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Define 'suffering,' 'attachment,' & 'enlightenment'
I feel like many terms used in Buddhism are very abstract, and I would like to hear different peoples' interpretations of these concepts.
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Comments
but here
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/index.html
For me, attachment is the mind fixated or obsessed upon something under the power of craving.
For me, enlightenment is penetrative insight that understands the true nature of things.
OK.
Best to give one's opinion as the questioner asked.
I really like your hinting here at keeping a subjective bead on what is around us. I think that somehow gets lost here, confusing many.
For me, suffering is a a mixture of pain and confusion. Such as experiencing anger and thinking it is coming from outside myself.
Attachment is when I am holding a solid or fixed mental projection. Like insisting the sky is blue, or that life is good, or I am Matt.
Enlightenment for me is a simple relating to the world in a way without those other two, where the correctness and truth of nature is obvious and present.
With warmth,
Matt
Hhmmm...Can you expand on this Matt? I am curious, these all seem like good things, why would you not want to hold a solid view of these things the way you describe them(what is wrong with the blueness, or the mattness, or the goodness?)?
Lol, well nothing is wrong with that. But what happens when I encounter someone that says the world is bad? Or the sky is green?
If the view I have is solid, I will experience dissonance with this person that is unnecessary and untrue. Maybe argue over the color (or god forbid you say something that isn't word for word in a sutta.) The sky is neither blue nor green from its own side... those are just labels we assign to it. The 'enlightened truth' is that the person and I are relating to it differently, labeling it differently. The less solid I hold my view of object space or mind space, the more able I am to see into the world around me without becoming confused when others happen by speaking a different language, or calling things differently and so on.
I will still say the sky is blue, and that I am Matt, or the world is good... but none of those things are actually real from their own side... but I do it so that I can communicate with others. Non-concepts don't make for good message-boarding
So many arguments arise from people defending their subjective reality as though it is objective, or existent from its own side, making us terribly unskillful in relating to people who look at things differently.
Some more than others
With warmth,
Matt
I am not trying to be a mere contrarian, nor am I trying to provoke people, but vague definitions become less and less through testing and questioning.
Still, it would be important to hold those more loosley. For instance, how about a 5 by 5 grid? That might also be expressed "5x5", and if I insist that you mean 25, we will not see eye to eye if you are talking about a grid. How about a 4x4? Do you think that a garden of 25 flowers ascribes a number to itself? How about a mathematician seeing that garden? How about a poet?
The point isn't to become passive... where nothing has any meaning... rather accept that nothing has a solid meaning. We all have preferences and concepts we agree on (your example of math is great, one of the more universal languages) but the more we insist on what we know is right, the less available we are to see the truth... should the truth be contrary to our expectations.
Attachment... really doesn't need further explanation from me.
Enlightenment AKA Awakening AKA Nirvana/Nibbana = the false "self" has been seen, its supports/attachments struck down, and with proper understanding of how all states of dukkha come to be, unskillful thoughts can no longer arise. The mind is absolutely tranquil. This is the greatest peace we can find.
Of note however, the Mahayan tradition implies that the Arahant does still suffer from a form of dukkha that is only alleviated by committing to the liberation of all sentient beings. That's their opinion, of course, but it may be true.
That reminded me a lot of a story that I read somewhere about 3 people going into a forest together. They had 3 totally different views and backgrounds (one was a lumberjack, one was an environmentalist, and one was a real estate guy or something, for example), and all had different opinions on how the forest should be used. I tried to find the story with no luck
Suffering for me is not having what I desire at the present moment. I may forget about what I desire for little bit, but I'm really still suffering by being on this earth and being alive. I'm not trying to sound pessimistic, there's AMAZING points in life, but we're mostly all just trying to find something to satisfy us for the time being. When we don't get that (which is most of the time....and even if we do get it, nothing is permanent. It will go away, and the cycle will start over again), we suffer.
Attachment is holding onto an idea or a desire because you believe it will stop your suffering. This is a little harder to define for me, so my definition probably won't be as good as anyone else's.
Enlightenment is the opposite of suffering and attachment. I would imagine being enlightened is understanding the two. If you are enlightened, you do not have any attachments, so you do not suffer.
I tried my best
I think I remember hearing that the word means something like "Bad Wheel", so make of that what you will.
I am reminded of a section of David Eagleman's book "Sum: 40 Tales of The Afterlife", where a version of the afterlife has people reliving every activity of their lives straight through, so you brush your teeth for 3 months straight, then you spend two weeks yawning, then 8 days falling, 2 weeks drying off after a shower, and so forth. This is life. In this world we get to do all of these things one at a time and space them out and appreciate and enjoy them, to be mindful of them as they happen, and to move on excitedly from one activity to another. Wouldn't seeing and appreciating the beauty in smoothing out the coffee inside the filter or drying off after a shower be closer to enlightenment than viewing it as suffering?
A Tibetan definition says there are three types of sufferings all beings must experience.
1 - the suffering of suffering
the immediate physical pain and affliction we all have.
2 - the suffering of change
although conditions are good they don't last because the nature of reality is impermanent - all things change so that causes us suffering.
3 - all-pervasive suffering
all moments bring the chance for suffering because we have not cut out the root of the cause of our suffering ( we aren't enlightened like the buddha so we still suffer)
I didn't really do the third type of suffering justice in my explanation though.
you can read more here.
http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2006/05/three-types-of-suffering.html
or
http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/4_noble_truths.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2UoTFF3uJU
1. A state of mind that is unfavorable/ unskillfull.
The Suffering:
1. A decent Game for xbox.
Attachment:
1. Things that i unnessicarily rely upon.
2. A file that is sent through email.
I really dont concern with enlightment too much, but i will attempt a definition.
Elightenment
1. A constant state of mind where suffering is severely reduced, and we see things as they truly are.
breaking through the mindjail of becoming attached to perception. our perceptions are an inaccurate phenomenon of the mind, and they cause problems.
Attachment is the unwillingness to let go of desires, views and opinions.
Enlightenment is the state of contentment and freedom from wants.
For me, everything is in a constant state of change, changing all the time. Nothing is inherently suffering, its all just changing. But suffering arises when we attach. When we long for a certain circumstance, cling to a certain circumstance, or try to push away a certain circumstance, suffering arises.
Look at every nanosecond like a snapshot of what "is." Sometimes, in life, the snapshot might be of you being stung by a bee, or losing your job, or a loved one dying, sometimes it might be getting a new guitar, or meeting a girl, or taking a vacation, but none of those things are a "sure thing" they don't last. When you want your "snapshot" to be something different than what it is (when you think about getting something, becoming something, or trying to push something away, etc.) then you are clinging, or attaching, you are discontent. It would be like a person sitting on a beach, in the waves, and each wave represents a different "snapshot" of what is, different experiences. Some of them we judge as good, and some of them we judge as bad. A person who clings to their "favored snapshots" is like a person sitting in those waves who tries to push certain waves away, or hold on to the others for longer, and really there is no control over it. Suffering arises when the person doesn't get what they want, when they cannot get the certain "wave" or cannot push another "wave" away.
Being on the Path to enlightenment means seeing things as such, impermanent and not self, and recognizing that suffering arises when you attach to things that are "not sure things." You will be sitting in the waves, but you will try to not grab onto certain ones, or push others away, you will just let go and let what is be what it is. When we do this, dispassion slowly arises. This means you will not be extremely passionate about certain things, you won't really put a great emphasis on your likes and dislikes anymore (in fact, the concept of likes and dislikes will slowly fade away.) To know what this feels like, look in yourself to find what you are already dispassionate about. If you look outside, and see two trees, one may be bent over and crooked and another may be tall, one may have three big branches coming out near the top. You don't really care how many branches are coming out, where they are placed at, which one is crooked, ect. You just appreciate it for what it is. You will gradually become this way about a great many things, things which you used to cling to, and it brings a sort of freedom.
I am not fully enlightened by a long shot, but I imagine, going back to the beach metaphor, it would be like someone who has walked up on the beach and sat down. They still see all of the waves coming and going, but they don't reach them. They are detached. They just look and watch, appreciate things for what they are, and smile at the waves as they come and go, they don't see the waves as good or bad, they don't judge any wave or experience like they used to, they accept all waves as equal, all snapshots as part of life, and when one wave comes and the other goes, when a new snapshot is taken and another goes, they appreciate what "is" and don't cling to what "was" or what "will become."
It seems, to me at least, it is just a path to acceptance. But that is just my current understanding of things, and I suppose that is subject to change with time :P who knows. Did any of that make sense to anyone?
Sure! I feel your metaphor expresses your view beautifully.
With warmth,
Matt
attachement: A preference based on the above described misunderstanding.
enlightenment: the ability to stay aware of and appreciate impermenance and egolessness.
Thanks for the thread, I enjoyed everyones posts:cool: