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Is Buddhism really only about the elimination of suffering?
Is this the aim of Buddhism? Is there any other goals or purpose?
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isn't that enough?
'I come to teach the origin of suffering and the cessation of suffering.'
If the Buddha summed it up thus, who are we to argue?
Perhaps in that discourse, he came to teach the end of suffering, but in another discourse, he may have come to teach something else. Isn't it said that the Abhidhama is the pinnacle of his works? I am personally intrigued by the Abhidhama (you can tell by looking at my name, :P).
All other lessons come back to this source.
What else is there you need to know but this?
Sure, he elaborated and diversified, but ultimately it's all comes back to Deer Park.
Is this stated in the Suttas, by the Buddha himself?
To me, the Abhidhamma seems unnecessarily complicated, maybe other people benefit from it. The Suttas seem pithy enough for me, if you read a lot of them you can get a pretty good idea of what the Buddha (most likely) taught. All of the Suttas fit within the context of the Four Noble Truths.
Hi BuddhaOdin,
Re OP: So, IMO, yes, the Buddha really is "only about the elimination of suffering".
With Metta,
Guy
In addition to the end of duhkha, the Buddha also explained how to get a better rebirth. This is a lesser goal than the end of duhkha, but it is an additional goal.
Buddhism is a religion, and is used for the purposes any religion is used for.
So yes, Buddhism has other aims. But if we are to believe teachers and basic texts, Buddhism was created and originally taught as a path to the end of duhkha.
I've noticed throughout your responses it seems like the only thing worthy of discussion is the Four Noble Truths. But why is there even a discussion forum if all there is is the Four Noble Truths? Why are there 45 books of the Tipitaka?
I was gonna say...
"All I want you to do today is invent cold fusion, solve the world's energy problems, and clean up the environment to finish things up in the afternoon."
Maybe because some people (myself included) feel they need to ask lots and lots of questions until they "get it". Many of the Suttas contain a lot of repetition which I suspect is to really drive the important points (according to those who compiled the Suttas) home. What are these important points? Four Noble Truths, Four Noble Truths and the Four Noble Truths.
With Metta,
Guy
And this I agree. But it seems like when I want to discuss other aspects of Buddhism, federica seems to discourage discussion and says only the Four Noble Truths matter. I feel that there is so much more to Buddhism than that, and are worthy of discussion. Buddha himself encouraged discourse and debate (which I'm sure is the purpose of these forums
Haha, well then. I don't deny their importance.
What else do you seek from Buddhism by the way? Other than the cessation of suffering.
Like what?
Where? Reference please?
All teachings aim to reduce suffering.
Some can partially reduce suffering and other can fully.
But all have the same goal, dependent on the practitioner.
This includes rebirth teachings. Their aim is to reduce suffering.
Enlightenment and Nirvana (I know that Nirvana is partly, cessation of suffering, but it's more than just that as well. i.e. loss of the ego self, etc.).
Abhidhamma, Buddhist philosophy.
Isn't ignorance one of the 3 poisons? Certainly the teachings of Buddhism that don't deal with suffering are to aide against ignorance and towards Enlightenment.
Edit: Here's an excerpt from the Buddhanet Study Guide.
"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Abhidhamma is like a powerful magnifying-glass, but the understanding gained from the Suttas is the eye itself, which performs the act of seeing. Again, the Abhidhamma is like a medicine container with a label giving an exact analysis of the medicine; but the knowledge gained from the Suttas is the medicine itself which alone is able to cure the illness and its symptoms, namely craving rooted in ignorance, and the suffering caused by it."
[/FONT]
In the PBS Buddha documentary. Either Dalai Lama or another guest said it.
Ignorance is not realizing not-self, impermanence and suffering of all phenomena. Not realizing it leads to the self identification and attachments which cause suffering. Does Abhidhamma talk about something more than this?
Nontheless I know folks who create more suffering for themselves due to the rebirth belief.
Gotcha... quite....
Look, I'll do you a deal:
When you have studied the Four Noble Truths, understood every nuance and realised their Noble Nature, and have the Eightfold Path under your belt, and understood and realised every nuance of those - then we can move on to other stuff.
I'm open to that, sure.
But let's get the vitally important stuff out of the way first: let's tidy your room, put all the books back on the shelves, feed the monkey and then we can go to the park and play ball....
Fair enough. I am still new to Buddhism and have lots to learn.
Ok. You have a jug of water, and a glass in front of you.
Yet you're trying to reach the top shelf, at the back, behind the china vase, for a cup....
Not sure what you mean by that. Are you saying the teachings should be learned in a certain order? If so, the Four Noble Truths were the first thing I learned.
What I'm saying is, slake your thirst on the obvious, before reaching for the more complicated.
You'll actually find that your thirst is so slaked and satisfied, that the complicated either becomes pointless, academic or superfluous....
I feel that since I learned the basic Four Noble Truths, I'm ready to go further.
But Enlightenment is a primary aspect of Buddhism. It's the very meaning of the word "Buddha." I understand that Enlightenment is beyond mere intellectual endeavors, beyond the mind chatter, but certainly it is part of the path to Enlightenment. I just can't imagine ever just simply disregarding Abhidhamma for any reason.
Nevertheless, the Fourth Truth, the Noble Eightfold Path, is not a simple, one line statement. It is a matter for study and understanding. Vast tomes can and have been written on what is actually meant by samma, which is usually translated into English as "Right", as in "Right Speech", etc.
In that study all the other questions arise.
Thus, the Historical Buddha taught the Truths but Buddhism is much more complex, deeper, more open to opinion and the subjects of long debate. To acknowledge the first three Truths is fundamental (but, then, it is in all the religions that I have come across); the Fourth is, by its nature, more problematic and worthy of study.
In the end, however, this passage from an essay by Tenzin Gyatso, which is similar to something he said in a private communication, is more important and, I should add, challenges us to let go of internecine quarrels about 'Vehicles' or our clinging to old hurts which we deem inflicted by other religions:
Learning the theory of the Four Noble Truths is not the same as Opening the Dhamma Eye (i.e. Stream Entry). Scholars may understand very well the theory of Buddhism, but if they never practice the Noble Eightfold Path then that knowledge will be totally useless to them in regards to freeing them from suffering. A person might hear only one discourse, but if they practice properly according to that one discourse, perhaps they will take the path all the way to Arahantship.
Ajahn Brahm uses the simile of the Professor who hears about this great new five star restaurant. The restaurant is so popular that he has to book his table two months in advance. Two months pass, and he goes to the restaurant, he is taken to his table, he sits down at the table and picks up the menu. He proceeds to EAT the menu! He then pays his bill and leaves as hungry as he was when he arrived.
Do you get the point?
With Metta,
Guy
First, however, they must hear the "one discourse" and "practice accordingly". In the Jesus story, Philip asks the basic question: "What do we have to do?" And that means study. The Noble Eightfold Path is not heard once and immediately crawled along! And, as in all learning, there will be new questions which arise, new obstacles and discouragements. Practice will change with growing awareness, even after we have achieved a glimpse, if not the whole view. After all, Siddhartha sat through a process to arrive at his Awakening after years of training even if he had to get off the old paths to walk the new one.
And if your professor had not learned to read or to listen, he would never have heard of the restaurant. And one trusts that his mental condition will be addressed that, presented with a list of food, he eats the list. How many diners in how many restaurants have you seen eating the Bill of Fare rather than ordering the food? A poor analogy, I think.
It is intentionally a ridiculous analogy to highlight the ridiculousness of one who ONLY studies but never practices. It is not meant to be a literal depiction of the behaviour of professors.
With Metta,
Guy
The four noble truth is the only thing there is to it IMO. That is what the core Buddhist teachings are about. There are certain other moral teachings the Buddha has taught depending on his audience but they are just that; moral teachings. They are not directly related to the path of freedom from Dhukka. In fact, the Buddha has advised that certain things are unskillful in finding a solution to the problem at hand like these:
For me, Buddhism does not give answers to the mysteries of the universe or the beginning of the world systems. It only teaches suffering and the cessation of suffering which is verifiable in this lifetime. So focus on that. Once you understand not-self fully, everything else will be irrelevant
the aim is to become free from suffering.
perhaps some teachings aim to reduce the suffering temporarily, but in the long run, the ultimate goal is always to free ourselves from suffering entirely.
Yes, it's said by some that it is. Lots of things are said by lots of people. It's also said by some that it should not be attributed to him at all.
A PBS documentary is not a citation for words you attribute to the Buddha. And "the Dalai Lama or another guest saying it" is far from the Buddha himself saying it.
"All there is"? All teachings of the sutta pitaka fall into the Four Noble Truths. Have you seen the size of that thing?!
What are "the basic Four Noble Truths" incidentally?
Well thats my guess
I think it is valid enough for you to study the Abhidhamma and inquire away. It is not like it is a forbidden text. I don't know if it is the pinnacle of his works. I don't even know if it was the work of the Buddha, but it is interesting enough.
Buddha, the Enlightened One.
Buddhism, the path to Enlightenment.