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What to say to people who somehow think "war" is the only answer?
Brian
Detroit, MI Moderator
This is slightly political, but the discussion is timeless and is only political because of our current climate (war with iraq + american presidential elections coming up soon).
One of the things you hear often is "War was the only way to {fill in the blank}..." or "this war was justified".... And the people who are saying these things really believe that.
What do you say to them? In terms that they can comprehend?
One of the things you hear often is "War was the only way to {fill in the blank}..." or "this war was justified".... And the people who are saying these things really believe that.
What do you say to them? In terms that they can comprehend?
0
Comments
Really, the answer is "War was the only way to {fill in the blank} without taking the time or intelligence necessary to solve the problem otherwise"
Palestinian: God gave us this land!
Jew: Nu-UH, God gave this land to US!
Bomb Explodes, repeat.
It is rather sad the lengths the powers that be will go to to justify their ambitions. If everyone could just be straight and say,"Hey, We are going to start a war and kill more than 100,000 innocent bystanders so that my partners stock can go up a quarter point." I think there would need not be a justification for war. I don't want to get off on a tangent here but I am just tired of the talking heads on TV lying ALL THE TIME.
Hate to burst everyone's bubble but there are times when violence is reasonable and necessary. When determined to be necessary, violence should of course be used in the most minimal amount needed to affect the desired result. The key is this: violence should be a last REASONABLE option and should be enacted without emotions such as anger or hate so that it is controlled as much as possible.
Unfortunately, many people understand and respect one thing...physical strength. These people interpret kindness for weakness. They wait for someone to extend a hand of friendship so they can chop it off.
I used to get all huffed up about this issue of ignorance. Now, however, I just silently pray that the person living in true ignorance will come to no harm and that one day awareness will dawn on them.
It is people like this that remind me why I'm a Bodhisattva.
Peacefulness is invincible in that it is unmovable.
Welcome to the site. I look forward to getting to know you.
Adiana
It was great for about an hour... Then the real rain came, which I also really enjoyed - a true downpour!
Thank you for your greetings everyone - I look forward to getting to know the all of you!
:bigclap:
Don't hesitate to PM me about anything!
Peace
"The nonviolent approach does not immediately change the heart of the oppressor, it first does something to the hearts and souls of those committed to it. It gives them a new self-respect; It calls up resources of strength and courage that they did not know they had."
"Never could I advocate nonviolence in this country and not advocate nonviolence for the whole world."
"Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time: the need for man to overcome oppression and violence. Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation for such method is love."
"As you press on for justice, be sure to move with dignity and discipline, using only the weapon of love. Let no man pull you so low as to hate him. Always avoid violence. If you succumb to the temptation of using violence in your struggle, unborn generations will be the recipients of a long and desolate night of bitterness, and your chief legacy to the future will be an endless reign of meaningless chaos."
~Martin Luther King Jr.
I don't think I could have said it any better, but then I can't compete with someone who actually lived it.
Going vegetarian is one good way, which I am trying hard now to do. I enjoy doing it thou.
cheers,
Still, I have a hard time with war when I think of all the people killed during these two incidents. How many mothers, fathers, sons and daughters died.
When someone says, "We had to do it. We had to get the people that attacked us!"
I just remind them that we never found any weapons of mass destruction that we were lied to about and we still don't have Osama. A lot of our children have died going over there under the lie of "weapons of mass destruction" and many Iraqi people have died over this lie.
I really have nothing other to discuss on this subject when it's brought up. I may politely listen to the other persons side of the story - but usually, remove myself from the discussion as soon as possible.
While I abhore what Saddam has done - he was doing all of those horrible things to Iraqi people when
1) we set him up in Iraq
2) When we used him in power during our struggle with Iran
3) Kept him as an ally even when he was mustard gassing people in Iraq.
Why were we so ready to jump into a war when Iraq invaded Kuwait? Why did we wait so long to get involved in stopping the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia?
There are a lucky few countries that have enough oil to make the US take notice of a countries plight. Those countries that don't have goods like oil, we leave hanging for way too long.
Michael
I guess I'm missing your point, my friend.
Michael
(Yay I quoted a sticker! How smart of me!)
Unfortunately, "Jesus" has bombed, slain, waged war, killed, murdered, tortured and massacred more people than I think he realizes!
At least that's what has been done in his name for the last 2,000 years.
Michael
Stalin was a madman as well. Some say he was even worse than Hitler. How though, in a peaceful and non-violent way might we stop the Holocaust, the Armenian Massacre, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, and countless other madmen without the use of force.
Taking on racist white America, as noble as it may be, is much different than fighting a fascist, paranoid, dictator bent on conquering the world and eradicating every Jew, homosexual, gypsy, and handicapped person on the planet. I think violence in certain circumstances is a necessity and even a duty to those strong enough to stop such oppression. People who even spoke against such atrocities as listed were usually taken away to Siberia or the death camps never to be seen or heard from again. :-/
Where would democracy, liberty, and freedom be today if the Brits, Americans, French, Poles, and countless other countries not stood against the 3rd Reich? Where would we be if the millions of civilians and militia not stood up against the overwhelming Nazis in the ruins of Stalingrad?
In conclusion, as much as I like peace and practice it, others do not. All we can do now is learn from our mistakes and never let what happened in the 20th century happen again.
You make a great point, emmak. I think at first it was a nation in the throws of depression when someone finally stepped up to the table and got the economy moving again.
Think about it - trying to raise a family and you don't have a good job, not enough money to go around, can't make ends meet. Then because of a "party" coming to power - providing for your family is no longer such a struggle.
I think a lot of people originally bought into it not having any idea where it was going.
I've seen documentaries and read stories about after the Allies went through various concentration camps - they brought people from nearby villages and made them look at the bones, bodies, furniture and lamps made from the tattooed skin of the victims, the furnaces, the shower room, etc. I saw one show where people were hurling at what they were seeing. Many of them had no idea (and maybe they didn't want to have any idea) what was going on.
That's why they also had the Nuremburg trials. There were many, many bad people that got caught up in the rise of power.
I'm still pretty sure that my dentist is Dr. Mengele. The things he does to my teeth are horrific.
Michael
You do not need to 'over-egg the cake' when presenting the wise words of MLK.
You damage your case when you say The United States is built on a policy of genocide: the genocide of the First Americans. Whilst the enslavement of thousands of Africans is now seen as a terrible crime against humanity, the deliberate slaughter of the Nations, the daily breach of treaties made with them and the poverty still inflicted on them goes far beyond the treatment of any other community in Turtle Island.
I am never surprised, although always saddened, when our nations resort to war: it is what the 'nation state' is built on and survives by.
And you say Simon was being mean for posting a well thought out statement that didn't agree with yours?
Michael
Hahaha, I guess I'm the bad guy this time. The stereotypical "evil, close-minded American". But to be fair it is not like the United States is the ONLY country founded on wars, geneocides, and crimes against indigenous peoples.
I don't think you're the bad guy this time or any time. I sometimes get on my damn soap-box (not saying that you were - just me) and say things a little too emphatic.
As for the US being the only country... I have to disagree with you my friend. Many, many countries over the course of humanity on earth have done this. You can start just with Egypt and the spreading of Rome - all the structures built under slave labor, the salt mines, the quarries, all the countries taken over, all the deaths all the wars - many, many countries have done this.
I'm not saying that it was okay that the US did the things they did, the slavery, the lies and deceit to the indigenous peoples of this country and then relagating them to the worst land in the country (because we couldn't farm it or raise cattle), etc. When you read that some of our fine soldiers in this country used to have saddles made out of the breasts of native american women or tabacco pouches made out of the scrotums of native american men - America has done many atrocities to Americans.
Unfortunatley, if we were to give America back to the Native Americans, and all of us went back to Europe - Australians had to give back Australia to the Aboriginees, and then the English had to return that area to the Picts and Gaels, and then the Gaels had to give back Brittany and the Norse had to give back what little they kept (odd ... that the Norse went so many places and pillages so many peoples but eventually ended up being absorbed into the peoples the took over...) where would it all end?
I think we have to find peace with where things are at. Otherwise, we'll start more wars like other countries that have been warring over the West Bank for decades...
Michael
Elohim....
Never mind my ranting... I thought I read "is like the United States is the ONLY..."
I mis-read you. Sorry about that. My hookd on foniks aint' working so gude.
Michael
I have nothing against Jesus himself. I really like some of his teachings from the New Testament. I also really like the gnostic Nag Hammadi texts. Jesus in my view was an extraordinary individual. I respect him as I do the Buddha and all the other great teachers that have arisen since the dawn of time. I of course have certain doubts as to him being the only way to Truth, or the only son of God as opposed to all of mankind. I feel that his teachings have been misunderstood by the modern world.
This defensiveness against Christianity is a personal problem I have obviously. I do my best to have an open view, but sometimes my habitual close-mindedness sets in. I went from hating anything to do with Jesus, to reading his teachings and seeing the wisdom in them. It seems I still get heated over this topic though. In the other forum I was defending Christianity while here it seems like I'm attacking it. I'm falling between the two extremes.
Some days the Middle Way is a lot harder for me to walk than others. Must be one of those days.
I have no problem with Jesus or Christianity really. I just have problems with everything that has been done in the name of Christianity by people. I'm still coming to grips with it.
Michael
I am well aware that many USians and Canadians feel the deep guilt of the Ndn holocaust.
Please accepot my genuine apologies.
As for the Slavery of the African American. They were not the only ones taken from their homelands and put into Captivity for the entertainment or livilyhood of another race. It still is happening today.
As our brother, Palzang, and my refugee friends will testify, it is the policy of the government of the PRC in respect of Tibet.
No.....I don't need to relax... YOU NEED TO RELAX, buddy!!!!
Michael
If only that were all! The Peoples' Army invaded Tibet in order, allegedly, to suppress the feudal system and bring (Marxist) democracy with elected leadership.
The native peoples of Tibet have been systematically tortured, imprisoned and murdered. The monasteries have been destroyed, treasures looted, libraries burned, monks and nuns subjected to appalling abuse. The eco-system of Tibet is both unique and fragile but the PRC have used the country as a dumping-ground for nuclear waste and have looted the natural resources.
Thousands of Chinese are being transplanted into Tibet as the native populations are decimated. H. H. the Panchen Lama has been a political prisoner since he was six - he is now 16. It is a criminal offence to possess a picture of the Dalai Lama.
And this has been going on for over 50 years!
We can be most thankful that, despite the cowardice and self-interest of the great powers, Pandit Nehru took the brave step of giving sanctuary to the Dalai Lama in 1959. Hundreds of Tibetans have made the dangerous (and illegal) trek across the Himalayas to safety, including the Karmapa Lama in 2001, risking life and limb.
Unfortunately, Tibet does not rank high on the agenda of the West, which prefers to kowtow to China - a much more profitable market.
For more information:
http://www.freetibet.org/
I fear that it is a myth that Buddhist nations are peaceable. Tibet has a long and bloody history of imperialism, and Nepal is ruled by murderous autocrats.
Love the batman icon, but I have to sort of disagree.
War doesn't solve racism. And when you study history in a bit more depth, you will find that many Americans supported some of the nasty aspects of the Nazis, and, in fact, the U.S.A. continued involuntary human experimentation that resulted in death through the 1970's. But we glorious Americans opted to use black people as lab rats instead of the jews. What did WWII really "solve"? We FAILED to attack the beliefs. National Socialism is still alive and kicking, racism is still alive and kicking, ditto xenophobia, colonialism, et al.
The pen is mightier than the sword
You can beat some folks over the head here and there, but if the ugly ideas remain, you have done nothing but prolong the agony.
How many times, and in how many different ways do we have to say "love your neighbor as yourself", then get a clue that when looked at from above, everyone is a neighbor.
Batman always tried rehab for the Joker -- he wanted to change the guys mind. In what percentage of conflicts did Batman kill the opponent? Big dif between temporary physical restraint and killing the person. Learn from your icon.
We've grown up, now we fight them in the name of peace.
Wow... that is an excellent phrase.
Can I use it?
-bf
Sorry, Emmak, but I don't see how you could get that Apocalypse Now glorifies war! It's an anti-war movie, one of the best ever made. Did you watch the same film I did?
Palzang
Although I do agree with you about the aim of the film, and about its extraordinary quality, Palzang, I think I can see Emmak's point too.
The film does, of course, villify war but, at the same time, it portrays its horror, just as Remarque does in All Quiet On The Western Front. There is an argument that could suggest that such representation is also a covert glorification. The horror of war in Picasso's Guernica is all the more telling because it goes beyond any attempt at realism. There is something voyeuristic in the 'special effects': like watching a rape in a film against violence against women.