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is it possible to get to elightenment without meditating?
I am struggling to meditate and when I do, I become bored and see no apparant benefit to it. Do you have to be meditating a long time before benefits become apparant or does meditation not always produce benefits?
I have experienced a few unusual thoughts that I would not have thought about when meditating but not much, and none seemed important, it was sort of like a dream but less fun, less details.
I have experienced a few unusual thoughts that I would not have thought about when meditating but not much, and none seemed important, it was sort of like a dream but less fun, less details.
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Yes, meditation (Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Stillness) is necessary for enlightenment. If is wasn't then the Buddha would not have taught it as part of the Noble Eightfold Path.
If you are bored and see no apparent benefit to meditating, then I might like to suggest that maybe you aren't doing it properly. Could you tell me how you meditate?
With Metta,
Guy
Focus on breath and not engage in thoughts(at least try not to). I actually enjoy meditating more when walking but sometimes do it when I'm in bed or sitting.
Why do you want to get enlightened? What does that mean to you? Thoughts of any kind are not the point.
I am quite familiar with this state, it is a state in which the energy of the mind is lacking. My guess is that you probably are someone who does a lot of thinking. The reason people think so much is because they value their thinking so highly. They think that if they keep thinking then they will get somewhere or gain some understanding.
It may come as a suprise to you, but most of our thinking is a complete and utter waste of time. If you don't believe me, I suggest that you start observing your thoughts. I don't just mean while you are sitting on a meditation cushion, but throughout your day. How many of your thoughts are just thinking about the past? or planning the future?
The thoughts about the past are a total waste of time, the past is dead and gone, let it go! As for the thoughts about the future, have you actually seen how many of these thoughts come to fruition exactly as you thought they would? My guess is that absolutely none of them have delivered the goods they promised. They might have come close sometimes, but thoughts can never fully anticipate the complexity and uncertainty of the future.
As for thoughts about the present, these thoughts are never accurate descriptions of the reality we are experiencing. Ajahn Brahm says that it is like thinking that a menu is the food, and eating the menu. See if you can start eating the food and leave the menu once you understand its limitations.
When you start to see how much of your thinking is a waste of time, you will stop doing it; not through force but quite naturally. Some thinking is useful, but most of it is not. But again, don't believe me, see if it is true in your own experience.
The point is, thinking is a drain on mental energy. Mindfulness can never be strong if we spend all our energy on habitual thinking.
With Metta,
Guy
Some Buddhist said something like Enlightenment can't be put into words because its absolute truth.
Someone also said that Enlightened beings are morally infallible and free from the cycle of rebirth.
Is Enlightment not worth pursuing?
If I reach Enlightment I may meet the Buddha in another realm !
If you understand the teachings well on the conceptual level, meditation upon those teachings and how they relate to your own direct experiences may lead to "realization" (seeing/knowing, as opposed to believing or agreeing with) of those truths. At the very least, meditation may help you deepen your understanding on the conceptual level.
It takes time. You must study/understand the teachings, practice the path, meditate, rinse and repeat. As you develop sila (morality) and through right effort work on abandoning unskillful tendencies and thoughts and replacing them with skillful ones, your mind becomes more receptive, more malleable and able to connect the dots.
The Buddhists I met instructed me to focus on breath and not engage in thoughts. They said if thoughts arise let them pass.
Pretty much.
I have heard that Nibbana can't be put into words because it is the "cessation of perception and feeling"...since there is no perception how can there be a description? Having not reached this state myself, I don't know.
Yes, suffering and rebirth go together. One who is free from suffering is no longer subject to future birth.
I doubt it. As far as I understand the Buddha has "Nibbana'd" (gone out) from Samsara altogether. There is no realm where you can meet the Buddha.
With Metta,
Guy
To be honest I don't think there is anything wrong in thinking about the past or future its just when you repeat them constantly its a problem I think; we need to think to plan; but for me a lot of thoughts are there are not needed. I know they are wasteful, even though I sometimes enjoy them.
I don't know if this is normal or whether its just me but I often think of imaginary situations or imagine myself imaginary situations, but I find these thoughts enjoyable but wasteful. I would rather focus on the facts even if they are less fun to think about.
Have I actually seen how many of my thoughts come to fruition exactly as I thought they would? Thats a difficult question, it depends on what I was thinking about , the more complex the idea the less likely to be accurate with reality, I think. Experience is key I think, the more experience I have with something the easier it is to predict.
I am aware that many of my thoughts are a waste of time , but I often forget this or forget the importance of mindfullness. Maybe the problem is actually enjoy thinking. But I have thought about unpleasent stuff which I don't enjoy thinking about thinking it may help me improve my situation.
You need to give up your preoccupation with thoughts. The problem with past and future thoughts is that they decrease your availability in the moment. For instance, you'll be thinking about your breakfast and not taste lunch, then be thinking about lunch during dinner. The main issue is then meals becomes less nourishing, it is impossible to practice discernment, unable to taste the food, likely to overcook the food etc etc...
The benefits of having a stable and present mind are incredible. If you are properly relating to the present, there is no reason to delve anywhere else.
With warmth,
Matt
:hair::banghead:
It's not like you do good things, receive good kamma and after death you get to meet the God you know. Best to stop listening to other people, read some books of reliable sources and find a teacher if possible. Meditation is not easy at the start. Until a few months of continuous practice you won't necessarily see any significant result.
I think meditation is required to realize the wisdom into anicca, dukkha, anatta. You can get a general idea of it by reading but you need meditation to "experience" the reality of these truth. There is a difference between general understanding and direct insight. Direct insight happens through meditation.
In Buddha Dharma , the enlightened teachers offer various methods to enter , be it the sitting meditation , movement meditation, half sittng half movement meditation, recitation , chanting mantras, visualization , ritual , deep prayer , are all part of the methods
It is also said that people of our age, our mind are quite unsettle - quite sitting meditation may not most suitable to the common folks
Guy speaks from knowledge. Yes, we are all attached to our thoughts, and most of us are also attached to our cleverness. Useless!
As for meditating, our Tibetan-monk teacher tells us it takes a MINIMUM of 6 months to start to develop any mental discipline at all while meditating. And years to become fully skillful and focused enough so that you can move on to "analytical" meditation.
This is how out teacher, a Tibetan and a monk from age 12 in the Dalai Lama's monastery teaches us:
-You are trying to master the first stage of meditation. Your goal is to focus single-mindedly on your breathing. Let all thoughts and physical/outer awareness run off you like water off a shower curtain.
- Visualize breath in-out, feel it in-out, count "1" for the first breath, "2" for the second.
- Whenever ANYTHING else comes into your consciousness, start counting over again from "1". You will be counting "1 ... 1 ... 1 ... for months."
- You will become frustrated and exasperated ... this is EXCELLENT practice for NOT latching onto emotions.
- When, someday, you can count up to "21" with absolutely no loss of total focus (no thoughts coming in, no awareness of the outside world or your own body's distractions) ... then, and only then, are you ready for analytical meditation.
Good luck.
Uh-oh WTF do we do now?! :eek2:
All we need is Tina Turner now. Conveniently, shes a buddhist, too.
I don't believe it... she has altogether too much hair.
Foible, I was under the impression that in meditation, you needed to be fully aware of your surroundings instead of shutting out the world, and also aware of your whole body, WHILE at the same time, focusing on the breath. Maybe that's just the kind of meditation I learned (Zen sitting meditation or zazen. Very simple and calls for awareness of mind, body and breath) and the one you are mentioning is a different kind. I've only just began doing it, and I agree that I am VERY not ready for analytical meditation as you call it.
Are there some types of meditation where you have to shut out the outside world and become sort of "entranced" and get into your own inner "cocoon"? Just curious.
Any clarification you can give me on this is much appreciated.
But yeah, just so I don't hijack the thread completely, I'd say to the OP, give it time. Enlightenment and mindfulness won't happen overnight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPPYGtjlICY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WejJZrP9VmU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqmkITv0NhY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOj3uYVi-G8&feature=related
I can't see how that article is any different than the above. It says:
How is that any different than focusing your attention on the breath and when thought take your attention away from the breath, to refocus on the breath? Which is the same as saying Focus on breath and when thoughts come, allow them to pass? What is the subtle difference?
if your attention goes to the thought, and then refocus when you catch yourself, it is good.
But to allow the thoughts to pass mean that you can keep your attention on the breath, even when thoughts pops up in your mind.
Like driving in your car.
a - refocus
b - let it pass
Your attention is on the road and a leaf fly and land in your windshield.
a- your attention goes to the leaf for a second, your eyes shift and you look at it, then your attention goes back to the road.
b- your attention stay on the road even when the leaf lands. You just kind of see it with your peripheral vision.
hope this help
To cultivate attention is like building up muscle.
pointless.
But if you build muscle in order to be able to lift something then it is useful.
LoL, that's great, cuz then I'm certainly on the right track. Haha, not so much with the boredom, but with the HOT part. My room is an oven and I sweat my butt off when I meditate on warm nights. Not nice. Can't wait for "cool boredom" to set in. (Or is that "cool" in the sense that Miles Davis was the king of cool? hahaha. Maybe I've got this all wrong).
Eventually you die of boredom and then there is "seeing but no seer therein". That boredom is "me" squeezed into a corner, every impulse will resist it. You need to be disciplined, sit with a group of disciplined people, but stay with it. You can't skip boredom, that will only protect "me". If you never get bored, if you are always fascinated or entertained or satisfied with meditation then you are just feeding "Me", just making "me" spiritual. Boredom is essential.
If you believe the Buddha was born an unenlightened human and died an enlightened human, then you would probably need to believe that enlightenment is a change in a human being. I would imagine there are many ways for human beings to reach this change of state that we imagine as the Buddha's enlightenment (why would there not be?). In which case, I assume, mediation cannot be the only way to reach enlightenment.
There may be cases in the Buddhist literature where people were said to be enlightened without meditation. It has never struck me as a prime request of reaching enlightenment in the stories of the Pali Cannon.
namaste
unfortunately, I'm not aware of any other methods.
in general,
If you resent meditation, it is because you are conditioned to do so.
Your ego is throwing a tantrum, finding excuse, clinging to it's security blankets...
Just see it for what it is, and ignore the monkey.
Why would say any of that?
I gave my attempt to answer somones question about something I have thought lpots on.
I think the monkey is making you jump at anyone's answer you don't agree with. Think before you attack next time:)
namaste
I edit the original post to reflect that.
Sorry for writing poorly and in a way that could easily lead to confusion.
I never "attack" anyone or anybody, never lose my temper or get upset in any meaningful way.
If i give the impression of the contrary, once again, i apologize sincerely.
Why imagine? Practice. Do it. The various practice traditions have been evolving for centuries and they work. If you practice in a Sangha with a teacher you will see that Buddha, Buddhism, "Enlightenment" and freedom are not something people dream about, it is something people do, not superhumans but ordinary people with discipline and committment. Thinking about it is OK to a point but if practice doesnt take over then you are just dawdling. Dreaming.
No offence, this isnt about you, it is just the idea of thinking about Buddhahood and speculating.
I agree. You know, it isn't a competition. Someone asked a question, some have tried answering it as best we can.