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The 2 Shortcomings of Buddhism

edited May 2010 in Philosophy
<o></o> Have you ever wondered why everyone didn’t become Buddhist centuries ago?
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I did not pursue Buddhism long ago when I first discovered it because after a short study, I could see at the top of its great mountain of wisdom, 2 shortcomings, 2 concerns left out of the picture and thus left out of the balance of need and effort.
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The 2 concerns that seem to never really be addressed to a much needed level are;
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<!--[if !supportLists]-->A)<!--[endif]-->Physiological/Medical discomfort, dis-ease such as to prevent meditation or calm kaya/vedana in the student.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->B)<!--[endif]-->Momentous Harmony of Life required to defend the peace within.
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Both of these issues prevent the wisdoms of Buddhism from propelling a student into the nirvana he seeks. I can easily imagine that in Gautama’s time and situation, these were not as serious of an issue as they are today.
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Buddhism seems to be taught in such a way as to imply that by mere thought, the discomforts from ailments such as arthritis, meningitis, or any of more than a thousand other variety of common subtle dis-eases that cause un-ending disturbance will all become irrelevant. Yet every discomfort, as taught in the Anapanasati, detracts from the ability to progress.
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In addition, even if the discomforts were ignored, the mental faculties consumed by the effort to ignore such subtle torments leaves insufficient mental resources to achieve enlightenment even if a nirvanic state is felt.
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But then even if all dis-ease concerns were resolved, perhaps by escape and isolation, there is a serious issue, especially today, of how to defend the peace of mind. For how long will the person be left alone?
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Peace is a state, like a still pool of water, that must be defended from disturbance. Peace itself is without energy or passion and thus cannot defend itself. The harmony of the effort of living, the passion to pursue life, maintains the life. But maintaining a harmony, a non-conflicting motion within, is not trivial. Such a motion must address every type of potential conflict without losing its harmony within and falling into conflict with itself – misery and death.
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This harmony of life effort, to be effective, must increase its momentum (grow) else lose in competition with outside conflict. The strategies of growth are a very essential part of the effort of life, yet are seldom addressed and usually left on a note of merely “try to be peaceful and otherwise let nature take its course”. When such is done, other people, a part of nature, attacks.
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The current state of Buddhism in Communist China today, 2500 years later, testifies to both of these shortcomings.
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Without properly addressing these concerns, the “suffering” cannot truly end except for a few isolated cases out of the billions attempting it. Do you think anything ever going to be done about it?
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<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->Have I missed something concerning these issues? :o
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Comments

  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    Peace is a state, like a still pool of water, that must be defended from disturbance.
    The only thing that disturb your peace is you.

    Get "you" out of the way and there will be nothing left to disturb the peace.
    Drop wrote: »
    the mental faculties consumed by the effort to ignore such subtle torments leaves insufficient mental resources to achieve enlightenment even if a nirvanic state is felt.
    you don't strain your brain by ignoring the issues... you just let go of them.
    If anything, it free up "mental resources"; not the opposite.
  • edited April 2010
    patbb wrote: »
    The only thing that disturb your peace is you.

    Get "you" out of the way and there will be nothing left to disturb the peace.


    you don't strain your brain by ignoring the issues... you just let go of them.
    If anything, it free up "mental resources"; not the opposite.
    How can you believe that in today's climate? Do you live on a mountain far away from others?

    Not long ago, I ran across a man preaching of peace of mind. He was somewhat blaming the small group around him of not knowing peace merely because they would not calm themselves and allow it.

    After a little while of listening to others register their concerns, I reached down to the man's knee with my torch pipe lighter such that he could see me. When I lit it, he lost all signs of peace. He objected loudly and drew back his hand such as to strike at me.

    Everyone laughed... except me.

    The problem that I was demonstrating is very real. Take a student of peace-of-mind and hold a lit match to his skin and see how well he maintains his practice and clear mindedness. In effect, internally, especially in the West, such a dis-ease is occurring in most of the population without the need for anyone else to help it along.

    A man might learn to walk on the lake of fire. But he cannot learn it while being burned by it.
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    How can you believe that in today's climate?
    Because i've experienced this.
    Drop wrote: »
    Do you live on a mountain far away from others?
    I live in downtown Toronto, biggest city in Canada.


    regarding the rest of your post, inner peace doesn't mean not interacting with your environment and situations.
    an enlighten being is not a zombie
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    After a little while of listening to others register their concerns, I reached down to the man's knee with my torch pipe lighter such that he could see me. When I lit it, he lost all signs of peace. He objected loudly and drew back his hand such as to strike at me.

    Everyone laughed... except me.

    I bet you were are very proud of this story.

    I imagine, if that story is correctly related, that the man you encountered is more like yourself than a Buddha. Peace is active. Rather then letting the torch-lighter-bearers burn us, we kick away the lighter... without the rising of aggression as to "why would someone try to inflict harm on me" or "what is this asshole's problem" and other such unneeded mental stories that like to attach themselves to the situations around us.
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited April 2010
    The 2 concerns that seem to never really be addressed to a much needed level are;

    A)<!--[endif]-->Physiological/Medical discomfort, dis-ease such as to prevent meditation or calm kaya/vedana in the student.
    What'choo talkin' 'bout, Willis?

    The Dipa Sutta, Sallatha Sutta, Nakulapita Sutta, Gelanna Sutta, MN 36, MN 119, etc... to name a few.

    Modern-day teachings:

    http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-3529760254352711693#

    http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Articles/Thanissaro_an_Introduction_to_Pain.pdf

    http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books/Bhikkhu_Thanissaro_Using_meditation_to_deal_with_Pain_Illness_and_Death.htm

    Hell, even: http://thebuddhistblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/zen-of-pain.html
    The current state of Buddhism in Communist China today, 2500 years later, testifies to both of these shortcomings.
    Sorry, generally Buddhism in China is to the Buddha's teachings as "Chinese food" is to the food they actually eat in China. :crazy: Better to look within practicing sanghas of various traditions and speak with individual practitioners.
    B)<!--[endif]-->Momentous Harmony of Life required to defend the peace within.
    Don't really understand what you're trying to say even after all of your elaborations.
    Peace is active. Rather then letting the torch-lighter-bearers burn us, we kick away the lighter... without the rising of aggression as to "why would someone try to inflict harm on me" or "what is this asshole's problem" and other such unneeded mental stories that like to attach themselves to the situations around us.
    :uphand:
  • edited April 2010
    patbb wrote: »
    Because i've experienced this.

    I live in downtown Toronto, biggest city in Canada.
    Therefore...?

    Are you under the delusion that you are making a rational refutation?

    "I once crossed a busy highway without looking at all and didn't get a scratch!"
    Therefore...?
    patbb wrote: »
    regarding the rest of your post, inner peace doesn't mean not interacting with your environment and situations.
    an enlighten being is not a zombie
    The Buddha, having obtained, must focus on maintenance. The Student, having nothing to maintain, must focus on Obtainance.

    After one is enlightened and relatively pure in spirit, a great many things can be achieved. That is why he seeks it. The problem is not in what can be done once enlightenment is achieved, but rather the obstacles in obtaining it. One cannot merely let go of arthritis (for example). Ignoring them doesn't prevent them from stopping the student.
    The Infant an the Infantile
    Ignoring the rash and colic, the sage father instructed his infant son, "calm yourself and be at peace". :-/
    I will not continue to argue the existence of the issues. I am asking if anything is expected to ever be done about them. :cool:
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited April 2010
    :uphand:
    /begin getting in my own way

    hey!

    why didn't I get a thumb up to???

    soooooo angryyyyyyy!
    :nonono::mad: :mean::grumble::grr: :banghead:
    not enought emoticons to express my anger!!!

    not fair! I deserve a thumb up to!!!


    /end getting in my own way...
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    Buddhism seems to be taught in such a way as to imply that by mere thought, the discomforts from ailments such as arthritis, meningitis, or any of more than a thousand other variety of common subtle dis-eases that cause un-ending disturbance will all become irrelevant.
    The Buddha advised all without exception are subject to sickness; that the mind via non-attachment and acceptance can go beyond sickness.
    Yet every discomfort, as taught in the Anapanasati, detracts from the ability to progress.
    the anapanasati sutta only mentions calming rapture & happiness
    In addition, even if the discomforts were ignored, the mental faculties consumed by the effort to ignore such subtle torments leaves insufficient mental resources to achieve enlightenment even if a nirvanic state is felt.
    Nirvana is non-attachment, the absence of greed, hatred & delusion.

    Nirvana is not the absence of physical pain.
    <O></O>
    But then even if all dis-ease concerns were resolved, perhaps by escape and isolation, there is a serious issue, especially today, of how to defend the peace of mind. For how long will the person be left alone?
    The peace of mind you are refering to is not Nibbana.
    Peace is a state, like a still pool of water, that must be defended from disturbance.
    Your understanding is not Buddhist.

    Before his enlightenment, the Buddha-To-Be practised the most subtle concentration meditations, where the mental formations in the body & mind were calmed or completely tranquilised. This is the peace of concentration.

    The Buddha-To-Be saw this was not Nibbana then searched for six years until he realised 'not-self'.

    The Buddha realised Nibbana is not being (existentially) free from the inevitable birth (life necessities), aging, illness, death, physical pain & separation but accepting these things & not attaching to these things & not relating to them with ignorance & craving.

    Freedom from birth, aging, illness & death is the mind 'beyond' them.
    Have I missed something concerning these issues?
    Yes. You missed the Buddhism and have expressed an understanding based in yoga practises.

    Your post is about samadhi but empty of wisdom.

    Your post is about attachment to a conditioned state of 'peace'.

    :smilec:

    see: Upajjhatthana Sutta: Subjects for Contemplation

    see: Nakulapita Sutta
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    Therefore...?

    Are you under the delusion that you are making a rational refutation?

    "I once crossed a busy highway without looking at all and didn't get a scratch!"
    Therefore...?
    I was simply answering your question.
    Drop wrote: »
    One cannot merely let go of arthritis (for example
    You cannot let go of arthritis, but you can let go of the behavior of unskillfully reacting to it.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    I will not continue to argue the existence of the issues. I am asking if anything is expected to ever be done about them. :cool:

    The father in your story is not peaceful in his mind. Were he, his skillfulness in relating to the baby's subjective needs would be more precise.

    I think you make the assumption that you 'get it' which is preventing you from 'getting it'... but it might be an assumption from your signature, in which you all but declare yourself Buddha.

    Try loosening your assumptions. As an example, a Buddhist doctor, in the absence of clinging and aggression, might be much more skillful in relating to the arthritic hands of the elderly person you describe. An elderly person might be more skillful in listening to the doctor's recommendations as to how to deal with the solid formations in the hands. A stubborn mind might be more able to pickup the understandings from the people around it. So on and so forth...

    This peace does not need to be defended... it is cultivated. Defending will only fill up the space with not-peace... as there is clinging to a solid something to defend.

    With warmth,

    Matt
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    The Buddha, having obtained, must focus on maintenance. The Student, having nothing to maintain, must focus on Obtainance.
    The Buddha maintained mindfulness & wisdom (clear comprehension).

    But when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains came upon him. And the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed.

    After one is enlightened and relatively pure in spirit, a great many things can be achieved.
    Purity of spirit is a fruit of enlightenment but not enlightenment itself.

    Enlightenment itself is wisdom & direct insight.
    One cannot merely let go of arthritis (for example). Ignoring them doesn't prevent them from stopping the student.
    'Letting go' is not 'ignoring' something.

    :cool:
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2010
    patbb wrote: »
    Get "you" out of the way and there will be nothing left to disturb the peace.
    Well spoken. Get 'ego', 'self' or 'me' out of the way.

    'Ego', 'self' or 'me' is a kind of thinking or perception of things.

    This is the Buddha way.

    This is what the Buddha removed to find peace.

    :)
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Well spoken. Get 'ego', 'self' or 'me' out of the way.

    This is the Buddha way.

    :)
    yay! I got my thumb up!

    sweeeet :)

    ego is pleased...
    now begin craving for it's next thumb up


    ps:my intentions were not to be disrespectful to this thread... just playful (and arguably childish/immature/dumb/etc... ;)
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    A man might learn to walk on the lake of fire. But he cannot learn it while being burned by it.
    Hi Drop

    Do you have some physical abnormalities or diseases?

    I am just inquiring about your questioning.

    :)
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited April 2010
    patbb wrote: »
    /begin getting in my own way

    hey!

    why didn't I get a thumb up to???

    soooooo angryyyyyyy!
    :nonono::mad: :mean::grumble::grr: :banghead:
    not enought emoticons to express my anger!!!

    not fair! I deserve a thumb up to!!!


    /end getting in my own way...

    Lol my apologies! :lol:
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited April 2010
    patbb wrote: »
    now begin craving for it's next thumb up


    ... just playful (and arguably childish/immature/dumb/etc... ;)

    :uphand:
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited April 2010
    ^Omg, 2 for 1! What a deal! Way to go, Patbb. :grin::uphand:

    :lol:
  • edited April 2010
    aMatt wrote: »
    Try loosening your assumptions.
    What I am seeing, granted a possible error although not likely, is just the reverse in who is presuming. Let me explain one last time, then let it go.

    I read a story about Guatama expressing that after 40 years of teaching, only one of his 100 direct disciples actually really grasped and understood what he was trying to teach. No telling how true the story actually was, but looking into history tells a similar story.

    The story relays that 1% of his direct disciples actually "got it". Out of the billions that have sought to "get it" since then, I seriously doubt that even 1% ever "got it". It has been 2500 years and Buddhism seems to be at an all time low (primarily due to Communist politics).

    Different methods of teaching have arisen, but the subject they address has not changed as far as I can tell. The links provided by o0Mundus-Vult-Decipi0o (thank you kindly) speak of preparation for the event of dis-ease. That is in the right general direction, but hardly addresses the issue of how an infant avoids getting a nerve disorder that will keep his mind fully distracted from ever even hearing what any teacher really has to say about anything. Or having already fallen into that state, by what means can such a person even begin to calm down enough to listen, much less actually practice.

    The concern itself is acknowledged within the teachings merely by the instruction to find a quiet place and get into a comfortable posture before attempting to meditate. The need is known. What is not addressed is the "how" for the very, very many who cannot become comfortable enough to even get started.

    The momentum issue is of even greater concern in that it is what prevents society from creating more of the discomfort issues in the first place. But the momentum issue is one of not merely teaching, but doing what is necessary to ensure that disturbance cannot occur beyond a critical level even from outsiders who might be inspired to try. The old school method was simply to escape to the mountains.
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
    As expressed on other threads on this forum, such escape and isolation is seldom an option and certainly doesn't prevent society from encroaching.
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
    The momentum concept can be visualized by a bicycle wheel trying to keep balance on one end of its axle. If the wheel is not in motion, at peace, it cannot maintain its own balance. But if the wheel is spinning with maximum momentum, the wheel is difficult to disturb in any way by anything. The harmony of a life is the wheel.
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
    And I’m sorry if my signature offends you, Matt. I do not judge people quite the same way as you seem to. My ego is not such that I feel offended by someone expressing what they believe to be wisdom and it isn’t a challenge against me, but rather a kindness in gesture, whether they intended egotism with it or not. If no one is willing to express what they consider wisdom, even in such a quite manner, how can anyone ever benefit from it?
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  • edited April 2010
    Do you have some physical abnormalities or diseases?
    More than you could image and I know that I am no where near alone. I have been "atop of the mountain". I know what is being discussed. And I know why I am not there any more. I know what is in my way and the way of a great, great many others - BILLIONS.

    What I do not know is what "Buddhism" might be willing to do about it. I have already examined the Abramic religions concerning such things. They acknowledge the problem but have their own way of "handling" it.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2010
    i am not sure what you said but 'the will of god' or 'the way of nature' is basically the same principle

    buddhism teaches the way of nature (dhammatithata)

    both end with acceptance & the cessation of unrealistic craving

    the buddha deemed the cessation of craving as 'nibbana'

    :smilec:
  • edited April 2010
    A)<!--[endif]-->Physiological/Medical discomfort, dis-ease such as to prevent meditation or calm kaya/vedana in the student.
    much physical pain is caused by long ago craving-desire, but we fail to see beyond the immediate causes, and thoughts in the past have created this incomprehensible suffering of today, which is why it is so hard for a few thoughts even of buddhadharma to be an immediately palatable cure
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    but hardly addresses the issue of how an infant avoids getting a nerve disorder
    They address this issue by teaching that sometimes there is just nothing you can do to avoid a disease, so we should accept them as part of how reality is.
    Drop wrote: »
    that will keep his mind fully distracted from ever even hearing what any teacher really has to say about anything.
    Well if someone truly has no control on his mind, then one cannot even learn to speak or do anything... and it's just the way it is.
    Enlightenment and liberation might not be for that person at that time. I know it's not fair.

    If medicine can do something about it, or the kid has some kind of control over his mind, then good. So the kid can eventually grasp some concept, little by little, slowly...
    Drop wrote: »
    Or having already fallen into that state, by what means can such a person even begin to calm down enough to listen, much less actually practice.
    Perhaps there are some moments when the storm calms down.
    Drop wrote: »
    The concern itself is acknowledged within the teachings merely by the instruction to find a quiet place and get into a comfortable posture before attempting to meditate.
    I believe they meant: "as quiet as possible" and "as comfortable as possible"...
    If the most comfortable posture is the least painful than it is this one.
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    What is not addressed is the "how" for the very, very many who cannot become comfortable enough to even get started.
    Perhaps you could relate to Ajahn Brahm toothache story.
    (Where his discomfort did not prevent him from beginning meditation, in fact, lead to a breakthrough...)

    Fear of Pain

    by Ajahn Brahm

    brahm_ajahn.jpgFear is the major ingredient of pain. It is what makes pain hurt. Take away the fear and only feeling is left. In the mid-1970s, in a poor and remote forest monastery in northeast Thailand, I had a bad toothache. There was no dentist to go to, no telephone, and no electricity. We didn't even have any aspirin or paracetamol in the medicine chest. Forest monks were expected to endure.
    In the late evening, as often seems to happen with sickness, the toothache grew steadily worse and worse. I considered myself quite a tough monk but that toothache was testing my strength. One side of my mouth was solid with pain. It was by far the worst toothache I had ever had, or have ever had since. I tried to escape the pain by meditating on the breath. I had learned to focus on my breath when the mosquitoes were biting; sometimes I counted forty on my body at the same time, and I could overcome one feeling by focusing on another. But this pain was extraordinary. I would fill my mind with the feeling of the breath for only two or three seconds, then the pain would kick in the door of the mind that I'd closed, and come bursting in with a furious force.
    I got up, went outside and tried walking meditation. I soon gave that up too. I wasn't 'walking' meditation; I was 'running' meditation. I just couldn't walk slowly. The pain was in control: it made me run. But there was nowhere to run to. I was in agony. I was going crazy.
    I ran back into my hut, sat down and started chanting. Buddhist chants are said to possess supernormal power. They can bring you fortune, drive away dangerous animals, and cure sickness and pain -- or so it is said. I didn't believe it. I'd been trained as a scientist. Magic chanting was all hocus-pocus, only for the gullible. So I began chanting, hoping beyond reason that it would work. I was desperate. I soon had to stop that too. I realized I was shouting the words, screaming them. It was very late and I was afraid I would wake up the other monks. With the way I was bellowing out those verses, I would probably have woken the whole village a couple of kilometers away! The power of the pain wouldn't let me chant normally.
    I was alone, thousands of miles from my home country, in a remote jungle with no facilities, in unendurable pain with no escape. I'd tried everything I knew, everything. I just couldn't go on. That's what it was like.
    A moment of sheer desperation like that unlocks doors into wisdom, doors that are never seen in ordinary life. One such door opened to me then, and I went through it. Frankly, there was no alternative.
    I remembered two short words: 'let go'. I had heard those words many times before. I had expounded on their meaning to my friends. I thought I knew what they meant: such is delusion. I was willing to attempt anything, so I tried letting go, one hundred percent letting go. For the first time in my life, I really let go.
    What happened next shook me. That terrible pain immediately vanished. It was replaced with the most delectable bliss. Wave upon wave of pleasure thrilled through my body. My mind settled into a deep state of peace, so still, so delicious. I meditated easily, effortlessly now. After my meditation, in the early hours of the morning, I lay down to get some rest. I slept soundly, peacefully. When I woke up in time for my monastic duties, I noticed I had a toothache. But it was nothing compared to the previous night.

    -rest of the story here
    http://lola-jameson.com/painrelief.html
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    The concern itself is acknowledged within the teachings merely by the instruction to find a quiet place and get into a comfortable posture before attempting to meditate. The need is known. What is not addressed is the "how" for the very, very many who cannot become comfortable enough to even get started.

    This is where a good teacher comes into practice. It does happen where a student's mind or body is so ensnared by present maladies that they cannot hear beyond their own vibrations. If the teacher is good, they can see directly through the fogginess, much for the reasons I said. The teacher has the skillful means of offering correct subjective help to the person.

    I regret that you are feeling presumed, I'm attempting to understand the version of the world you're seeing. It appears to me that you are exothermic, which makes passing ideas toward you difficult, as you seem to want to say, not listen. I agree with you this might be my assumption, which is why I specifically said that it might be the case. I am going only off the fruit I see on the table... there is a lot of distance between your mind and mine.

    The reason I brought up your possible solidity in this regard is because it appears that there is a grasping at Buddhism... wanting it to be more than what it is, or wanting the precepts to fill every hole. It isn't intended to do that. It is something that gets the crap out of the way so you can fill the hole yourself. As this idea has been offered in a few ways, there has been no indication that it has been absorbed or reflected, which leaves me wondering if it was deflected.

    You don't have to adapt the teachings to fit a mind where it cannot reach. Rather, if you personally follow the teachings, when the time comes to interact with the mind in need, you will be clear enough to do so skillfully. Ie, the father with a clear mind will directly understand how to care properly for the child.

    Trying to teach the child Buddhism isn't the most skillful way, they're a baby. This doesn't mean that the precepts are not being upheld because you do something other than browbeat a baby with the eight fold path. On the contrary, the more directly you can give up the attachment to the teachings, the more available you are to help soothe the baby.

    With warmth,

    Matt
  • edited April 2010
    It seems as though when a person defines "enlightenment" as a noun, a THING to be achieved, that they are making a problem for themselves. The same with looking into Buddhist scriptures to answer ones' unsolvable "questions". The only way Buddhism cuts through this type of mental materialism is through actual practicing "stilling the mind", "stopping the constant flow of meaning making thoughts/concepts", and learning to live that way in any circumstance. This does not mean that you will not suffer when illness strikes, or old age comes, and death approaches or the ten thousand other maladies. It means that you will not add to that suffering unnecessarily. I am reminded of the story where the seeker is looking for the elephant by following its' tracks...always looking down and not knowing that they are going in circles, while right behind them is the elephant. It is not a big deal to practice with one's mind empty and heart open. It is the only way to get to the bottom of questions that can not be answered.
  • edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    <o></o>
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
    The 2 concerns that seem to never really be addressed to a much needed level are;
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
    <!--[if !supportLists]-->A)<!--[endif]-->Physiological/Medical discomfort, dis-ease such as to prevent meditation or calm kaya/vedana in the student.
    <!--[if !supportLists]-->B)<!--[endif]-->Momentous Harmony of Life required to defend the peace within.
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>

    <!--[endif]--><o></o>
    These concerns are exhaustively covered in Tibetan Buddhism.
  • edited April 2010
    These concerns are exhaustively covered in Tibetan Buddhism.
    I can imagine how much of (1) is handled, but I would be very interested in how they address (2). As far as I know, no one has ever handled (2) very well. Taoism recognizes it and addresses it, but seems to fall short.
  • edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    I can imagine how much of (1) is handled, but I would be very interested in how they address (2). As far as I know, no one has ever handled (2) very well. Taoism recognizes it and addresses it, but seems to fall short.

    Nearly every practice in the Tibetan tradition has latent functions that directly impact the "harmony of life" in ways that make ones day to day life more conducive to practice and realization. Different forms are Tara have different effects, Dzambhala effects prosperity, Manjushri effects intelligence and wisdom, Garuda helps prevent and remove illness, Dorje Drollo, removes obstacles etc. Heck I even know of a practice that can help you get pregnant.
    the list could go on and on and on.
  • edited April 2010
    Heck I even know of a practice that can help you get pregnant.
    the list could go on and on and on.
    I think I am aware of that one. :D

    Might there be links to the issue of "momentum of harmony" specifically. It is the momentum concern that is always left out. Everyone addresses the harmony issue with regards to peacefulness, associating Heaven with merely serenity. I consider that to be perhaps the most profound mistake in all of Man's history. The issue is lightly touched on in various sects, but it seems to never really be directly attended to and thus something I see as extremely important has always been over looked or under emphasized. The result is that the other teachings struggle against a tide of ignorance that slows and stifles the progress of sanity.
  • edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    I think I am aware of that one. :D

    Might there be links to the issue of "momentum of harmony" specifically. It is the momentum concern that is always left out. Everyone addresses the harmony issue with regards to peacefulness, associating Heaven with merely serenity. I consider that to be perhaps the most profound mistake in all of Man's history. The issue is lightly touched on in various sects, but it seems to never really be directly attended to and thus something I see as extremely important has always been over looked or under emphasized. The result is that the other teachings struggle against a tide of ignorance that slows and stifles the progress of sanity.
    What exactly do you mean by momentum.
    I'm quite certain its covered.
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited April 2010
    I think I am aware of that one.

    xD
  • edited April 2010
    What exactly do you mean by momentum.
    I'm quite certain its covered.
    "Momentum" refers to the total amount of motion involved rather than merely having the motion in harmony. A simple view would be the difference between a slow turning wheel and a very fast turning wheel. Another example might be a waltz or ballet versus a stroll through the park. They both have the same harmony, but the fast one has much more momentum. The more momentous a life is, the more difficult it is to disturb it or de-harmonize it if it is truly in harmony. "A man fully engaged in his business hasn't the time to sin."

    This might seem like a trite issue, but it is the most significant issue of all life, yet isn't obvious to those who get confused on the issue of purpose of life.
  • edited April 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    "Momentum" refers to the total amount of motion involved rather than merely having the motion in harmony. A simple view would be the difference between a slow turning wheel and a very fast turning wheel. Another example might be a waltz or ballet versus a stroll through the park. They both have the same harmony, but the fast one has much more momentum. The more momentous a life is, the more difficult it is to disturb it or de-harmonize it if it is truly in harmony. "A man fully engaged in his business hasn't the time to sin."

    This might seem like a trite issue, but it is the most significant issue of all life, yet isn't obvious to those who get confused on the issue of purpose of life.
    Tantra literally means continuity. The idea of spiritual momentum permeates the whole tradition from origin, lineage, to individual.
  • edited April 2010
    I think Tantra relates more to coherency and purity. Such concepts are of course necessary, but what I am looking for is anyone teaching of the primary concern of the strategy of continuance involving momentum (which defines life itself).
  • edited May 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    I think Tantra relates more to coherency and purity.

    it doesnt.
    those things are covered but they are far from central.
  • edited May 2010
    Well, I can't seem to find anything that seems to relate to the concept of momentum;
    Tantrism is a quest for spiritual perfection and magical power. Its purpose is to achieve complete control of oneself, and of all the forces of nature, in order to attain union with the cosmos and with the divine. Long training is generally required to master Tantric methods, into which pupils are typically initiated by a guru. Yoga, including breathing techniques and postures (asana), is employed to subject the body to the control of the will. Mudras, or gestures; mantras or syllables, words and phrases; mandalas and yantras, which are symbolic diagrams of the forces at work in the universe, are all used as aids for meditation and for the achievement of spiritual and magical power.
    During meditation, the initiate identifies herself or himself with any of the numerous Hindu gods and goddesses representing cosmic forces. The initiate visualizes them and takes them into her or his mind so that she or he unites with them, a process likened to sexual courtship and consummation.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Cavendish.2C_Richard_1980_9-0">[10]</sup> In fact, some Tantric monks use females partners to represent goddesses. Also, in left-handed Tantra (Vamachara), ritual sexual intercourse is employed—not for pleasure—but as a way of entering into the underlying processes and structure of the
    The Instead of the Kundalini-Shakti or "Serpent Fire" of Shakta Tantrism, Vajrayana has the Tumo (literally "fierce woman"). Through intense visualisation of deities and concentration upon the "lower tip" (the minor chakra at the tip of the sex-organ), the winds (prana) are drawn into the lower opening of the central channel (sushumna), producing an intense heat, called tumo [Daniel Cozort, <cite>Highest Yoga Tantra</cite>, p.71]. In her fascinating book, <cite>Magic and Mystery in Tibet</cite> Alexandra David-Neel popularised stories of Tibetan yogis drying icy sheets with their naked bodies outside in the middle of winter. That is a showy exhibition of tumo. Real tumo of course is the tantric meditation itself.


    As a result of the tumo-heat, the drops melt and enter the central channel. The red "female" drops in the navel chakra ascends to the heart chakra, while the white drops in the crown chakra descend to the same chakra. The bliss of the drops flowing in the central channel is said to be a hundred times greater than that of orgasm [p.71]. The drops, moving up or down the central channel, finally enter the "indestructable drop" in the heart chakra, so called because it is said to be drop that passes from life-time to life-time, taking with it the "very subtle mind" and "very subtle wind" [p.72].
    The entire visualisation or meditation stage itself is called the stage of Generation, as its purpose of is to construct or generate an actual enlightenment or buddha-body, the stage of Completion. The result of all this is that one rises in an "illusory body", so called because it is a spirit body rather than a physical body, and at death, rather than be caught up by the bardo and reincarnation, one remains in full consciousness in the illusory body, so attaining Buddhahood.
    It looks like it would be fun for a lot of people, but doesn't seem to be related to what I'm talking about.

    Taoism gets into the aspect of increased harmonic energy of life a little (qi), but it seems as though they didn't recognize the value of what they were talking about, where it would lead, and thus left it as sort of an interesting side note while focusing more on Wu wei.

    In every contest or struggle, momentum determines the victor and the final state; the judiciary of Dharma.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited May 2010
    The problem with momentum is that it requires continual work and has a significant lack of stability when encountering obstacles. In the case of your wheel, it does have more gyroscopic stability, but toss a bat in the center and it halts abruptly and violently. Such is the same with energetic force... place an obstacle in front of it, and no matter how fast it is going it'll splat... unless of course the mass is high enough to pierce the wall.

    This is a common mistake that philosophers make, because no matter how assured they become, when they meet a contrary ideology, the mass of their ideas have to be greater than the mass of the other... and the higher the mass the less maneuverable the view.

    Contrast that to 'air' which allows other phenomena to pass through it unhindered... like the meditative observation of natural phenomena in an uncluttered in mind. It bears no momentum, but does have the space and stability to observe phenomena in a way that does not uproot the view.

    I suggest the difference in analogies, because instead of projecting some form through eternity, as the slogan offers... perhaps it would be more fruitful to develop the ability to dissolve the form entirely, where the view will shift to one where eternity is already present.
  • edited May 2010
    aMatt wrote: »
    The problem with momentum is that it requires continual work and has a significant lack of stability when encountering obstacles.
    Obviously you do not understand the subject and expressing the very need for someone to have taught of it better. You are describing the exact opposite of Momentum.

    Momentum IS is "work" itself. It is the storage of the power to continue. When a harmony is established, the degree of work required to increase the momentum is at minimum. The harmony is certainly essential, but harmony without momentum is soon lost even to the wind.

    In your attempt to defeat the wheel analogy (a very limited analogy), the issue was about any attempt to cause the wheel to lose balance or fall over, the bat being dropped onto it would most certainly cause the non-spinning wheel to fall over much easier than the spinning wheel. Merely touching the non-spinning, peaceful wheel could easily cause it to fall. The motion of the spinning wheel would throw the bat clear of the momentous, continuing-to-turn wheel that might wobble, but would not fall.

    Of course if you dropped a truck onto the wheel it would probably lose its balance also. It was only a quick analogy to convey the general idea.

    When it comes to philosophy, Momentum is the combination of "actual real truth" with the number of minds and amount of mind accepting and using it. If everyone on the planet accepted the 4NTs and used them, then the 4NTs would have more Momentum and thus be more difficult to forget or ignore.

    If you seek to nihilism, the entirety of Buddhism gets erased into the abyss of forgotten past dreams.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    In your attempt to defeat the wheel analogy (a very limited analogy), the issue was about any attempt to cause the wheel to lose balance or fall over, the bat being dropped onto it would most certainly cause the non-spinning wheel to fall over much easier than the spinning wheel. Merely touching the non-spinning, peaceful wheel could easily cause it to fall. The motion of the spinning wheel would throw the bat clear of the momentous, continuing-to-turn wheel that might wobble, but would not fall.

    Of course if you dropped a truck onto the wheel it would probably lose its balance also. It was only a quick analogy to convey the general idea.

    Odd that you would be consider my relating as an attempt to defeat something.
    Momentum is mass plus velocity of an object, no? It requires a solid form. My point is that unless it operates in a vacuum, it does in fact require energy to maintain and is oppressed by obstacles, whose simple existence creates collision.

    This is true of people who cling to ideological objects, such as beliefs. When they encounter resistance to the beliefs, what happens?

    With warmth,

    Matt
  • edited May 2010
    aMatt wrote: »
    Odd that you would be consider my relating as an attempt to defeat something.
    Persistent presumptuous accusations is why I have to view things as "attempts to defeat".
    aMatt wrote: »
    Momentum is mass plus velocity of an object, no? It requires a solid form. My point is that unless it operates in a vacuum, it does in fact require energy to maintain and is oppressed by obstacles, whose simple existence creates collision.

    This is true of people who cling to ideological objects, such as beliefs. When they encounter resistance to the beliefs, what happens?

    The wind has momentum, without which it could accomplish nothing at all. You are getting concerned about the aspect of density which has nothing to do with momentum.

    The distinction between wind and water is merely density. Earth adds even more density but also ridgedness (the "firmament"). Ridgedness is NOT required for momentum although it often helps depending on the situation.


    The issue of not adapting is one of placing efforts in the wrong direction at the wrong time. It is an issue of not watching or being aware, but instead attempting to presume righteousness rather than examine and analyse the real sitaution. Ego, politics, and religion are all effects from the desire to not examine the situation but merely blindly push forward.

    Ridgedness is your complaint, not Momentum.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited May 2010
    "Persistent presumptuous accusations" sounds awfully dark. Is that how you view my words?

    You cannot have momentum without an object, and the smaller the object (in mass) the less momentum it can have, or the more energy (velocity) it takes to hold any momentum. In the case of the wind, if you stop a fan, the air in the room does not continue out of momentum, because the mass of the air is so small as to make the momentum almost 0. momentum=mass*velocity, empirically at least.

    The reason I extend this distinction, is because when approaching momentum in the realm of spiritual conceptions, I think it folly to assume that there is an object to act this force upon. Some have even described the phenomena you describe as ego... what do you think about:
    ego=aggregates*clinging

    (a reflection of momentum=mass*velocity)

    With warmth,

    Matt
  • edited May 2010
    aMatt wrote: »
    "Persistent presumptuous accusations" sounds awfully dark. Is that how you view my words?
    Often. It stems from the attack of opinions rather than the offering of better opinions that might happen to be contrary.
    aMatt wrote: »
    You cannot have momentum without an object, and the smaller the object (in mass) the less momentum it can have, or the more energy (velocity) it takes to hold any momentum. In the case of the wind, if you stop a fan, the air in the room does not continue out of momentum, because the mass of the air is so small as to make the momentum almost 0. momentum=mass*velocity, empirically at least.
    I think you might need to reread my last post. Your physics is a little off. Even a photon has momentum yet has no mass.

    The air doesn't keep moving in the room due to the lack of harmony. The air is highly frictional and thus all of the energy used to move it becomes merely heat. When you turn off the fan, the air can't continue merely because the energy has been changed into the chaos of heat rather than a harmony of motion. Harmony is a more useful form of energy than the fire of chaos. In terms of economics (the only reason this is discussed), fire creates the appearance of more wealth, but it does it through a means of destruction (divorces, law suits, bankruptcies,...). It is actually only releasing energy/wealth that was already there in the form of the harmony of relationships. The chaos only serves to warm the feet of those above it all. Harmony allows energy to be directed in ANY direction of need.

    I am only talking about the difference represented by air moving instead of standing still, or water flowing rather than stagnant in a pond, or the Earth rotating rather than merely sitting still in space. There are other attributes to consider, especially for life itself. There is a momentum of intelligence wherein the "mass" is the knowledge. The direction of the flow of learning/awareness and effort/motion are directed by wisdom. The momentum is increased as more knowledge, wisdom, and effort are in play and in harmony.

    A "mountain" of knowledge is formed as a "mass" for the momentum of life to maintain its under-standing while it dances and flows through the narrows of obscurity. Momentum is what keeps it going while it rests and sleeps.

    The conflict between Buddhism and Communism was determined by the amount of momentum that was presented at that time. The Momentum of Buddhism had faded into a stillness that had no defense against the momentous machine of Communism.

    Understand Momentum better and such conflicts need not be lost. Without such understanding, Chaos and the use of fire and destruction provide the only momentum through energy and end up producing misery for everyone.

    Objects, in physics, are merely dense or locked energy. Momentum is a different concern involving inertia, the continuance of motion. The more mass you have, the harder it is to stop what is moving and thus, if not aimed properly, is harder to change its direction. On the other hand, without mass, constant pushing is required because nothing carries beyond the distance it is pushed and it takes nothing to stop or destroy something even though it is easier to change its direction.

    The lack of momentum is non-existence or death.
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    When it comes to philosophy, Momentum is the combination of "actual real truth" with the number of minds and amount of mind accepting and using it. If everyone on the planet accepted the 4NTs and used them, then the 4NTs would have more Momentum and thus be more difficult to forget or ignore.
    on a more personnal level, when seeking enlightment,
    once you know the magician trick, you are never fooled by the illusion again.

    you are going through a series of these illusions, figuring them out one by one.

    Momentum is useful to maintain energy to go through all of the illusions.

    But once you went through all of the illusions, or you figured out the whole show was an act at once, there is no need for momentum anymore.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited May 2010
    I don't know. Your assertion feels all solidy. Saying Buddhism lost to Communism? Really?

    In order for an object to have momentum at little or no mass it has to be travelling at relativistic speeds. Where momentum=Sqrt[(E/c)2 - (mc)2]... without mass you have p=E/c. So if the total energy of the massless form isn't close to the speed of light its momentum will be insignificant. When travelling at organic speeds, p≈mv. Correct?

    I think patbb has said directly what I was trying to help you see. You're staring at objects without form, calculating imaginary concepts... better to drop the perception that any of that crap is solid.

    Its better to attract than advertise.

    With luck,

    Matt
  • edited May 2010
    patbb wrote: »
    .. the whole show was an act at once, there is no need for momentum anymore.
    Only non-existence has no need for Momentum.
    aMatt wrote: »
    Its better to attract than advertise.
    That statement lacks in understanding of both concepts involved in it, "it is better to be well read than well written." And I have no idea to what it was applied.
  • edited May 2010
    Drop wrote: »
    Well, I can't seem to find anything that seems to relate to the concept of momentum;

    It looks like it would be fun for a lot of people, but doesn't seem to be related to what I'm talking about.

    Taoism gets into the aspect of increased harmonic energy of life a little (qi), but it seems as though they didn't recognize the value of what they were talking about, where it would lead, and thus left it as sort of an interesting side note while focusing more on Wu wei.

    In every contest or struggle, momentum determines the victor and the final state; the judiciary of Dharma.
    That reference is a poor one indeed.
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