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What would be required to achieve Enlightenment (in the Nirvanic sense) in this lifetime?
Would one have to become a monk/nun, and devote one's life to meditation and practice?
What would one have to do, specifically, to reach Nirvana?
I like S & S9's responses. I would add to that:
1) FORGIVE YOURSELF! I believe that most negative karma is accumulated by subsequent clinging to our thoughts after committing so called negative acts. If we were able to, as suggested many times above, "let go" of the so-called negative acts, then the negative impact would be severely minimised to such an extent that the need (or desire or karmic forces or will or whatever you want to call it) to commit these acts will reduce over time without any focus on these acts themselves. I believe that this is our fundamental poison of this age in the West: Self-hatred, anxiety, low self-esteem.
2) Get a teacher!
3) Don't learn too much, do not turn Buddhism into a ego rewarding pursuit of scholarship. Carefully noting that this is not arguing against scholarship, only the motivation. If you hate the idea of being a scholar than it will possibly be a good course!
4) Learn the dharma but concentrate on getting a "feel" for the dharma rather than knowledge of it. Think of reading the dharma as a form of absorption, allow it to filter into the mind stream and plant the karmic seeds necessary for future progress. Don't treat like studying for an exam or test, allow it to “colour” reality.
5) Don't obsess with understanding, similar to point 4 above, don't worry if you don't get something. The seed has been planted whether intellectual understanding occurs or not. If you are a regular meditator you will know how many times something just "pops" into the mind that was previously off the radar.
6) Re-read texts that are relevant to your practise many times over the years. Our minds are blind to certain things. These things are different from person to person and change over time but they are often there written in plain sight, its just our focus lies in different areas until the time is right.
7) Don't worry too much about emptiness. Here especially, do not get an exceptionally detailed intellectual understanding on it, as the conceptual models formed will likely be very hard to dislodge. Allow it to arise naturally through meditation practise. If you think you've "found" it, don't worry whether you have. If you despair that you haven't found it, don't worry either. Try to be skilful, if you find you have a strong affinity for present day scientific view of reality- question things like the idea of fundamental particle and discover the limits of present knowledge. You don't need to become a scientist yourself but just need to plant a few "counter seeds". Be aware of the fact our lives are experience/subjective based yet our scientific knowledge is all objective based. This can help break down the concretization of reality.
8) Work with metaphors, they are very good at planting seeds for the future. Some good ones that I like are: The luminosity of the mind is like the sun in the sky, the emptiness of the mind is like the space in the sky, the obfuscations of the mind are like the clouds in the sky. As the clouds thin more of the sun shines through. The weak sun has little power to melt the ice but as the clouds thin the ice has no choice but to melt.
9) Avoid people of great negativity. Especially in the dharma. Those that seem to find fault in the dharma of others and are certain that their way is the only way. Another anology (countering sectarianism) that I vaguely remember is Indra’s net filled with diamonds. Each diamond reflects all other diamonds in its facets. The dharma is like this as well. Beware that the negativity you see may be a reflection of your own negativity so that some discernment is required here.
10) As stated by others above: PRACTISE, PRACTISE, PRACTISE. Practise at home with meditation, practise while commuting to work, practise on the toilet, practise while eating, practise while watching TV, practise while....... . Most importantly strive to practise regularly with meditation, but remember to completely forgive yourself when you fail (refer to rule #1).
11) You can do it as a layperson. Its been done before, is being done now, and will be done in the future. Start where you are now: single, married, young, old, male, female, doesn’t matter. Some space is often needed from the ups and downs of modern life but this space does not have to be literal space. It can be the space found by personal renunciation, the same tasks can still be performed but with some degree of mental seperation. Or if you like, mental renunciation rather than physical renunciation.
12) Treat yourself as a warrior. If you follow a boddhisattva path or even if not, identify yourself as a warrior either striving for the liberation of all sentient beings, or of the destroyer of all (internal) foes. This will give you a certain amount of power and energy. This is possibly one of the major powers in this age, the power of the ideal warrior (if not over glorified in the West). In this case the warrior is involved in the pursuit of the ultimate. The warrior never gives up no matter what the odds.
13) Hence, never give up!
Finally, these things work for me, they may not be for you. In that case please happily disregard.
not essential to get into the first level namely, the Right View
this is the starting point
in Buddha's Teaching this is called Stream-enter
it is not essential up to the first three levels namely, stream enter, once-returner and non-returner
Lay people have become arhants in the Suttas. I think think of 3 right now, there are probably more, and many more that are not recorded in the Suttas (for every one arhant mentioned in the Suttas there are probably hundreds more). The three I can remember now are Bahiya, Suddhodana (Buddha's father), Uggasena.
There are also modern examples of lay arhants but I shall not cite as it can cause doubts.
I can see that you have given this a good deal of thought, and tried real hard to manifest it in your actions.
Let me share a few things that your words made me think of, and maybe they will prove useful to you and others, or at least be entertaining. : ^ )
People make up an idea about who they should be, and over time pretend to themselves that this is in fact who they are. When this doesn’t turn out to be the living fact, they turn on themselves and judge themselves rather harshly, thinking that this somehow distances them from the part of themselves that messed up. This is magic thinking, doesn’t work, and suffering follows in its wake.
The whole idea of not forgiving yourself is based on a punishment paradigm that has been proven to be ineffective in education. They have found actually that positive reinforcement works as a superior method. So what I guess I am saying here is that we can LOVE ourselves into line; a little like training a puppy to pee on the paper. Instead of beating up on the little fellow or ourselves, we simply place it on the paper, or us back on task, again and again, until these positive habits are put into place.
I often think of meditation, for instance, as a positive addiction.
I agree with you that a good deal of what it means to experience the Truth of Buddhism comes like a feeling (not just sensation, mind you,but maybe something closer to intuition), but certainly not only words. Insights come in many forms. I have often had very right brain types of insights as both pictures and animated pictures as well. It is good to be receptive on multiple levels.
Everything is your teacher. Good things draw us in the right direction, and bad things make sure we keep on going. ; ^ )
I have often reread books from earlier in my life and found that I totally overlooked many great ideas, or indicators. I think I have become a bit subtler, and see thing a little deeper than I did before. I used to be looking more for the bells and whistles.
Growth is not so much in a straight line, or in accumulation of facts, as we might believe in the beginning. I find that rather I have dropped more and more with time, and things have become a lot simpler. In other words, I am now seeing things that before I was overlooking. It is all about slowing down and noticing, each stepping stone in this journey is a perspective.
Lastly, emptiness isn’t really void, at least not in the way that our mind presents such things. It is simply empty of mental objects and concepts. The Emptiness that Buddhism refers to is actually Full of complete satisfaction, relaxation, and total freedom to name only a few perspectives on this.
Hello nibs,
Can you please explain to me what is the "First Stage of Enlightenment"? And what is "Stream-Entry"? Are they different? I think I experienced the first stage during crisis six months ago. I got a terrible backlash from Mara. So how do I get into the stream despite Mara? And why is it a cool ride?
SKYE (:
Hi SKYE,
The first stage of enlightenment is stream entry. There one and the same. Could you please explain in detail , as in what type of experience it was that gave such a terrible backlash from "Mara"?
It is a cool ride because it changes you, it changes the perception base line. I'm talking from a little further down the path now but the mind feels much more spacious. The "I" feels smaller, less solid. This is hard to explain. There is instant access to 8 mental absorbtions through will of mind alone, the ability to get fruitions when you want, and fruition bliss which comes after a blip out/cessation . A feeling of having done what I set out to do. But the ride continues...and it ain't all blissful. You start cycling though the nanas/knowledges starting at the 4th up to equanimity of formations, fruition, review then back down to 4th to constantly repeat. The dukkha nanas(also known in some circles as the dark night) are in between all that.They are not very pleasant. But the mind is 1000 times more concentrated to pre-path. Life is one big adventure.
Not sure if you are just taking the piss, but I'll play along for now. Could you be more specific of how such a "frightful" episode was experienced at a physical and mental level...what sensations were felt, what mental phenomena occured?
Less poetic license please. If you are serious about getting stream entry that is...
What would be required to achieve Enlightenment (in the Nirvanic sense) in this lifetime?
Would one have to become a monk/nun, and devote one's life to meditation and practice?
What would one have to do, specifically, to reach Nirvana?
To each his own, and no one way would satisfy all. The true goal is for the mind to move across the teachings, turn them on their head, and come out with a renewed sight that lessens and ultimately deconstructs the trends of mind that can lead to suffering.
To study of any of the Buddhist teachings and put forth effort to understanding, in whatsoever situation you find yourself in, is the driving force. Effort begets insight begets renewed effort and progress.
Be serious in the effort to turn the words into your own direct experience, because the words can only guide....they are not the Dharma itself, but a representation and a way of guidance for us to see the true Dharma.
Diligence. Strive on diligently, as the Buddha admonished his monks. That is the best advice that this particular transient phenomena can advise. Take it or leave it, but at least think about it.
What would be required to achieve Enlightenment (in the Nirvanic sense) in this lifetime?
Would one have to become a monk/nun, and devote one's life to meditation and practice?
What would one have to do, specifically, to reach Nirvana?
Nirvana and Buddhahood are two very different things.
One need not be a monastic for either Buddhahood or Nirvana.
Both are attainable in this lifetime through various methods.
We should only be careful in considering all traditions. Buddhahood as a single word is generally used only in Mahayana schools, and is synonymous with full enlightenment. The Theravada speak only of a 'Buddha', not of Buddhahood unless they are adopting the term for their own purposes much as 'monk' is adopted to attempt a conveyance of Buddhist monastic life, yet is used differently and colored by perception.
In the Theravada, there is only one Buddha at a time. Memory of this individual and their teachings is what consists of their era. When memory fails, and the teachings expounding ways to liberation are lost, there is darkness. A further Buddha may arise, of conditions, in the future and will at that time be the only Buddha that is known.
We often work at cross-purposes without even knowing it, simply because we do not wish to encumber our minds with contemplating upon things we've already decided are not worthwhile endeavors. An easy example is the man who does not feel it worthwhile to study any other religion but that which he is taught as a child, for the mind is ever selfish and takes this as it's own truth, not to be defied.
We should only be careful in considering all traditions. Buddhahood as a single word is generally used only in Mahayana schools, and is synonymous with full enlightenment. The Theravada speak only of a 'Buddha', not of Buddhahood unless they are adopting the term for their own purposes much as 'monk' is adopted to attempt a conveyance of Buddhist monastic life, yet is used differently and colored by perception.
In the Theravada, there is only one Buddha at a time. Memory of this individual and their teachings is what consists of their era. When memory fails, and the teachings expounding ways to liberation are lost, there is darkness. A further Buddha may arise, of conditions, in the future and will at that time be the only Buddha that is known.
We often work at cross-purposes without even knowing it, simply because we do not wish to encumber our minds with contemplating upon things we've already decided are not worthwhile endeavors. An easy example is the man who does not feel it worthwhile to study any other religion but that which he is taught as a child, for the mind is ever selfish and takes this as it's own truth, not to be defied.
Namaste
Exactly my point.
When speaking of enlightenment, nirvana, and buddhahood we should keep in mind that they are vastly different things with vastly different interpretations.
We're on the same wavelength 'sort of'....the sharp end of the stick, the point, was that rather than saying one is not the other, we might rather say both can be taken differently depending upon tradition. In Theravada, they are dissimilar concepts. In Mahayana they are similar concepts. One view is a mirror of one view; many views are as a diamond.
In all instances we're speaking from our own experience and so the best thing to get across to others would be that they must do their own research and come to their own conclusions. More often I think such sayings that are attributed to the Buddha that mean the same must surely have at some point been uttered by him.
In Theravada, they are dissimilar concepts. In Mahayana they are similar concepts.
Namaste
They are just as dissimilar in Mahayana as they are in Theravada.
If they were similar the bodhisattva vow would be frivolous nonsense (my Simon Cowell impersonation) .
We'll just end up in an argument, and my own tendency is to go 'too far', to write 'too much' and I'll have some huge page full of my own explanation that even then could be debated. So, I'll just step aside. We do mean the same things, only in different ways.
I wouldn't say that. The best thing about this forum specifically is that it is a melting pot of different viewpoints; different keys to try and unlock an individual mind. It is in fact an insanely useful thing to have unless you get addicted/cling to it and stick around for the sole purpose of asserting your superiority over others. That happens and is unhelpful. Those who are here truly to try and understand, or to help others understand, are right where they should be (IMHO).
The best thing to do is to remain mindful of the reasons you are here, each time you are here. This is a tool more than anything else, and thoughts of 'belonging' to the forum should be guarded against.
I wouldn't say that. The best thing about this forum specifically is that it is a melting pot of different viewpoints; different keys to try and unlock an individual mind. It is in fact an insanely useful thing to have unless you get addicted/cling to it and stick around for the sole purpose of asserting your superiority over others. That happens and is unhelpful. Those who are here truly to try and understand, or to help others understand, are right where they should be (IMHO).
The best thing to do is to remain mindful of the reasons you are here, each time you are here. This is a tool more than anything else, and thoughts of 'belonging' to the forum should be guarded against.
Namaste
You're quite right, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment. Though I do sometimes waste time on discussion forums...:o
What would be required to achieve Enlightenment (in the Nirvanic sense) in this lifetime?
Would one have to become a monk/nun, and devote one's life to meditation and practice?
What would one have to do, specifically, to reach Nirvana?
What a good question! One that Thomas Merton posed too.
The hard truth is that the example of those of whom we know who appear to have done so have devoted the greater part of their life to practice, which is what makes it so hard (and even, I very much fear, almost impossible) for those of us who live ordinary lives of quiet desperation. Even the Buddha gave up everything and we, in our clinging to relationships and possessions, jobs and families, try to persuade ourselves that the odd hour out of our busy days is enough.
Precisely the same problem exists for Christians, carefully ignoring the instruction to "sell all you have and follow".
Comments
I like S & S9's responses. I would add to that:
1) FORGIVE YOURSELF! I believe that most negative karma is accumulated by subsequent clinging to our thoughts after committing so called negative acts. If we were able to, as suggested many times above, "let go" of the so-called negative acts, then the negative impact would be severely minimised to such an extent that the need (or desire or karmic forces or will or whatever you want to call it) to commit these acts will reduce over time without any focus on these acts themselves. I believe that this is our fundamental poison of this age in the West: Self-hatred, anxiety, low self-esteem.
2) Get a teacher!
3) Don't learn too much, do not turn Buddhism into a ego rewarding pursuit of scholarship. Carefully noting that this is not arguing against scholarship, only the motivation. If you hate the idea of being a scholar than it will possibly be a good course!
4) Learn the dharma but concentrate on getting a "feel" for the dharma rather than knowledge of it. Think of reading the dharma as a form of absorption, allow it to filter into the mind stream and plant the karmic seeds necessary for future progress. Don't treat like studying for an exam or test, allow it to “colour” reality.
5) Don't obsess with understanding, similar to point 4 above, don't worry if you don't get something. The seed has been planted whether intellectual understanding occurs or not. If you are a regular meditator you will know how many times something just "pops" into the mind that was previously off the radar.
6) Re-read texts that are relevant to your practise many times over the years. Our minds are blind to certain things. These things are different from person to person and change over time but they are often there written in plain sight, its just our focus lies in different areas until the time is right.
7) Don't worry too much about emptiness. Here especially, do not get an exceptionally detailed intellectual understanding on it, as the conceptual models formed will likely be very hard to dislodge. Allow it to arise naturally through meditation practise. If you think you've "found" it, don't worry whether you have. If you despair that you haven't found it, don't worry either. Try to be skilful, if you find you have a strong affinity for present day scientific view of reality- question things like the idea of fundamental particle and discover the limits of present knowledge. You don't need to become a scientist yourself but just need to plant a few "counter seeds". Be aware of the fact our lives are experience/subjective based yet our scientific knowledge is all objective based. This can help break down the concretization of reality.
8) Work with metaphors, they are very good at planting seeds for the future. Some good ones that I like are: The luminosity of the mind is like the sun in the sky, the emptiness of the mind is like the space in the sky, the obfuscations of the mind are like the clouds in the sky. As the clouds thin more of the sun shines through. The weak sun has little power to melt the ice but as the clouds thin the ice has no choice but to melt.
9) Avoid people of great negativity. Especially in the dharma. Those that seem to find fault in the dharma of others and are certain that their way is the only way. Another anology (countering sectarianism) that I vaguely remember is Indra’s net filled with diamonds. Each diamond reflects all other diamonds in its facets. The dharma is like this as well. Beware that the negativity you see may be a reflection of your own negativity so that some discernment is required here.
10) As stated by others above: PRACTISE, PRACTISE, PRACTISE. Practise at home with meditation, practise while commuting to work, practise on the toilet, practise while eating, practise while watching TV, practise while....... . Most importantly strive to practise regularly with meditation, but remember to completely forgive yourself when you fail (refer to rule #1).
11) You can do it as a layperson. Its been done before, is being done now, and will be done in the future. Start where you are now: single, married, young, old, male, female, doesn’t matter. Some space is often needed from the ups and downs of modern life but this space does not have to be literal space. It can be the space found by personal renunciation, the same tasks can still be performed but with some degree of mental seperation. Or if you like, mental renunciation rather than physical renunciation.
12) Treat yourself as a warrior. If you follow a boddhisattva path or even if not, identify yourself as a warrior either striving for the liberation of all sentient beings, or of the destroyer of all (internal) foes. This will give you a certain amount of power and energy. This is possibly one of the major powers in this age, the power of the ideal warrior (if not over glorified in the West). In this case the warrior is involved in the pursuit of the ultimate. The warrior never gives up no matter what the odds.
13) Hence, never give up!
Finally, these things work for me, they may not be for you. In that case please happily disregard.
Cheers,
WK
Cheers,
WK
There are also modern examples of lay arhants but I shall not cite as it can cause doubts.
I can see that you have given this a good deal of thought, and tried real hard to manifest it in your actions.
Let me share a few things that your words made me think of, and maybe they will prove useful to you and others, or at least be entertaining. : ^ )
People make up an idea about who they should be, and over time pretend to themselves that this is in fact who they are. When this doesn’t turn out to be the living fact, they turn on themselves and judge themselves rather harshly, thinking that this somehow distances them from the part of themselves that messed up. This is magic thinking, doesn’t work, and suffering follows in its wake.
The whole idea of not forgiving yourself is based on a punishment paradigm that has been proven to be ineffective in education. They have found actually that positive reinforcement works as a superior method. So what I guess I am saying here is that we can LOVE ourselves into line; a little like training a puppy to pee on the paper. Instead of beating up on the little fellow or ourselves, we simply place it on the paper, or us back on task, again and again, until these positive habits are put into place.
I often think of meditation, for instance, as a positive addiction.
I agree with you that a good deal of what it means to experience the Truth of Buddhism comes like a feeling (not just sensation, mind you,but maybe something closer to intuition), but certainly not only words. Insights come in many forms. I have often had very right brain types of insights as both pictures and animated pictures as well. It is good to be receptive on multiple levels.
Everything is your teacher. Good things draw us in the right direction, and bad things make sure we keep on going. ; ^ )
I have often reread books from earlier in my life and found that I totally overlooked many great ideas, or indicators. I think I have become a bit subtler, and see thing a little deeper than I did before. I used to be looking more for the bells and whistles.
Growth is not so much in a straight line, or in accumulation of facts, as we might believe in the beginning. I find that rather I have dropped more and more with time, and things have become a lot simpler. In other words, I am now seeing things that before I was overlooking. It is all about slowing down and noticing, each stepping stone in this journey is a perspective.
Lastly, emptiness isn’t really void, at least not in the way that our mind presents such things. It is simply empty of mental objects and concepts. The Emptiness that Buddhism refers to is actually Full of complete satisfaction, relaxation, and total freedom to name only a few perspectives on this.
Warm Regards,
S9
see
once i said in this forum
there are 84000 ways to nirvana
so nothing for disapointment
we all can make this happen, because we all are in the same BOAT:p
practice, practise, open eyes for everything arround you
Cheers, WK
Hi SKYE,
The first stage of enlightenment is stream entry. There one and the same. Could you please explain in detail , as in what type of experience it was that gave such a terrible backlash from "Mara"?
It is a cool ride because it changes you, it changes the perception base line. I'm talking from a little further down the path now but the mind feels much more spacious. The "I" feels smaller, less solid. This is hard to explain. There is instant access to 8 mental absorbtions through will of mind alone, the ability to get fruitions when you want, and fruition bliss which comes after a blip out/cessation . A feeling of having done what I set out to do. But the ride continues...and it ain't all blissful. You start cycling though the nanas/knowledges starting at the 4th up to equanimity of formations, fruition, review then back down to 4th to constantly repeat. The dukkha nanas(also known in some circles as the dark night) are in between all that.They are not very pleasant. But the mind is 1000 times more concentrated to pre-path. Life is one big adventure.
I highly recommend going for it.
Less poetic license please. If you are serious about getting stream entry that is...
If you are taking the piss, good luck to you!
To study of any of the Buddhist teachings and put forth effort to understanding, in whatsoever situation you find yourself in, is the driving force. Effort begets insight begets renewed effort and progress.
Be serious in the effort to turn the words into your own direct experience, because the words can only guide....they are not the Dharma itself, but a representation and a way of guidance for us to see the true Dharma.
Diligence. Strive on diligently, as the Buddha admonished his monks. That is the best advice that this particular transient phenomena can advise. Take it or leave it, but at least think about it.
Namaste
One need not be a monastic for either Buddhahood or Nirvana.
Both are attainable in this lifetime through various methods.
In the Theravada, there is only one Buddha at a time. Memory of this individual and their teachings is what consists of their era. When memory fails, and the teachings expounding ways to liberation are lost, there is darkness. A further Buddha may arise, of conditions, in the future and will at that time be the only Buddha that is known.
We often work at cross-purposes without even knowing it, simply because we do not wish to encumber our minds with contemplating upon things we've already decided are not worthwhile endeavors. An easy example is the man who does not feel it worthwhile to study any other religion but that which he is taught as a child, for the mind is ever selfish and takes this as it's own truth, not to be defied.
Namaste
When speaking of enlightenment, nirvana, and buddhahood we should keep in mind that they are vastly different things with vastly different interpretations.
In all instances we're speaking from our own experience and so the best thing to get across to others would be that they must do their own research and come to their own conclusions. More often I think such sayings that are attributed to the Buddha that mean the same must surely have at some point been uttered by him.
Namaste
If they were similar the bodhisattva vow would be frivolous nonsense (my Simon Cowell impersonation) .
Namaste
Stop wasting time on discussion forums
P
The best thing to do is to remain mindful of the reasons you are here, each time you are here. This is a tool more than anything else, and thoughts of 'belonging' to the forum should be guarded against.
Namaste
You're quite right, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment. Though I do sometimes waste time on discussion forums...:o
P
I think that's it. I just wish I could do it.:o
P
What a good question! One that Thomas Merton posed too.
The hard truth is that the example of those of whom we know who appear to have done so have devoted the greater part of their life to practice, which is what makes it so hard (and even, I very much fear, almost impossible) for those of us who live ordinary lives of quiet desperation. Even the Buddha gave up everything and we, in our clinging to relationships and possessions, jobs and families, try to persuade ourselves that the odd hour out of our busy days is enough.
Precisely the same problem exists for Christians, carefully ignoring the instruction to "sell all you have and follow".
Could you say a bit about what you're letting go of, and how you go about it?
P