Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
order of path moments in terms of 3 marks
mettafou
Veteran
i think ledi sayadaw said stream entry comes with seeing anatta, then repeat, then the next fruit follows from seeing anicca, and then finally from seeing dukkha. can someone clarify this; the significance or reality of this?
0
Comments
I think you're getting caught in the world of knowledge here. Its not knowledge of these three marks that do it, its 'seeing them directly'. For instance, if you still the self enough to get a glimpse into anatta, its from that level of clarity that anicca is more obvious. Ie... if you stop identifying with the self, then you can see how all conceptions and labels are impermanent and subjective. Once you see the impermanence very directly, you can start to see how it is from clinging to those conceptions that egos dance with dukkha.
They of course are all connected, existing as part of the same rhythm.
With warmth,
Matt
ledi sayadaw sounds a bit technical here, like developing his own abdhidhamma
however without trying to create some unflexible doctine, i would agree with him some what
when the meditation object becomes lucid to the mind, the mind will see the anatta of the object first
for example, it will see "the body breathes" rather than "I breathe"
the same for a feeling
when feeling arises clearly enough to be seen as mere feeling rather than "I", then the lucidity of that mere feeling is immediately seen as anatta because the realisation occurs "I am not feeling"..."there is just feeling"
when the meditation object arises with such clarity, then the anicca of it can be seen clearly
when the anicca is seen clearly then the unsatisfactory nature and 'danger' of attaching to it will be seen
so in a way...yes...anatta is seen first because the meditation object is seen as merely the meditation object when the mind becomes very clear
however, i cannot see why ledi sayadaw needs to mention this
when the mind is ready for insight then basically they all occur together
this is why the buddha in anapanasati only taught 'seeing impermanence'
where there is impermanence, there is dukkha; where there is impermanence & dukkha, there is not-self
Then about 10 minutes after this experience (this is on retreat)...the mind turned in on itself to re-experience this state of no subject again....the "I" was seen as just the sum of sensations arising so fast and blipping in and out of any other experience of bodily sensations....it was all experienced as just sensations and images...nothing more..
Then, it was like, in my memory of the event...this happened 4 months ago, the word "anatta" kind of floated by in the mind...immediately the "I" sensations were seen as just substanceless fluff...there was no "I" there, then directly after this realization, the word "anicca" floated by, once again the sensations of "I" were seen as to pass away as soon as they arose, but not really pass away slowly, they arose and stopped dead as soon as they arose. So impermanent. Then it just made sense...not intellectually, but experientially. For years I had been dwelling on the three characterisitics, but not until that moment did they make perfect sense. That was it..."dukkha" became so obvious because of the other two characteristics, and as soon as that was realized...all this happened within 30 seconds or so....I felt slight pulling up sensations at the crown of the head, and something not remembered happened...the mind just felt like it blipped out for a brief fraction of a second, it came back online and as my eyes were closed, I could see what seemed to be a sun shining through my eyelids. I opened my eyes and asked myself in shock, what was that?...Was that it? ...I was expecting something more spectacular.....
Well, within 20 minutes I realized something had changed in the mind....the mind which was previously cloudy was now completey clear..t felt like there was extra space in my head....I felt blissed out.....later I started seeing myself cycling automatically through the nanas starting at the 4th Arising and Passing nana up to equanimity of formations and then a frution/blip out would occur and 3 seconds later a bliss wave so soothing would spread throughout the body.
Other things confirmed that it was stream entry, like easy access to the 8 jhanas, constant fruitions, learning how to call them up when i wanted, the mind is 1000 times more concentrated than before and I have absolutely no doubt what the Buddha was talking about. It is real!!!!
And anyone can do it!....if they apply themselves in the correct way.
And for those who think that it is wrong to talk about this and therefore I am not a stream enterer because I admit it...not talking about it is not innate in the experience of stream entry...That is a cultural thing....I am anti-secrecy about this..What IS born of this experience is wanting others to do the same and get it done as well.
Happy to answer any questions about practicing to get it done!
From my conversations with others who are getting it done, There are many ways to get 1st path. My way was seeing the sensations of "I" and that is what I would tell people to do. In my opinion, 2 of the three characteristics must be seen in their entirety and the third will become so clear. I don't think it has to be anatta first...any two then the third becomes crystal clear......for me, dukkha was the last characteristic I realized fully and therefore went through the dukkha door to fruition.
Hope this helps...
Wonderful!!!
this is not just a cultural thing
each time anyone argue with a stream-winner that he is not, he (the one who is arguing) is collecting bad kamma without knowing how bad it is
so it is better not to
this is the side effect/sub-product/noble thought or the true compassion
it says, some penetrate anatta first and then anicca and dukka becomes clear
for some it is anicca first
and
some it is dukka first