the issue of rage is something you both experience. Her rage is one she makes very visible and she lashes out. She seems to unleash it in order to control her environment and her need for control is obvious. The problem is of course, her trauma has long since passed and no matter how she tries to quell the storm within, she holds onto something she cannot control (her past).
What becomes obvious to both my daughters and myself is how things would change if she could let go of her need to control her environment, and change the way she views herself. If only she could shift her focus away from others and looked inwards.
This is work you are doing. I admire your courage in sitting with the anger and becoming familiar with it. When people say it is going to make you crazy, they have no idea what they are talking about. I have seen the aftermath when someone vents anger and tries to take control of their environment rather than sitting with it. Now that is crazy.
I wonder if rage can actually BE controlled. The reason that I say this is that it seems, if you don’t simply rant and lash out, it may manifest in other ways like withholding (love) for instance. This could be an outcome of withholding your rage. I don’t believe that you can just choose one thing to withhold and not have some spill over into other parts of your life and personality.
Withholding is kind/of a reverse forcing, is it not?
In that case, WHAT does one do with their rage? Especially if, like in the case of your wife ,it has become a deeply rooted habit?
If rage is energy, and I believe it is, perhaps the only remedy is to redirect it into rage against something like poverty or even weight lifting, (a productive use of that same energy)?
Energy isn't either good or bad, it is its application that makes All of the difference.
I fear that directing rage inward in order to examine it might end up in illness, depression, or even suicide, (that is if rage is a poison). Than you would do better to dispose of the rage/poison, rather than to ingest it.
The inward work than, might very well be something more like deciding where you would direct that rage/energy, until it naturally dissipated.
I don't pretend to have any answers to this...only wondering about alternatives.
I wonder if rage can actually BE controlled. The reason that I say this is that it seems, if you don’t simply rant and lash out, it may manifest in other ways like withholding (love) for instance. This could be an outcome of withholding your rage. I don’t believe that you can just choose one thing to withhold and not have some spill over into other parts of your life and personality.
Withholding is kind/of a reverse forcing, is it not?
In that case, WHAT does one do with their rage? Especially if, like in the case of your wife ,it has become a deeply rooted habit?
If rage is energy, and I believe it is, perhaps the only remedy is to redirect it into rage against something like poverty or even weight lifting, (a productive use of that same energy)?
Energy isn't either good or bad, it is its application that makes All of the difference.
I fear that directing rage inward in order to examine it might end up in illness, depression, or even suicide, (that is if rage is a poison). Than you would do better to dispose of the rage/poison, rather than to ingest it.
The inward work than, might very well be something more like deciding where you would direct that rage/energy, until it naturally dissipated.
I don't pretend to have any answers to this...only wondering about alternatives.
Respectfully,
S9
S9
I believe there is a distinction between bottling the rage up and sitting with it. I could see bottling it up and trying to ignore it, would be a recipe for disaster.
Jack Kornfield describes it well in "The Wise Heart".
"With mindfulness, a natural intuition and discrimination begin to tell us which feeling calls for action and which, if acted upon, will lead to unnecessary suffering. Some feelings hold important messages, and we need to respond and address the conditions from which they arise. Equally often, feeling states are simply present, the atmosphere in which we live. Even when they are strong, we don't need to suppress them, nor grasp and identify with them. Through all these permutations, we don't have to worry: no emotion is final."
He goes on to state "emotions are not to be feared. They are simply energy. When they are recognized, acknowledged, investigated, we are liberated from our clinging. And then we can choose. We can act on those that need a response and let others become freed as the energy of life."
Even rage can pass quickly. Our propensity to feed it gives it legs. When we find a way to interrupt the flow of it mindfully, it loses much of its hold. When parents are dealing with their children and power struggles ensue where they are becoming angry, I ask them to slow things down, and consider providing their children with options that are acceptable to them (the parent). When they do this, it changes the entire dynamic. The anger dissipates completely. It is a productive use of their time rather than indulging themselves in rage which is counter-productive and makes a bad situation worse. Mindfullness can be used to build relationships too.
I fully understand that mindfulness has great efficacy in one’s life. I have been practicing it, off the cushion mostly, for decades. But, here is my question. How can one take something as strong as rage, and remain neutral to it, only viewing it from one step back, and still at the same time indulge in the manipulation of it like not ranting and lashing out. If you are manipulating it, are you in fact actually remaining neutral and merely learning about it as it takes place naturally?
I guess what I am really asking is; do you actually go right after rage, itself, or in fact do you deal with what surrounds it and feeds it, and in this way cut out its legs from beneath it?
Another question if you will. What is the fine distinction between mindfulness (on the cushion) where you sit with your rage, and come to understand it in this way, and actually indulging in ruminating?
Quote:
Have you ever been stressed all day because you can’t stop thinking of something unfair that happened that morning? Or the previous week? This human tendency to obsess, trying to work things out in one's mind, is common. When these thoughts turn more negative and brooding, that's known as rumination.
Rumination is rather common--according to a poll on this site, roughly 95% of my readers find themselves in rumination mode either sometimes or often--but it can be harmful to physical and emotional well-being.
I think the big difference in how I deal with the negative is that, I first disallow it in action, and only then do I deal with the whiplash that ensues from that decision. I started this and it works very well for me, because of something that Lin Chi said, which hit me where I live.
Lin Chi said (paraphrased, sorry can’t remember the exact quote) Declare yourself to be the way you want to be, (almost like a vow or not to moving from that place) and see what comes forward to say that you cannot.
This is not the same as what is called "stuffing," (AKA suppressing), because you acknowledge your rage (with me it was blaming) but you disallow that rage/blame to any longer dictate your actions.
Most importantly you begin to both cut off and starve the roots of that rage/blame in this way. The roots will come forward, out of hiding, when you start to starve them.
How in meditation or otherwise to get to the "soft side" of anger, resentment and agitation? While I can recognize that one wrong does not a man make, it is hard not to feel wronged and anger, etc. This feels especially true when lies, deception and pain are the apparent choices of the person who hurt me. Sometimes compassion feels like weakness to me, sometimes it doesn't. It's hard not to get stuck in the "How could you?" All that question does is feed my misery, but the urge to soooo strong to keep asking. I am listening to Don't Bite the Hook right now for guidance. She talked about how anger makes you so singularly focused that it makes it difficult to see causes and conditions. Sometimes I feel like I don't want to see causes and conditions. I am a broken person too...aren't we all? I could have just as easily done the same, but didn't. So I feel some resentment at offering him the compassion that he never gave to me. That he was so singularly focused on his own needs, that he ignored the suffering the he was creating for me. I know his behavior was born of ignorance and fear, but it is terrible hurtful to me nonetheless.
While I believe in the Buddhist teachings, sometimes I feel like it is too hard. I am not that person. I can apply them in everyday life but someone bothers me in traffic or cuts in front of me in line or when daily things don't go my way. But when my husband betrays me in the worst way and then asks for forgiveness, it feels impossible at times and is exhausting all the time.
Soon before this happened, I would say I was more prone to jealousy, suspicion and anxiety. But I had been studying Buddhism for a while, meditating and really felt myself letting go of those negative ideas. It was as I was more trusting, less suspicious that he betrayed me. My inclination now is to return to the place of fear where I existed before this happened. I have this crazy notion that somehow maybe I could have stopped it had I been more fearful.
Sorry for the rambling. Ignore if you like, I realize it is not all that philosophical. Just have a storm brewing.
Hi Fivedeep,
What a wonderful post. There's so much juice in it, so much honesty and pain, but also so much self-awareness and understanding. You may feel lost but it's clear that you know what path to take and even though it seems overwhelmingly difficult at times you're still willing to take it. That's raw courage.
Simplifying things could make the journey easier for you as I'm sure you already know. So simplify, simplify, simplify. You already have everything you need; your grounding in psychology, your courage and hard-won wisdom, the will to heal and develop, and the Buddhadhamma. I have no doubt that you'll find peace sooner than you think.
I fully understand that mindfulness has great efficacy in one’s life. I have been practicing it, off the cushion mostly, for decades. But, here is my question. How can one take something as strong as rage, and remain neutral to it, only viewing it from one step back, and still at the same time indulge in the manipulation of it like not ranting and lashing out. If you are manipulating it, are you in fact actually remaining neutral and merely learning about it as it takes place naturally? I guess what I am really asking is; do you actually go right after rage, itself, or in fact do you deal with what surrounds it and feeds it, and in this way cut out its legs from beneath it?
Not usually in the moment. I find that some of the most rage filled people I deal with, can be parents who feel their children are being defiant and in there face. At that moment, I ask them to recognize what is happening inside of them in order to understand the dynamics of what is transpiring between them and their child. For example, if they are feeling anger and rage when they are dealing with their child, they are likely feeling challenged, they may become indignant to this, they may begin telling themselves stories such as "I am the parent here so I need to control", "I need to control this situation or my child will be out of control", "if I allow my child to win, I will be a bad parent and all manner of evil will befall them". None of this is true but it is the kind of story people believe and act on. The fear of losing control of the situation fuels the anxiety, fear and anger that ends up in a rant or worse.
What I ask them to do is step back, and engage in a different behavior altogether. I ask them to begin thinking about what is acceptable to them, given the circumstances and then offer it as choices to there children. I teach them that the end of power struggling with your children, is possible when you quit struggling and begin empowering the child. When people start seeing positive results from their actions, they are not only empowering their child, but the parent themselves feels empowered. They are learning mastery of the situation and all of this anger dissipates. Skillful responses that make the relationship better rather than forceful ones that promise to undermine. It is complex in some ways but it involves remaining true to what you value, being aware of what is truly effective and aim your behavior in the right direction.
Another question if you will. What is the fine distinction between mindfulness (on the cushion) where you sit with your rage, and come to understand it in this way, and actually indulging in ruminating?
Being aware of your emotion in the moment is important. It doesn't have to be full on, contemplated awareness, just being cognizant that this anger is not going to help you in this situation is being mindful enough. As I mentioned earlier, disrupting this ruminating with a different intention, and remaining true to your values promises a much better outcome.
I think the big difference in how I deal with the negative is that, I first disallow it in action, and only then do I deal with the whiplash that ensues from that decision. I started this and it works very well for me, because of something that Lin Chi said, which hit me where I live.
Lin Chi said (paraphrased, sorry can’t remember the exact quote) Declare yourself to be the way you want to be, (almost like a vow or not to moving from that place) and see what comes forward to say that you cannot.
This is not the same as what is called "stuffing," (AKA suppressing), because you acknowledge your rage (with me it was blaming) but you disallow that rage/blame to any longer dictate your actions.
Most importantly you begin to both cut off and starve the roots of that rage/blame in this way. The roots will come forward, out of hiding, when you start to starve them.
I think that rage and blame are close cousins.
I agree that they do behave in very similar ways (blame and rage). Interrupting the behavior is key. And in your case, what you are doing I would say is becoming mindful. I think the major difference in what I am suggesting, is to replace the rage with more skillful behavior such as listening and offering solutions.
Sky Dancer, my ex-wife is a woman who definitely experienced PTSD because of childhood abuse. Her situation was different from yours in that her trauma was one she experienced as a child, but rage is something I can definitely attest to. Again, the difference was rage that she lived with long term and it became a way of relating throughout her life. We had twin girls and I often talk to them about their mom's rage and how it affects them.
A part of her life that perpetuates her rage, is how she clings to the belief that she is a victim. With this way of viewing the world, she justifies unleashing that rage on people around her. I am not suggesting that is the way you have reacted and you are obviously doing considerable work in resolving the issues created in your life, but the issue of rage is something you both experience. Her rage is one she makes very visible and she lashes out. She seems to unleash it in order to control her environment and her need for control is obvious. The problem is of course, her trauma has long since passed and no matter how she tries to quell the storm within, she holds onto something she cannot control (her past).
What becomes obvious to both my daughters and myself is how things would change if she could let go of her need to control her environment, and change the way she views herself. If only she could shift her focus away from others and looked inwards.
This is work you are doing. I admire your courage in sitting with the anger and becoming familiar with it. When people say it is going to make you crazy, they have no idea what they are talking about. I have seen the aftermath when someone vents anger and tries to take control of their environment rather than sitting with it. Now that is crazy.
Best to you. You deserve the very best.
Thank you so much.
As it turns out I have Complex PTSD which means I have trauma from my childhood as when as the adult experience.
I'm learning the difference between rage and anger. Anger can be useful to express, rage is not. Rage is more related to the sense of violation from the abuse. Learning to just sit with the rage takes all I can do.
Luckily it comes and goes. I appreciate being able to tell the truth about how it is.
I just went through a rough patch for about a week and I had a nightmare which seemed to have popped the bubble of poison for now.
Letting go of the victim mindset is not easy especially when most of what bothers me the most occurred when I was a small child.
Thank you again for your kindness. Your wife is fortunate to have such a kind and understanding spouse who practices the buddhadharma so well.
AB: The fear of losing control of the situation fuels the anxiety, fear and anger that ends up in a rant or worse.
S9: Again and again, this fear of losing control shows up in multiple life situations. If we cannot control life, we at least want to be protected from life. Most of our stories, (including our self image) I believe, are a form of armor against this chaos of vulnerability, and perhaps even the lack of meaning we find in most pain and suffering.
It is no accident that Buddha used the fact that “Suffering Is,” as the catalyst for his path to Liberation.
A: What I ask them to do is step back, and engage in a different behavior altogether.
S9: Conception or perspective is the seed. Action is Merely the fruit.
I think that the greatest gift that we can give anyone, including our children, is to allow them to be themselves and love them for who THEY are. Most parents are trying to replicate themselves in their children. No wonder, there are power struggles.
Resentment will always grow out of a situation where one party in the relationship is not being allowed self-expression with acceptance.
Too often, we move people, and our children, around as if they are only furniture in our world or universe. I think this is because our natural perspective (since childhood) is that we are living in our center (our subjective universe). We look out at everything and everyone as though they were surrounding us. However, we must remember that everyone else feels this way too, like they are the center of their world or universe, and must adjust our thinking to include their needs, their wants, and their self expression as well. We all do this, of course, to some extent, some more than others. But, when we forget to do this trouble starts to brew.
Most people would say, "Yes, of course" to what I just said, above, I believe. But saying it and doing it is a whole other thing. It takes skill. Skills MUST be developed.
A: Being aware of your emotion in the moment is important. It doesn't have to be full on, contemplated awareness, just being cognizant that this anger is not going to help you in this situation is being mindful enough.
S9: Consequences are a great learning tool. Not only watching your self acting foolishly, but observing what it brings about can create both clarity AND motivation. Without the suffering, would we ever learn?
Suffering IS the great teacher.
If what you are doing, no matter how sensible it may seem on paper…is causing suffering, it is time to rethink.
A: I think the major difference in what I am suggesting, is to replace the rage with more skillful behavior such as listening and offering solutions.
S9: I agree with what you are saying, above, in that the solution will replace previous misjudgments, and unskillful actions. However I believe too that Clarity is automatically self-correcting. See something clearly enough, and whatever was broken will begin to heal. That simple. The mistake or illusion will simply fall away, like leaves in autumn.
Thank you for your well thought out reply. I really enjoyed it.
As it turns out I have Complex PTSD which means I have trauma from my childhood as when as the adult experience.
I'm learning the difference between rage and anger. Anger can be useful to express, rage is not. Rage is more related to the sense of violation from the abuse. Learning to just sit with the rage takes all I can do.
Luckily it comes and goes. I appreciate being able to tell the truth about how it is.
I just went through a rough patch for about a week and I had a nightmare which seemed to have popped the bubble of poison for now.
Letting go of the victim mindset is not easy especially when most of what bothers me the most occurred when I was a small child.
Thank you again for your kindness. Your wife is fortunate to have such a kind and understanding spouse who practices the buddhadharma so well.
Love and blessings,
sky
Thanks for the recognition but I would like to clarify, my wife and I did divorce. I was not near as skilled in the past so the marriage did not survive. The happy end however is that I have learned more skillful means thanks to Buddhism. We are now friends and I find I have rediscovered the things that attracted me to her in the first place. It is a nice balance and I enjoy the relationship as it is today.
Thanks for the recognition but I would like to clarify, my wife and I did divorce. I was not near as skilled in the past so the marriage did not survive. The happy end however is that I have learned more skillful means thanks to Buddhism. We are now friends and I find I have rediscovered the things that attracted me to her in the first place. It is a nice balance and I enjoy the relationship as it is today.
Namaste
The point is you learned alot from the experience and you remain friends. That's quite an accomplishment. It's not too surprising that the marriage didn't make it.
I really appreciate the thoughtful responses to the question I posed and the discussion that has developed. Reading these responses has been so helpful and has deescalated me a few times. I am grateful for the time that you all have taken to provide input and support.
Comments
You must have really gotten a good kicking (in the hospital?) I mean I've taken a couple of beatings in the past, but I just sort of forgot about them. I was angry about being robbed but there's no way I would be able to squeeze any cash back out of this person.
I guess forgiveness for me is a moot point because I just carry on. The guy who robbed me was a real asshole but now he's a family guy. He's moved on and quite good to talk to in passing... but I won't trust him again. We all know what he's like...
OH HA HA, he's a thieving bastard, but a loveable one at that. Lol, no problem, never mind. Wish I could get that cash out of him right now. Really need it..
Neither restraining, nor liberating.
Couldn't help it!
I'm using tonglen as a practice.
You also need to be able to let go of the pain and connect with your heart's wish for happiness, relief, and goodness. Likewise you need to not grasp onto (the thinking of) those things and be able to let go of them to begin the inbreath.
It takes practice and a teacher can surely help. I don't think tonglen is the problem so much as it is interwoven with teachings on emptiness. Part of the bodhisattva vow is NOT to teach emptiness to beings who are hostile to such an idea OR emotionally unstable.
Au contraire. I believe that everything that happens to you is a direct result of the conditions you yourself have created, even if it seems totally unrelated to you.
Palzang
I am unskilled, I know and probably avoiding sitting with the feelings I have because I have the idea that I will be so overwhelmed that I couldn't function. Especially since most of the time, the pain we are dealing with is not always what's in front of your face. I have resigned myself to do what I can and be ok with that. Holding on to expectations that I will somehow feel better at any given moment usually results in disappointment, because when it bubbles up to the surface I am bummed because I just felt happy.
The intention I had was to share my struggle with forgiveness in hopes to find support in trying to move through this with compassion and understanding, which is my true hope.
I do not see Buddhism as a series of greeting card pick me ups that will get me through a bad day. I see it as life philosophy that will get me closer to being a person that in recognizing the preciousness of life, I can deal with the suffering that goes with an open heart and open mind. It's hard to let go of habits and patterns that you have worked hard on maintaining your entire life. I began studying Buddhism before this happened and was able to take that knowledge and help me to relate with a difficult childhood with compassion. The experience was profound and life changing. I know it is possible. The difference now is that the childhood was behind me, and my marriage is front of me. This is infinitely more challenging. I do know that had I not had some basic knowledge or experience with studying Buddhism, we wouldn't be together right now.
Sometimes when it feels so hard, i get singularly focused with my anger at my back. Those are the times that it feels that Buddhism is to hard, because I don't WANT to believe what I know to be true. I happen to work in the field of psychology so I deeply understand that hurt people hurt people. As any therapist, counselor knows, it can be hard to take your own advice. I see my husband as a human being with flaws, like we all have. I know that he poured water on a very negative seed. His actions were a result of suffering, some of which I help to create and some of which came long before me. I know that no single act happens alone. We are all products of something. I know that sometimes you need the rug pulled out of front under you and that can be a catalyst for change. It's just hard when it hurts so much.
Wow I was really moved by your response. Thank you.
I think its just an idea. Just thinking. But I recognize the compassion in thinking that way so perhaps there is accompanying wisdom too. We do have to hold it together a bit?
I remember I had had a bad time with a psychotic break, trouble with my studies/profession, trouble in my personal life and accompanying emotional instability and depression....
I was eating lunch with my friends and a little fly had gotten its wings wet and tangled and was lying on my wrist. I carefuly untangled the wings and set it in the sun.
My friend who was older than me and incidentally muslim said "Jeff you are going to be fine"...
Palzang
When you say "free will", are you referring to my statement that we're in charge of our lives? I don't know, I don't see any conflict. As long as we're stuck in this deluded state of believing in our false self, then we should act as if it is true and act accordingly. When we become enlightened, then we will undoubtedly understand that this was just a necessary step to get us to the goal. The traditional teachings say the same thing, that the Dharma is only an illusion, a false but necessary method to get to where we already are but don't realize it. In other words, we have to use the delusion to dismantle itself because that's really the only tool we have to work with. Does that make sense?
Palzang
Meditation can help with this but sometimes it takes time.
Precisely.
In the village where I stayed in the Goan ghats, children had a two-hour walk in the morning and the same again in the evening to get to and from school. Most of them seemed happy to do it (if tired!) because they believed, having been persuaded by their parents, that education is the door to improvement of life. Four hours a day: and I asked myself - and still do - who am I to complain if half an hour of sitting meditation makes my back hurt?
"How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"
I can relate to you here sky. If there is a way past the anger or rage, then it is not something that can be forced one way or another. For me, not pushing it away is usually the easier of the two, as I am eager to boldly face the reality of my feelings. However, allowing those feelings to arise without falling into the mental space of "holding on to it" has proven more difficult. Fortunately, with the distance of time and the truth of impermanence, things do eventually diminish, and we are able to move on, but in the case of seriously traumatic experiences, this can take a very, very long time indeed. Along that journey, allowing ourselves the space to fully feel our anger, sorrow, or frustration is important because they are real.
So the trick is to walk that balance beam of the middle way...allowing honest feelings to be nothing less than what they really and fully are in the moment, while also practicing the craft of releasing them and returning to equanimity.
I can only say that there is one thing that is very easy to do, and that is to offer loving kindness to you in the spirit of dhamma fellowship and understanding. I only wish more things in this life were as easy and gentle. :smilec:
So the question always comes back to this. Which thought are you going to feed?
Any thought that you withdraw your attention from, doesn’t continue to live and prosper, because attention is the food for thought. To the same degree that you stop feeding any one thought, to that same exact degree it begins to fade and die.
Forcing a thought away doesn’t work, because that is war and really a form of attention.
But, simply turning your head away, and onto something more productive like meditative concentration for one, or breath for another, or even running a 4 min mile, is purely capable of starving away our negative attachments to hurtful memories.
Warm Regards,
S9
P: When you say "free will", are you referring to my statement that we're in charge of our lives?
S9: Yes. However, I often wonder if ego isn’t just pretending to be in charge. It is not that change doesn’t happen. But, I see it as more of a byproduct of “Clear Sight” than actual manipulation. (And yet, at the same time I manipulate all of the time.)
And, where does surrender fit in with freewill? I’m thinking either we are in charge or something is actually coming about within us more like a rose blooming, and we only think that we are doing it.
I do think however, that like everyone, I seem to be caught between two paradigms, that being conventional wisdom and Ultimate Wisdom.
P: I don't know, I don't see any conflict. As long as we're stuck in this deluded state of believing in our false self, then we should act as if it is true and act accordingly.
S9: But doesn’t that continue to feed our illusions?
P: When we become enlightened, then we will undoubtedly understand that this was just a necessary step to get us to the goal.
S9: However if we continue to think and act in a deluded fashion, how would we ever dig our way out? Isn’t that a little like continuing to over eat and hoping to lose weight?
P: The traditional teachings say the same thing, that the Dharma is only an illusion, a false but necessary method to get to where we already are but don't realize it. In other words, we have to use the delusion to dismantle itself because that's really the only tool we have to work with. Does that make sense?
S9: Yes, what you are saying makes eminent sense, because this is the way that we have always functioned, and it is comfortable. But, how do we dismantle something while continuing to use it? Don’t we have to begin to think and act in a whole new way?
Respectfully,
S9
Pema Chodron has said "If we learn to open our hearts, anyone, including the people who drive us crazy, can be our teacher."
If someone has hurt us, then there is a lesson to learn from that experience. "Feeding" anger is certainly never a good idea, but neither is denying or repressing it. The simple answer is that we must deal with things as they actually are.
The more years I practice the more I discover that stronger sentiments that used to keep a vise grip in the mind now fade much quicker. Thus equanimity as a one-pointed phenomenon can be attained in most any moment I choose...
...well, except for the more difficult moments.
Also, STAYING within equanimity is easy when it is easy, and difficult when it is difficult. The monkey mind does have its moments where it loves to intrude, and I just have to chuckle at watching the wheels go round and round!
So it is back to the cushion for me later tonight when my work day is done.
Sky Dancer, my ex-wife is a woman who definitely experienced PTSD because of childhood abuse. Her situation was different from yours in that her trauma was one she experienced as a child, but rage is something I can definitely attest to. Again, the difference was rage that she lived with long term and it became a way of relating throughout her life. We had twin girls and I often talk to them about their mom's rage and how it affects them.
A part of her life that perpetuates her rage, is how she clings to the belief that she is a victim. With this way of viewing the world, she justifies unleashing that rage on people around her. I am not suggesting that is the way you have reacted and you are obviously doing considerable work in resolving the issues created in your life, but the issue of rage is something you both experience. Her rage is one she makes very visible and she lashes out. She seems to unleash it in order to control her environment and her need for control is obvious. The problem is of course, her trauma has long since passed and no matter how she tries to quell the storm within, she holds onto something she cannot control (her past).
What becomes obvious to both my daughters and myself is how things would change if she could let go of her need to control her environment, and change the way she views herself. If only she could shift her focus away from others and looked inwards.
This is work you are doing. I admire your courage in sitting with the anger and becoming familiar with it. When people say it is going to make you crazy, they have no idea what they are talking about. I have seen the aftermath when someone vents anger and tries to take control of their environment rather than sitting with it. Now that is crazy.
Best to you. You deserve the very best.
I wonder if rage can actually BE controlled. The reason that I say this is that it seems, if you don’t simply rant and lash out, it may manifest in other ways like withholding (love) for instance. This could be an outcome of withholding your rage. I don’t believe that you can just choose one thing to withhold and not have some spill over into other parts of your life and personality.
Withholding is kind/of a reverse forcing, is it not?
In that case, WHAT does one do with their rage? Especially if, like in the case of your wife ,it has become a deeply rooted habit?
If rage is energy, and I believe it is, perhaps the only remedy is to redirect it into rage against something like poverty or even weight lifting, (a productive use of that same energy)?
Energy isn't either good or bad, it is its application that makes All of the difference.
I fear that directing rage inward in order to examine it might end up in illness, depression, or even suicide, (that is if rage is a poison). Than you would do better to dispose of the rage/poison, rather than to ingest it.
The inward work than, might very well be something more like deciding where you would direct that rage/energy, until it naturally dissipated.
I don't pretend to have any answers to this...only wondering about alternatives.
Respectfully,
S9
S9
I believe there is a distinction between bottling the rage up and sitting with it. I could see bottling it up and trying to ignore it, would be a recipe for disaster.
Jack Kornfield describes it well in "The Wise Heart".
"With mindfulness, a natural intuition and discrimination begin to tell us which feeling calls for action and which, if acted upon, will lead to unnecessary suffering. Some feelings hold important messages, and we need to respond and address the conditions from which they arise. Equally often, feeling states are simply present, the atmosphere in which we live. Even when they are strong, we don't need to suppress them, nor grasp and identify with them. Through all these permutations, we don't have to worry: no emotion is final."
He goes on to state "emotions are not to be feared. They are simply energy. When they are recognized, acknowledged, investigated, we are liberated from our clinging. And then we can choose. We can act on those that need a response and let others become freed as the energy of life."
Even rage can pass quickly. Our propensity to feed it gives it legs. When we find a way to interrupt the flow of it mindfully, it loses much of its hold. When parents are dealing with their children and power struggles ensue where they are becoming angry, I ask them to slow things down, and consider providing their children with options that are acceptable to them (the parent). When they do this, it changes the entire dynamic. The anger dissipates completely. It is a productive use of their time rather than indulging themselves in rage which is counter-productive and makes a bad situation worse. Mindfullness can be used to build relationships too.
Namaste
I fully understand that mindfulness has great efficacy in one’s life. I have been practicing it, off the cushion mostly, for decades. But, here is my question. How can one take something as strong as rage, and remain neutral to it, only viewing it from one step back, and still at the same time indulge in the manipulation of it like not ranting and lashing out. If you are manipulating it, are you in fact actually remaining neutral and merely learning about it as it takes place naturally?
I guess what I am really asking is; do you actually go right after rage, itself, or in fact do you deal with what surrounds it and feeds it, and in this way cut out its legs from beneath it?
Another question if you will. What is the fine distinction between mindfulness (on the cushion) where you sit with your rage, and come to understand it in this way, and actually indulging in ruminating?
Quote:
Have you ever been stressed all day because you can’t stop thinking of something unfair that happened that morning? Or the previous week? This human tendency to obsess, trying to work things out in one's mind, is common. When these thoughts turn more negative and brooding, that's known as rumination.
Rumination is rather common--according to a poll on this site, roughly 95% of my readers find themselves in rumination mode either sometimes or often--but it can be harmful to physical and emotional well-being.
http://stress.about.com/od/psychologicalconditions/a/rumination.htm
I think the big difference in how I deal with the negative is that, I first disallow it in action, and only then do I deal with the whiplash that ensues from that decision. I started this and it works very well for me, because of something that Lin Chi said, which hit me where I live.
Lin Chi said (paraphrased, sorry can’t remember the exact quote) Declare yourself to be the way you want to be, (almost like a vow or not to moving from that place) and see what comes forward to say that you cannot.
This is not the same as what is called "stuffing," (AKA suppressing), because you acknowledge your rage (with me it was blaming) but you disallow that rage/blame to any longer dictate your actions.
Most importantly you begin to both cut off and starve the roots of that rage/blame in this way. The roots will come forward, out of hiding, when you start to starve them.
I think that rage and blame are close cousins.
Respectfully,
S9
What a wonderful post. There's so much juice in it, so much honesty and pain, but also so much self-awareness and understanding. You may feel lost but it's clear that you know what path to take and even though it seems overwhelmingly difficult at times you're still willing to take it. That's raw courage.
Simplifying things could make the journey easier for you as I'm sure you already know. So simplify, simplify, simplify. You already have everything you need; your grounding in psychology, your courage and hard-won wisdom, the will to heal and develop, and the Buddhadhamma. I have no doubt that you'll find peace sooner than you think.
Not usually in the moment. I find that some of the most rage filled people I deal with, can be parents who feel their children are being defiant and in there face. At that moment, I ask them to recognize what is happening inside of them in order to understand the dynamics of what is transpiring between them and their child. For example, if they are feeling anger and rage when they are dealing with their child, they are likely feeling challenged, they may become indignant to this, they may begin telling themselves stories such as "I am the parent here so I need to control", "I need to control this situation or my child will be out of control", "if I allow my child to win, I will be a bad parent and all manner of evil will befall them". None of this is true but it is the kind of story people believe and act on. The fear of losing control of the situation fuels the anxiety, fear and anger that ends up in a rant or worse.
What I ask them to do is step back, and engage in a different behavior altogether. I ask them to begin thinking about what is acceptable to them, given the circumstances and then offer it as choices to there children. I teach them that the end of power struggling with your children, is possible when you quit struggling and begin empowering the child. When people start seeing positive results from their actions, they are not only empowering their child, but the parent themselves feels empowered. They are learning mastery of the situation and all of this anger dissipates. Skillful responses that make the relationship better rather than forceful ones that promise to undermine. It is complex in some ways but it involves remaining true to what you value, being aware of what is truly effective and aim your behavior in the right direction.
Being aware of your emotion in the moment is important. It doesn't have to be full on, contemplated awareness, just being cognizant that this anger is not going to help you in this situation is being mindful enough. As I mentioned earlier, disrupting this ruminating with a different intention, and remaining true to your values promises a much better outcome.
I agree that they do behave in very similar ways (blame and rage). Interrupting the behavior is key. And in your case, what you are doing I would say is becoming mindful. I think the major difference in what I am suggesting, is to replace the rage with more skillful behavior such as listening and offering solutions.
Namaste
As it turns out I have Complex PTSD which means I have trauma from my childhood as when as the adult experience.
I'm learning the difference between rage and anger. Anger can be useful to express, rage is not. Rage is more related to the sense of violation from the abuse. Learning to just sit with the rage takes all I can do.
Luckily it comes and goes. I appreciate being able to tell the truth about how it is.
I just went through a rough patch for about a week and I had a nightmare which seemed to have popped the bubble of poison for now.
Letting go of the victim mindset is not easy especially when most of what bothers me the most occurred when I was a small child.
Thank you again for your kindness. Your wife is fortunate to have such a kind and understanding spouse who practices the buddhadharma so well.
Love and blessings,
sky
AB: The fear of losing control of the situation fuels the anxiety, fear and anger that ends up in a rant or worse.
S9: Again and again, this fear of losing control shows up in multiple life situations. If we cannot control life, we at least want to be protected from life. Most of our stories, (including our self image) I believe, are a form of armor against this chaos of vulnerability, and perhaps even the lack of meaning we find in most pain and suffering.
It is no accident that Buddha used the fact that “Suffering Is,” as the catalyst for his path to Liberation.
A: What I ask them to do is step back, and engage in a different behavior altogether.
S9: Conception or perspective is the seed. Action is Merely the fruit.
I think that the greatest gift that we can give anyone, including our children, is to allow them to be themselves and love them for who THEY are. Most parents are trying to replicate themselves in their children. No wonder, there are power struggles.
Resentment will always grow out of a situation where one party in the relationship is not being allowed self-expression with acceptance.
Too often, we move people, and our children, around as if they are only furniture in our world or universe. I think this is because our natural perspective (since childhood) is that we are living in our center (our subjective universe). We look out at everything and everyone as though they were surrounding us. However, we must remember that everyone else feels this way too, like they are the center of their world or universe, and must adjust our thinking to include their needs, their wants, and their self expression as well. We all do this, of course, to some extent, some more than others. But, when we forget to do this trouble starts to brew.
Most people would say, "Yes, of course" to what I just said, above, I believe. But saying it and doing it is a whole other thing. It takes skill. Skills MUST be developed.
A: Being aware of your emotion in the moment is important. It doesn't have to be full on, contemplated awareness, just being cognizant that this anger is not going to help you in this situation is being mindful enough.
S9: Consequences are a great learning tool. Not only watching your self acting foolishly, but observing what it brings about can create both clarity AND motivation. Without the suffering, would we ever learn?
Suffering IS the great teacher.
If what you are doing, no matter how sensible it may seem on paper…is causing suffering, it is time to rethink.
A: I think the major difference in what I am suggesting, is to replace the rage with more skillful behavior such as listening and offering solutions.
S9: I agree with what you are saying, above, in that the solution will replace previous misjudgments, and unskillful actions. However I believe too that Clarity is automatically self-correcting. See something clearly enough, and whatever was broken will begin to heal. That simple. The mistake or illusion will simply fall away, like leaves in autumn.
Thank you for your well thought out reply. I really enjoyed it.
Respectfully,
S9
Thanks for the recognition but I would like to clarify, my wife and I did divorce. I was not near as skilled in the past so the marriage did not survive. The happy end however is that I have learned more skillful means thanks to Buddhism. We are now friends and I find I have rediscovered the things that attracted me to her in the first place. It is a nice balance and I enjoy the relationship as it is today.
Namaste
I'm lucky in that regard.