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Joy
I'd really like to have a discussion about joy and people's experience of it and how their Buddhist practice has altered their experience of joy.
A few starters:
1) By joy I mean a sense of deep abiding "rightness" and happiness. Really it is beyond happiness and is sustained where happiness tends to be fleeting. It is not a "hit" of good feeling but something deeper and lasting.
2) It seems to me that this is what people are really seeking, and I'm no different. If you aren't seeking this then what are you seeking? The Truth, perhaps? But there seems to be an implicit link between deep joy and the truth, such that one is not achievable without the other. "The truth will set you free" is a good example. The Dalai Lama says often that we all just want to be happy.
3) So... I have noticed that I experience a quiet kind of peace and connectedness through my (admittedly beginning) practice and meditation but I would not say that I have experienced joy per se. Nor do I really sense that I'm likely to experience "overwhelming joy" any time soon. Maybe I just need more time on the cushion.
3) Do you/ have you experienced deep, lasting joy and do you actively do things to enhance/cultivate it in your practice?
4) Joy could be seen as just another attachment, but it seems to me it is much deeper than that and that it is of fundamental importance. One could say that the end of suffering is the beginning of joy and thus at heart, Buddha was seeking joy. I have a real sense that unless we are feeling progressively more joyful then what are we really doing?
Appreciate all thoughts
Bagg
A few starters:
1) By joy I mean a sense of deep abiding "rightness" and happiness. Really it is beyond happiness and is sustained where happiness tends to be fleeting. It is not a "hit" of good feeling but something deeper and lasting.
2) It seems to me that this is what people are really seeking, and I'm no different. If you aren't seeking this then what are you seeking? The Truth, perhaps? But there seems to be an implicit link between deep joy and the truth, such that one is not achievable without the other. "The truth will set you free" is a good example. The Dalai Lama says often that we all just want to be happy.
3) So... I have noticed that I experience a quiet kind of peace and connectedness through my (admittedly beginning) practice and meditation but I would not say that I have experienced joy per se. Nor do I really sense that I'm likely to experience "overwhelming joy" any time soon. Maybe I just need more time on the cushion.
3) Do you/ have you experienced deep, lasting joy and do you actively do things to enhance/cultivate it in your practice?
4) Joy could be seen as just another attachment, but it seems to me it is much deeper than that and that it is of fundamental importance. One could say that the end of suffering is the beginning of joy and thus at heart, Buddha was seeking joy. I have a real sense that unless we are feeling progressively more joyful then what are we really doing?
Appreciate all thoughts
Bagg
0
Comments
When anyone, human or not, perceives that they are getting closer to something accepted as a "good thing", a goal of any sort, they consciously sense joy/happiness.
Though it is true that many people have declared a great variety of things as "good" despite the actual benefits from them, there are fundamental needs that instigated all of those urges and declarations of good. The point to having wisdom is to let you know when certain things (not all) are too socially or personally dangerous to accept as good regardless of why you thought or felt they would be.
The ultimate joy is felt when all of the urges report that positive progress is being made. Assuming such a state wasn't artificially created (drugs), it comes about when the disharmonious urges are eliminated. Suffering is no more than a desire being thwarted. When all of your urges are in harmony, you can feel no disappointment, sadness, or misery of any kind. Such a state is innately healthy because most of the fundamental urges had to do with health in the first place.
All of the instinctive urges are aimed at producing a surrounding of the harmony of your life through very strategic and often misunderstood means. All sexual activity and concerns derive from that most fundamental need to maintain, through the expansion of more of itself, the harmonic motion that a life is. All social issues, racism, religion, governance, entertainment, and even war all derive from so many lives in their blindness attempting to maintain the harmonic motion that defines what they are, their "soul". The mind/heart just gets confused (due often to those same unwise acts).
Returning to the thought of what began all of the effort and consequential confusion is essential to accomplishing the actual goal. Most people have no idea as to why they desire anything and if asked, they must try to come up with a reason.
Joy is the perception of progress from within.
Align your deeds with your needs and your desires will adjust to meet your true future. Progress will be perceived. You will know eternal joy.
I have "been there and done that, got the T-shirt", except for one critical error. I was unaware that I had a very experienced and insidious adversary. Thus, "Know thy adversary and know thy self" as you seek to form the harmony of your deeds with the reality of your needs.
Do it very carefully and accurately and you can nether perish nor know a single moment of unhappiness; "suffering"; "un-joy".
But do not expect others to know very much of how to help you. Most today believe such a state to be not only impossible, but to be avoided as evil. The insanity of Man is endlessly persistent.
... en-joy
{{beatcha, Matt
I think what you're describing is a harmony one feels as they begin to give up false notions. I agree with the Dali Lama that all people want to be happy. As they move toward what makes them happy (pleasure), they encounter a rising and falling of their happiness, depending on the external stimuli (painful stimulation removing, pleasurable stimulation adding).
This leads to the next looking for happiness which is the cessation of that which removes happiness. When we begin to see that our craving is creating some manic moments of happiness then depressed moments of dissatisfaction, we look at the craving and decimate it, so we may get beyond the cycle (pleasure/pain duality).
Then, with the silence of the cycles, we experience a resonant harmony as we go through the cycles... which is how I see joy. For instance, I am joyous. When I step on a nail, I am in pain and the I is unhappy because it is in pain... my body is pissed. However, I am still joyful as I remain mindful of the experience that is passing. I know the pain is momentary, my body will settle, and what will be left is the silent, persistent resonance.
Other people use the word to point toward other concepts, but for me, this is the fundamental expression of joy. When you have strong mindfulness and a well rooted understanding of the transience of the pleasure/pain phenomena, then it is a natural state.
With warmth,
Matt
there is sensual joy, like eating ice-cream or chocolate or watching a beautiful sunset
there is material joy, such as if one is financially unburdened & at ease
there is immaterial joy, such as if we receive a compliment or solve a Rubik's Cube or crossword puzzle
so joy can arise in many ways
via pleasure, via contentment, via knowledge, etc
What utter nonsense! What does progress have to do with joy, which is the end in itself.
Joy simply cannot be explained by any other yardstick. Full Stop.
It is what gives meaning to life. Without hope of pursuing joy, a life can have no vital reason to continue.
For me Joy is much fuller than what Happy usually means.
Being such a newcomer to Buddhism, I can imagine this defination will grow and deepen as I learn and study.
Thank all of you for being here.
So what then, you think that joy has no cause? It just randomly falls from the sky and if you happen to be standing in the right spot, you get to feel a little?
Joy is a sensation. Sensations are caused. Seeing the cause and effect of sensations, feelings, the El, is what allows citta to calm vedana and release undesirable sensations that arise such as anger, depression, irritation, and even that urge to be rude and combative.
But I suspect you in particular might need to read and reference the very many writings concerning Buddhism to know that.
States are generated.
There doesn't have to be a cause.
you can still feel these emotions superficially, but enjoy an inner foundation of unshakeable Joy.
Well, we could all learn many things, from many sources. But all the knowledge in the world will not Generate Joy. We must do that for ourselves.
Sometimes, knowing too much, can get in the way. Simplifying can be better.
It seems presumptions follow you around.
With warmth,
Matt
Which is very temporary and will surely be followed very soon by the next craving, and the next...
You are basically promoting the modern way of life.
Many people come to Buddhism to become liberated from that very circle of suffering that you are explaining.
Although joy is ineffable, if I were to attempt to describe it I'd start by saying: Joy is a realization of the state of Union or Communion with something that more or less sums up our very being. You also put it well, bagg: a state of
I've thought a lot about how best to answer this, bagg, and the thought that keeps coming to my mind is from the movie, Ghost, with Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. In the closing lines, Swayze's character says you take it [love] with you up to heaven. Well, spiritual groundedness and the joy found therein is something you can carry with you wherever you go if you continue to work at it and not give up. It's sweet and good.
I think you stated that beautifully here and I agree. Of course Buddha was seeking joy. Any Buddhist seeking misery is misinterpreting what Buddha taught.
I guess one could be distracted overmuch by seeking thrills, but that is not the same thing as seeking joys that do not perish. Therefore I'd say that seeking cerebral joy could not really be a bad attachment.
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People use the words Joy and Happiness in varied ways with minor distinctions; We can go into another quibble over the “true meaning” of a word, but I thought it would be more interesting to discuss the actual cause of joy and exactly why meditation and various outlooks on life bring the joy about as well as why the Buddha said what he said concerning it. But since this seems to be an ego-defense anti-Buddhist forum rather than a mature discussion forum, I think I will leave the understanding issues for more experienced people.
I would value your further thoughts.
Can the spiritual life be summarised as:
Set Compass for Joy?
It depends on how you define joy. If you follow Drop's dictionary definition, then you could very well be following sensual pleasures, which is a feeble path.
If you dig into some of the other responses, you may find that what is being offered is that the offloading of craving (for happiness or food or sex or anything) opens your mind to experience a peaceful kind of joy that isn't dependent on an external feeding.
Hi bagg,
You might like to look at joy in connection with the Four Sublime States (Brahma Viharas) which are - Love, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity :
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel006.html
Kind regards,
Dazzle
.
btw the momentum theory that you are referring to is simply a method to train your ego to do what you want it to do.
Just like gaining momentum when changing your diet, exercising,whatever, the momemtum theory is that you get pleasure at accomplishing small goals on your journey toward a bigger goal... the wheel spin faster and faster until it is unstoppable. Soon you will have made a life style change.
It is simply a method to condition your ego.
The "joy" you get from acheiving these milestones come from satisfying craving, but cravings that you conditionned yourself into your ego.
All of this conditionnings and craving and momentum stuff are all part of the ego, you.
Joy arise when you get "you" out of the way, and you can truly enjoy the blissfull moment..
effect: nothing left to bother your peace/joy/happiness/stillness.
Simple isn't it?
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Piti is translated into English in a variety of ways that sum up to basically meaning the point of victory or accomplishment, of satisfaction, rapture, orgasm, catharsis, or gestalt of joy. Piti is always the result of a lusting rather than a mere pursuit. A lusting is when a desire overrides the balance of thought and effort such as to blind the mind and make the effort clumsy. If the goal of the lust is accomplished, a rush of joyous satisfaction floods vedana (heart/emotions) and utterly overwhelms the citta (mind/reason).
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Piti is a problem for calmness because it produces excitation and also addiction. The addiction effect is what keeps the larger portion of society in turmoil and endless futile pursuit. Meditation practices are designed primarily to resolve this addictive cycle of craving the rapture of joy brought on by the common teasing of delightful experiences. Many philosophies and religious morals are designed specifically to manage the addictive effect of piti.
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Sukha refers to the more balanced sense of joy that has not come from any particular accomplishment but rather from a sense of continuous accomplishment of merely living. It can be translated as “a sense of well being”, “happy with the world”, “satisfied with daily life”, “enamored with merely living”.
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The objective of Buddhism is to accomplish and maintain sukha by being very mindful of the blinding and entrapping effect of piti.
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Managing Joy
Joy can be thought of much like money and a bank account. To manage money well requires that the income be properly balanced with the usage or out-go. Typically a person expires his income of joy immediately after his paycheck and is bankrupt of joy until he gets another “fix”. Such a person swings between joy and misery, laughter and boredom, love and hatred and leads the typical life of struggle that lacks balance and mindfulness.
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The more mindful person still seeks the income of joy, but does it in a much more intelligent fashion as one who is above the show watching out for the overall big picture, a manager of the heart/vedana.
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There is a common dynamic that takes place causing the confusion of the heart and the populous as a whole. This dynamic involves the focus of the mind and value assignment by the heart.
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If one focuses on the problems of tomorrow, he unintentionally overshadows the potential joy of today. If he gets accustom to the rush of delight from specific events, he loses interest in common events and creates a burdensome existence between short moments of delight and generally sees life as a struggle being oppressed by outsiders. Although he might indeed be oppressed, the more relevant issue is his economy of joy.
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When the mind focuses on today’s much smaller tasks such as cleaning a floor, it yields the opportunity for the constant joy of minor accomplishments, but such does not come immediately. This is where the confusion is most significant. Due to the person perceiving high value in short bursts of delight, they become “spoiled” to seeing value ONLY in those moments. This is the overshadowing of life by lust. When this occurs, no value is seen in the common day to day tasks, but instead they are seen as a burden to suffer through that is keeping them from dreaming of and pursuing the perceived “real joy”.
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This effect can be commonly seen as the effect of a man who gets too carried away with the prospects of beautiful women he sees walking about and loses all interest in his wife. But what most people do not realize is that he doesn’t merely lose interest, he invites a feeling within him of misery being caused by the wife. The wife, sensing such a state, begins to actually aggravate it and becomes the image that the man tricked himself into seeing and feeling. At that point, the perceived reality has painted over the actual reality and formed an addiction. In an addiction, any distraction from the dream is frustrating and is eventually hated.
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In order to enjoy the efforts of today, one must reduce the concern about the problems of tomorrow. When the focus is placed on tomorrow’s problem, the smaller goals of today, are painted by the mind as being unimportant and mundane. Thus no progress can be felt by doing today’s tasks. Since no progress is felt by doing the tasks, no sense of accomplishment or joy is felt and the tasks become more burdensome. Once it is felt that the task are burdensome, they present even less opportunity to sense joy in doing them.
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The mind, by insisting on being too concerned with tomorrow, paints each day as a dark and dreary task while hoping that once tomorrow’s problem has been solved there will be enough joy to allow thought of and appreciation for the tasks of today.
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Thus by not managing joy properly, the income of each day is not merely lost but becomes an expense that takes even more joy away. It is like a store manager who gets angry with the clerk for wasting time counting the exact change from each exchange, "Don't bother me with the details, I am concerned with the big bucks." Breaking this very common effect is breaking an addiction that has cast misery into the moments of ones life that could be joyous. It is an addiction that almost everyone falls into without realizing it.
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Thus managing joy is an issue of focus of the mind and careful balance of assessing value. The mind/heart instinctively, by design, assesses joy by virtue of perceived progress toward something “important” or desired. The instincts identify beauty and “good” by perceiving items as closer to or leading to an instinctive aim, the fundamental goal of ones life. ALL joy is derived from such assignments even when in error.
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Thus it becomes important to be mindful of what actually is important versus what merely seems important. The natural instinctive heart can be easily confused into assigning value to what the mind knows is not important at all and perhaps even dangerous. But the mind must also learn and thus is not always right. This adds even more to the already terribly confused and extremely common problem for every person.
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To get the situation straightened out and restored to sanity, two priorities must be addressed before all else;
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<!--[if !supportLists]-->1)Discover what actually SHOULD be joyous and not (as much as possible of course)
2)Get a hold of the situation such that values can be restored to sanity.<!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->
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Buddhism addresses the second of these highest concerns pertaining to sukha, eternal joy. The first, as far as I know, has never been properly addressed by any religion or philosophy of Man. Mankind has always been persisting in his insanity.
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look at how long and complex you made it in your post.
You will need an accounting degree to achieve this.
It's really not that complicated.
all suffering come from the "self".
get "you" (self) out of the way and nothing is left to bother your peace, happiness, and infinite moments of joy.
WOW! That's gotta be it. Exactly!
You said that what you really want to hear about is people's PRACTICE regarding Joy. You want to hear whether it's a major focus and how one should conduct oneself regarding joy.
I believe that one is pulled towards joy much like iron filings towards a magnet and that one carries it with him much like that magnetic stickiness acrues to iron filings when near the magnetic source.
In meditation one lets go of things and radiates towards joy. Of course joy is the major focus.
Bliss Management
I look forward to it!
A very thoughtful treaty, and well argued. It is a different take on things for me and I'll take some time to reflect on it and get back to you. Thank you for taking such effort with your explanation.
Thank you Patbb. This is the argument that I am used to and I guess it is a very succinct summary of the Mahayana and Theravadin positions. The focus is on wiping away cravings and defilements to reach the Buddhahood beneath. I think I am asking if one can place more emphasis on "just relaxing into our natural joyous nature" but not so far as in the rather gratuitous way of tantra.
Ego, religion, pride, blame-shifting, politics, and so on are all different versions of the same thing, Azazel. I cannot imagine the case where saying "get your ego out of the way" would actually cause it to take place. Beating it with a stick certainly doesn't kill it, rather inspires it to become even stronger.
Wouldn't it be even easier to just "BE HAPPY!!"
A great deal of Buddhism is about understanding the situation, the suttas.
The "Compass of Joy" like a physical compass, has a Magnetic North, most tempting to follow and a True North, not so easily discerned. True North pursuit requires a little more intellect, maturity, and understanding to acquire.
only thing you must understand is that your ego is basically a bunch of conditionned behaviors/reactions, giving the impression of being you. The only difficult part is to break this illusion. See that, observe what is happening inside, how you react to things, events, memories, that is what you should focus on doing.
Than you understand how the ego function, that you don't have to react to anything, that you don't have to be a slave of your conditionnings, than it will be easy to let go of it.
than just be.
See.. you are explaining, not merely saying "get the ego out". We explain because merely commanding an ego doesn't work.
Egos are dissolved through understanding and compassion. They are never commanded to go away.