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Hello everyone,
I'm a new member and I thought this would be a good thread to use to expose myself a little.
I always tryed to be a warm and fuzzy Atheist. I figured there is enough puke in the world why make it worse? Human beans is all we have. Be nice maybe one will save your life some day. We all came from the same stuff. We'll all go back. (sound familiar? I thought I came up with these ideas) Anyway I've always rejected the supernatural. Even in fourth grade I was afraid the teacher would wig out on me for not saying "under God". Over the years I had come to be very anti-religion. These interesting times we live in didn't help my attitude.
Then I saw His Holiness the Dalai Lama on LinkTV. I kept agreeing with him on everything he said. He is a great man! So thanks to His Holiness I've been studying Buddha's teachings for six months or so. His Holiness always points out that all religions are important, and can help people. That religions are not that different anyway. This helps me relate to alot of people I sort of wrote off. Some people may not approve of my ideas but I can balance that with tolerance. I can still try to help with their suffering.
It's good to have some Sangha, thanks
I agree with you about HH the Dalai Lama. A great man for sure. I'm reading one of his books at the moment.
Make yourself at home. It's nice to see you.
Brigid
Which one Brigid? I have just finished Ancient Wisdom, Modern World" which is a brilliant introduction to anyone who doesn't want to have to wade through the sutras and just get the basic ideas - I've already sent a copy to a stressed out friend in the UK. :ukflag:
You may enjoy HHDL's autobiographies, particularly if you read them in the order he wrote them. They really give you insight into how he, as a "simple Buddhist monk", has grown and developed his views. His curiosity about and genuine interest in the people he meets remains the strongest memory that I have of him. He managed to recognise an American whom he had met, once, five years earlier and who was simply presenting him (that day) with a white scarf (khatag) at a public audience! Amazing.
Thanks for the welcome.
NirvanaNoob
I have my arguments but it always comes down to because God said. They believe, I do not. Its like two crazy people arguing with each other, pointless.
I guess I'm exploring Buddhism because Atheism doesn't explain spirituality well enough for me.
PS Im going to look for a thread on books by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I have four already. I'm studying his book The Four Noble Truths right now.
Which one Brigid? I have just finished Ancient Wisdom, Modern World" which is a brilliant introduction to anyone who doesn't want to have to wade through the sutras and just get the basic ideas - I've already sent a copy to a stressed out friend in the UK. :ukflag:
Knitwitch,
I'm reading "An Open Heart: Practicing Compassion in Everyday Life" and "Practicing Wisdom: The Perfection of Shantideva's Bodhisattva Way". They're 2001 and 2005 respectively. I really like him. There's just something about the way he puts things together that makes sense to me. Have I said I really like him? lol! I love the man soooo much. I just want to hug him. I always forget that he's quite the scholar. It also seems like he's an amazing teacher because unlike many great scholars, (like some of my professors), he can explain complex things in a very simple way. It still takes me eons to read the book, like all Buddhism books, but I love pondering over a book. It's my greatest joy.
If you want, and if you like the book you're reading now (which, incidentally, is one of the few available on Amazon that I didn't buy, :sadc: ) we could start a thread in a few months to talk about his books. We'll play it by ear.
Love to Brigid. Yes I love these books because it is such enormous common sense - I keep reading and going "OH well of course, yes, that's true, blindingly obvious really ..." and wondering if it's THAT damned obvious why I didn't work it out for myself.
And that's why I sent a 2nd hand copy to my friend in UK - poor love is stuck in the commuter hamster wheel and needs something to bring him back to the moment easily and quickly without having to pause, reflect and cogitate. Something that will grab his attention now and he can turn over in his mind while stuck in a traffic jam.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited February 2006
Reading Midfully whilst driving is an offence under the 1736 London Road Traffic Act, Section B III Sub-section D/16447:
"And verily it shall be found that if ye is reading a book, however mindfully, and ye do rear-end the veritable Knight stuck in the traffic jam infront of you, and thereby do shunt his horse's ass, then ye will incur the harshest penalty of the law, as well as losing three points on your horse licence and paying excessive premiums on your equine insurance.
Verily.
So there."
I understand that possession of, let alone reading, works by the frightful terrorist, Tenzin Gyatso, a.k.a the "Dalai Lama" will fall under the strictures of the new Act to stamp out "glorifying terrorism". It's not that he says to go out and bomb Chinese embassies, it is the fact that he is so rude about Mr Murdoch's friends in Beijing.
Simon,
When a great nation such as China can't come to terms with one such as the HHDL, It is proof enough for me of samsara.(suffering). Its sick.
and so my conversion to Buddhism continues.
I was reading the Dalai Lama today and I'm not quoting, but what I got out of it was this:everyone can see how interdependant we are (atheists included) and so they should also be able to see the wisdom of kindness. Again he put into words what I've felt for a very long time. I'm not sure if I'm Buddhist or just the HHDL's greatest fan.
I humbly submit that for me the Buddhist view on this universal truth is more profound because it based more on logic and reason.
Hello Sangha,
My Mom went and bought the DVD Life of Buddha a film by Martin Meissonnier. Its very nice, alot of filming in India and Tibet, and a few fundamental notions by the Venerable Thich Nhat Hahn in the "extras".
In one part they talk about the Prince Sidhartha seeing animal sacrifice and how that too encouraged him to seek enlightenment. (they had real images yuck!) This got me thinking about the last time I went to church which was quite a few years ago. I knew there was no chance of conversion, but I had decided to go to be with my wife and other family members and get reminded of kindness etc. But when they got to the part where the Pastor, choir, and congregation sang a hymn asking if I was washed in the blood of the lamb,(yikes!) I decided this just wasn't for me.
Please know I mean no disrespect to anyone or any religion. The point I guess is that Atheists at least don't have to reconcile animal sacrifice as part of their (lack of) religion.
Perhaps(I don't know) the hymn is a parable about being washed by the blood of christ, in other words being accepted into the congregation etc. Jesus, was also known as the Lamb of God-meaning he was sacrificed so that we may live eternally.
Just a thought, I may be completey wrong-I'm no expert.
Xray
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2006
Yes Jake, this is purely symbolic... it's where we get the phrase 'Lamb to the Slaughter' Jesus was perceived as a Gentle saviour...The Bible is littered with similes and allegorical imagery....
jesus shed his blood for our sins, that we might be saved... so we would be washed in the blood of the lamb, in order to attain salvation....
Hello Friends,
Dear Xrayman, and Federica,
I'm not a Bible scholar, but I seem to remember people in the Old Testament did practice animal sacrifice, and I think lamb was a favorite. A Christian friend told me all that came to an end with Jesus. (go Jesus!) Remember you're dealing with a life-long Atheist/Buddhist wannabe here, the symbolism of "Are You Washed in the Blood of the Lamb" comes out all wrong for me.
In contrast, I recently heard a talented Preacher tell the story of Jesus healing the leper. It was profound, it nearly brought me to tears.(oh OK it did, but not like a baby) It reminded me of reading about aversion being a "wrong view" in Buddhism. It reminded me of my son who is studying nursing and working at a nursing home. Some of the people in the home do some revolting things, they are sick and can't help it. He handles it with loving-kindness. I take great joy in his accomplishment.
Buddhism has brought me a new appreciation for the Bible, but that doesn't change my mind about God.
I'm sorry if my bluntness seems rude, it's just that I try to condense my thought because I'm not a very fast typist.
Simplelayperson,
I haven't been around much recently but as a former born-again, agnostic/buddhist wannabe nurse, I 've appreciated reading your posts.
As for the animal sacrifice. In Jewish law, it was required that a lamb without blemish be sacrificed for the sins of the person offering the sacrifice. When they make that reference, it is also referring to the perfect (in their opinion) state that Jesus was in to offer the final sacrifice to God for the sins of mankind. I've only sung that hymn so many times and cried a few times on it that I remember so much. Haven't been to church in over a decade.
And by the way, thanks Rev. Genryu! I will think of that the next time I loosed my compassion and kindness to a little old confused person.
Thanks Jerbear,
I think I have worked thru this whole justify your atheism thing with the Buddha's help. All views are wromg views, but this one is a tuffy for me. I plan to post something more comprehensive in the next week or two for comment.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2006
Why should there be anything to justify? Why not just be? Your actions and words will do all the justification necessary.
Thanks Jerbear,
I think I have worked thru this whole justify your atheism thing with the Buddha's help. All views are wromg views, but this one is a tuffy for me. I plan to post something more comprehensive in the next week or two for comment.
Not all views are wrong views. A view based on seeing things as they are is not wrong view. Which is what the Buddha called Right View or Right Understanding in the Eightfold Path.
Atheism, and religion, lie at the root of my angst. I want to get rid of those wrong views. I had hoped to help myself, and maybe others by posting my thoughts on it. But if you object, no problem, I wont post it.
All views are wrong views. Period. Even Buddhism, remember the story about the raft?
It's quite possible to find discrepancys in the translations of the teachings. The Buddha said it would happen. Viewing something to be true maybe helpfull, but knowing something to be true is much better. I did not come to the Buddha for views, or opinion, or judgements, I came for the truth, the wisdom of understanding. As soon as I find some thing in Buddhism that comes down to a view I'm done with it.
Please look at my post #144 in the thread favorite quotes in the lotus lounge.
Sir, I respect your knowledge so much, and that is why I humbly request that you always expand on your thoughts a little more, or point me to a previous post that may be helpfull when addressing me on this web-site.
edited for spelling.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Atheism, and religion, lie at the root of my angst. I want to get rid of those wrong views. I had hoped to help myself, and maybe others by posting my thoughts on it. But if you object, no problem, I wont post it.
I have absolutely no objection whatsoever...neither do I have the right - or do I assume the right - to veto anything unless of course the content is disrespectful, undignified, plain rude, insulting or defamatory.... You have never, ever given me cause or reason to view anything you have ever contributed, in that light....
If I gave that impression, I apologise for the indistinct phraseology.
My intention was to illustrate that (as I too come from a "rich" Roman Catholic Religious upbringing) it is merely, fundamentally a question of addressing our attitude within, rather than seeking a justifiable cause for the angst, without. But to my mind, it is this very situation you are addressing....
Please continue....
How about this; all views through the unenlightened mind are incomplete but some are closer to the the truth than others. So, when we're talking about "Right View" or "Complete View" in the Noble Eightfold Path we're basically trying to get as close as possible to complete view, as close as our unenlightened minds can get.
When you say "As soon as I find some thing in Buddhism that comes down to a view I'm done with it.", Jake, I interpret that as a rejection of doctrine, with which I agree,
But don't forget that we're still straddling two worlds here. The only way I can describe it is the unenlightened and enlightened worlds or minds. We who are aware of the Dharma and are still unenlightened are nevertheless a little more awake than we were. But we still need guidelines, or views, to keep us pointed in the right direction even if, ultimately we have to remind ourselves that those views are still incomplete.
The point is to stay in the middle, straddling both understandings, neither completely accepting nor rejecting these views. It's a delicate balancing act.
The point is to stay in the middle, straddling both understandings, neither completely accepting nor rejecting these views. It's a delicate balancing act.
Brigid
Holy cr@p! This has made the most sense all day. I never come in this part of newbuddhist but this post hit it on the head for me today! Thanks Brigid!
I got my "Buddha Bible" back and here is what I wanted to share. It helped me.
From The Teaching of Buddha by B.D.K. Ch.1 Causation last paragraph;
If all has been decided by destiny, both good deeds and evil deeds are destiny, weal and woe are destiny, and nothing exists outside destiny, then all human plans and effort for improvement and progress would be without hope. The same is true of the other conceptions, for, if everything in the last resort is in the hands of God or of blind chance, what hope has humanity except in submission? It is no wonder that people holding these conceptions lose hope and relax their effort to act wisely and avoid evil. No, these three conceptions and viewpoints are all wrong:-everything is a succession of appearances whose source is the concurrence of causes and conditions, and these causes and conditions can, in a measure, be modified and controlled.
Your comments remind me of Plato's ideas about opinion/thought and wisdom/knowledge. He recognized that while opinion is a very shaky ground to stand on, unreliable and treacherous in comparison to knowledge, it is nonetheless possible to have "right opinion" (the greek word is "orthodoxy"). And that "right opinion" is just as useful as wisdom/knowledge. The simile is about travelling. If one had never been to a place but you had a map to follow, what you have is an "opinion" about how to get there, never having confirmed the map as correct before. Until you arrive at your destination, you are relying on "orthodoxy" as your guide, at which point the opinion is confirmed and becomes knowledge.
"Right view" is often defined by the Buddha as having discernment of the four noble truths. This means that as Buddhists most of us have let's say roughly 50% of Right View--because we really do not have clear discernment of Nibbana nor of the eightfold path in its fulness, though we are fairly keenly aware of suffering and that we create it. All you have to do to confirm this is start a thread on the meaning of Nibbana or on the eightfold path to see the many different opinions Buddhists hold. Having said that, we might even conclude that Right View should be the kind of insight that grasps the four noble truths entirely together instead of something that can be held only in some degree or another. Or we could say that "Right View" is "Orthodoxy" in the sense that Plato talked about.
I agree, orthodoxy as a guide or map is a good analogy. It really is like walking through a dream, isn't it? We need some kind of guide to keep with us as we go through but we will eventually have to put the guidebook down and leave it behind when we wake up. This is as subtle as I can go until I've had more practice. It's like trying to hold onto a puff of smoke.
I'll agree that some views may be helpfull, for the short term, but heres a question: Good bad, wright wrong, same different, coming going, enemy friend, being non-being, right view wrong view, wholesome unwholesome, who decides what is, you or the universe?
edit; please see my post # 152, favorite quotes, lotus lounge.
I read the quotation first then I read your post here, Jake. That was kind of fun the way that segued into itself. I was repeating the quotation as my browser was taking me here.
I'm thinking values and qualities don't exist at all. I think they're constructs built by humans in order to stay and survive in Samsara and continue the cycle of rebirth. There is no duality. Is that what the One Taste thing is about or am I completely off? I haven't actually read anything about the One Taste. Think I better.
Anyway, maybe getting out of the cycle is like deciding how long you're going to punish yourself over something and then letting it go. Maybe it's just the BIG letting go, of everything. If this life and everything in it is really all just illusion and we hold on to it because it's all we know and the only way to get out of the cycle is to jump into the abyss then maybe we have to build courage. Maybe the courage part is so important that it has to be based on actual experiential knowledge because we'd never jump into the abyss with just a leap of faith. We wouldn't have to courage to do it.
Oh, I don't know. I'm just babbling. Unskillful speech. This can't be right because enlightenment is an extinguishment not a leap. It's more gentle, isn't it? It just happens, we don't have to take a flying leap...LOL! Why does it always have to be about action with me? I'm looking at this from the wrong angle.
Dear Brigid,
I used to think Buddhism was a bitter pill. Lately though I've found some amusement in it. Its hard to put into words. Samsara is no laughing matter, but sometimes the workings of Karma, and peoples' grasping can be amusing. (including my own)
YES! I know what you mean, Jake. I laugh at myself a lot more now than I used to. And when I'm laughing at myself I know I'm in the right place and I'm doing the right thing.
Pema Chodron's words keep ringing in my head that we take everything far too seriously, that things aren't nearly as dire as we think they are. That rings loud bells in me and when I catch myself taking something too seriously I can often laugh at myself over it.
i like a lot of the idea and wisdom of buddhism but some of it is flawed and the whole fat man on a cloud thing, showing himself in different forms... well...
I do like magic monkey lol
each athethist doesnt see things the same way, me personally i try to see all from a whole view rather than my own, i try to make a balanced view by disgrading my own views and emotions and understanding what exactly it is im thinking of from all sides.
Recently my confidence has gone back up, as ive dropped christianity for sure, it just doesnt hold any wisdom or self improvement from what i've seen. I've met 1 christian who could make you believe until you actually read the bible and realised that star wars is more feasible. Coming to my own decisions about things is sooo much better
I understand that humanity has only come to this era and culture now because of all the people before it, every human is unable to be born into this world without being corrupted and influenced by the past idea's, views and foolishness of others. Religion has forged soo much of this.
What is a suicide bomber without religion? what is the crusades without religion? what are all the marches and rebellions all over the world without religion? nazism persecuation of jews 4 killing jesus.. wiping out the barbaric non christian believers ( american natives)
religion has caused more death and ignorance and i'd rather think for myself then follow old men priests who follow a book of fiction blindly.
I am a pacifist and im more individual and harmless than an average christian who swears that they won't kill .. when they do it everyday abroad in Iraq. most religious people are breaking their religion rules and its stupid.
I'd rather not use the term athetist as its a word, its like calling people by their names, thats not who they are, but a word used to individualise them. It sums up nothing of what they are emotionally or how they think or who they are inside.
Athestism is not a religion.. and people are bound to have different views of it..
You make very valid points, particularly our relationship with all that has gone before us. The loss of a sense of this arising from a reluctance to teach history may be contributory to some current ills.
Reading your post, I was struck by how similar its sentiments are to the things that we were saying about nationalism, back in the mists of the mid-20th century.
What is a suicide bomber without religion? what is the crusades without religion? what are all the marches and rebellions all over the world without religion? nazism persecuation of jews 4 killing jesus.. wiping out the barbaric non christian believers ( american natives)
It could be argued that it was not religion but nationalistic fanaticism that drove these atrocities. The current disgusting and shameful situation in Israel/Palestine is presented as being based on religion but appears to me more about national identity.
When my family members went to the gas chamber and crematoria of the Third Reich, it was because our 'blood' would taint the noble Teutonic race. It had nothing to do with a crucified Jew out of history.
That we are now praising national pride, emphasising 'Americanness' or 'Britishness' has too many echoes, for me, of the strains of Deutschland Uber Alles.
Your objections to all the flummery around Buddhism should not distract you from the core of the Dharma which has nothing to do with ceremony or, even, faith. As in other areas of life, there are all sorts of people who study and practice to follow this way of being. In home decoration and furnishing, some people want Louis XV or Henri IV and all that heavy, dark stuff. Others want tatami mats and undecorated walls. Neither is better than the other. Both provide shelter from the weather. And the lover of vast, Chesterfield sofas will live in discomfort when given a futon on the floor.
What a Buddhist practice allows us to do, among other benefits, is to discover these 'lines of least resistance' in ourselves, to see the place of this that I call 'me' in that which I call 'the world'.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I'd rather not use the term athetist as its a word, its like calling people by their names, thats not who they are, but a word used to individualise them. It sums up nothing of what they are emotionally or how they think or who they are inside.
Athestism is not a religion.. and people are bound to have different views of it..
I'm me and thats all i know
You hit the nail on the head here....
Any description or definition is just a word, bit it's not WHO the person IS...Just as these fanatics with semtex round their waists claim to do it for religion...that's just a label... a front.... a distorted and misguided raison d'être....Many Buddhists shy away from the term 'Buddhist' for that very reason...Not through shame or disassociation, but because all definitions are merely superfluous labels.... I am more prone to saying that of all paths, the one I follow is the Buddhist one...but even that is a definition....
Buddhism is not an atheist Philosophy, discipline or religion....
Buddhism talks of 'Gods' but we never have, nor ever will, consider 'the fat man on the cloud' as a God.... It is simple imagery of a Man, like you and 'me'... who had something worthwhile to say.....
But Buddhism is silent on the existence of a Supreme Deity or a Heaven... or a Life in the eternal Hereafter, as believed by Deistic faiths....It does not however, discount their existence.....
Buddhism, is about Knowing, not Believing....
Stick around.... we might pleasantly surprise you.....:)
yes i hate nations.. i get so much anti british stuff from the americans...
Britain is only where i live and have been raised, i don't value it for much except that i know it..
i'm not patriotic and i don't drink tea, i don't eat crumpets, i have an accent but thats normal, every human on earth has an accent
I'm not necessarily english, british.. as you would agree federica, its a name, a preconception , a stereotype and i am like every other human in this world to a degree
all these anti-americans and anti-british , anti-muslim, anti-jew ppl need to think a little more, all they are doing is persecuting people very similar to themselves for nonsense reasons.... i've come across about 3 americans insulting me this week. 1 said I have a faggot accent.. well i mean i'm not from london ( my accent is more refined than a lot of brummies in the area but im not the queen ) ( by the way i don't support the monarchy)
, there's nothign wrong with my accent, my voice is quite deep and i'm straight..
Its true that the germans hated the jews '4 being a pollutant. in their gene pool' they started off hating communist jews and then it seemed to move into 2 seperate groups..
but i would guess their religion did have something to do with it too, and there is still a lot of anti-jew ppl who hate them 4 killing christ. Kinda like northern ireland. and southern.. it does have stuff to do with indentity but their is some blurred disfigured form of religion in there too..
but i would guess their religion did have something to do with it too, and there is still a lot of anti-jew ppl who hate them 4 killing christ. Kinda like northern ireland. and southern.. it does have stuff to do with indentity but their is some blurred disfigured form of religion in there too..
It is my opinion that people who think like this only use religion as an excuse to hate. If a particular religion doesn't provide this capability for their desire - they will find some other avenue to support it - be it Nationalism or whatever.
Comments
I'm a new member and I thought this would be a good thread to use to expose myself a little.
I always tryed to be a warm and fuzzy Atheist. I figured there is enough puke in the world why make it worse? Human beans is all we have. Be nice maybe one will save your life some day. We all came from the same stuff. We'll all go back. (sound familiar? I thought I came up with these ideas) Anyway I've always rejected the supernatural. Even in fourth grade I was afraid the teacher would wig out on me for not saying "under God". Over the years I had come to be very anti-religion. These interesting times we live in didn't help my attitude.
Then I saw His Holiness the Dalai Lama on LinkTV. I kept agreeing with him on everything he said. He is a great man! So thanks to His Holiness I've been studying Buddha's teachings for six months or so. His Holiness always points out that all religions are important, and can help people. That religions are not that different anyway. This helps me relate to alot of people I sort of wrote off. Some people may not approve of my ideas but I can balance that with tolerance. I can still try to help with their suffering.
It's good to have some Sangha, thanks
I agree with you about HH the Dalai Lama. A great man for sure. I'm reading one of his books at the moment.
Make yourself at home. It's nice to see you.
Brigid
Which one Brigid? I have just finished Ancient Wisdom, Modern World" which is a brilliant introduction to anyone who doesn't want to have to wade through the sutras and just get the basic ideas - I've already sent a copy to a stressed out friend in the UK. :ukflag:
You may enjoy HHDL's autobiographies, particularly if you read them in the order he wrote them. They really give you insight into how he, as a "simple Buddhist monk", has grown and developed his views. His curiosity about and genuine interest in the people he meets remains the strongest memory that I have of him. He managed to recognise an American whom he had met, once, five years earlier and who was simply presenting him (that day) with a white scarf (khatag) at a public audience! Amazing.
NirvanaNoob
I have my arguments but it always comes down to because God said. They believe, I do not. Its like two crazy people arguing with each other, pointless.
I guess I'm exploring Buddhism because Atheism doesn't explain spirituality well enough for me.
PS Im going to look for a thread on books by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I have four already. I'm studying his book The Four Noble Truths right now.
Knitwitch,
I'm reading "An Open Heart: Practicing Compassion in Everyday Life" and "Practicing Wisdom: The Perfection of Shantideva's Bodhisattva Way". They're 2001 and 2005 respectively. I really like him. There's just something about the way he puts things together that makes sense to me. Have I said I really like him? lol! I love the man soooo much. I just want to hug him. I always forget that he's quite the scholar. It also seems like he's an amazing teacher because unlike many great scholars, (like some of my professors), he can explain complex things in a very simple way. It still takes me eons to read the book, like all Buddhism books, but I love pondering over a book. It's my greatest joy.
If you want, and if you like the book you're reading now (which, incidentally, is one of the few available on Amazon that I didn't buy, :sadc: ) we could start a thread in a few months to talk about his books. We'll play it by ear.
Love,
Brigid
And that's why I sent a 2nd hand copy to my friend in UK - poor love is stuck in the commuter hamster wheel and needs something to bring him back to the moment easily and quickly without having to pause, reflect and cogitate. Something that will grab his attention now and he can turn over in his mind while stuck in a traffic jam.
"And verily it shall be found that if ye is reading a book, however mindfully, and ye do rear-end the veritable Knight stuck in the traffic jam infront of you, and thereby do shunt his horse's ass, then ye will incur the harshest penalty of the law, as well as losing three points on your horse licence and paying excessive premiums on your equine insurance.
Verily.
So there."
When a great nation such as China can't come to terms with one such as the HHDL, It is proof enough for me of samsara.(suffering). Its sick.
and so my conversion to Buddhism continues.
I humbly submit that for me the Buddhist view on this universal truth is more profound because it based more on logic and reason.
My Mom went and bought the DVD Life of Buddha a film by Martin Meissonnier. Its very nice, alot of filming in India and Tibet, and a few fundamental notions by the Venerable Thich Nhat Hahn in the "extras".
In one part they talk about the Prince Sidhartha seeing animal sacrifice and how that too encouraged him to seek enlightenment. (they had real images yuck!) This got me thinking about the last time I went to church which was quite a few years ago. I knew there was no chance of conversion, but I had decided to go to be with my wife and other family members and get reminded of kindness etc. But when they got to the part where the Pastor, choir, and congregation sang a hymn asking if I was washed in the blood of the lamb,(yikes!) I decided this just wasn't for me.
Please know I mean no disrespect to anyone or any religion. The point I guess is that Atheists at least don't have to reconcile animal sacrifice as part of their (lack of) religion.
Animal sacrifice! UGH!
Brigid
Perhaps(I don't know) the hymn is a parable about being washed by the blood of christ, in other words being accepted into the congregation etc. Jesus, was also known as the Lamb of God-meaning he was sacrificed so that we may live eternally.
Just a thought, I may be completey wrong-I'm no expert.
Xray
jesus shed his blood for our sins, that we might be saved... so we would be washed in the blood of the lamb, in order to attain salvation....
The more I type, the more I cringe....
Good grief....!! :hrm: :eek2: :thumbsup:
Dear Xrayman, and Federica,
I'm not a Bible scholar, but I seem to remember people in the Old Testament did practice animal sacrifice, and I think lamb was a favorite. A Christian friend told me all that came to an end with Jesus. (go Jesus!) Remember you're dealing with a life-long Atheist/Buddhist wannabe here, the symbolism of "Are You Washed in the Blood of the Lamb" comes out all wrong for me.
In contrast, I recently heard a talented Preacher tell the story of Jesus healing the leper. It was profound, it nearly brought me to tears.(oh OK it did, but not like a baby) It reminded me of reading about aversion being a "wrong view" in Buddhism. It reminded me of my son who is studying nursing and working at a nursing home. Some of the people in the home do some revolting things, they are sick and can't help it. He handles it with loving-kindness. I take great joy in his accomplishment.
Buddhism has brought me a new appreciation for the Bible, but that doesn't change my mind about God.
I'm sorry if my bluntness seems rude, it's just that I try to condense my thought because I'm not a very fast typist.
- The Buddha
I haven't been around much recently but as a former born-again, agnostic/buddhist wannabe nurse, I 've appreciated reading your posts.
As for the animal sacrifice. In Jewish law, it was required that a lamb without blemish be sacrificed for the sins of the person offering the sacrifice. When they make that reference, it is also referring to the perfect (in their opinion) state that Jesus was in to offer the final sacrifice to God for the sins of mankind. I've only sung that hymn so many times and cried a few times on it that I remember so much. Haven't been to church in over a decade.
And by the way, thanks Rev. Genryu! I will think of that the next time I loosed my compassion and kindness to a little old confused person.
I think I have worked thru this whole justify your atheism thing with the Buddha's help. All views are wromg views, but this one is a tuffy for me. I plan to post something more comprehensive in the next week or two for comment.
Not all views are wrong views. A view based on seeing things as they are is not wrong view. Which is what the Buddha called Right View or Right Understanding in the Eightfold Path.
Atheism, and religion, lie at the root of my angst. I want to get rid of those wrong views. I had hoped to help myself, and maybe others by posting my thoughts on it. But if you object, no problem, I wont post it.
All views are wrong views. Period. Even Buddhism, remember the story about the raft?
It's quite possible to find discrepancys in the translations of the teachings. The Buddha said it would happen. Viewing something to be true maybe helpfull, but knowing something to be true is much better. I did not come to the Buddha for views, or opinion, or judgements, I came for the truth, the wisdom of understanding. As soon as I find some thing in Buddhism that comes down to a view I'm done with it.
Please look at my post #144 in the thread favorite quotes in the lotus lounge.
Sir, I respect your knowledge so much, and that is why I humbly request that you always expand on your thoughts a little more, or point me to a previous post that may be helpfull when addressing me on this web-site.
edited for spelling.
If I gave that impression, I apologise for the indistinct phraseology.
My intention was to illustrate that (as I too come from a "rich" Roman Catholic Religious upbringing) it is merely, fundamentally a question of addressing our attitude within, rather than seeking a justifiable cause for the angst, without. But to my mind, it is this very situation you are addressing....
Please continue....
How about this; all views through the unenlightened mind are incomplete but some are closer to the the truth than others. So, when we're talking about "Right View" or "Complete View" in the Noble Eightfold Path we're basically trying to get as close as possible to complete view, as close as our unenlightened minds can get.
When you say "As soon as I find some thing in Buddhism that comes down to a view I'm done with it.", Jake, I interpret that as a rejection of doctrine, with which I agree,
But don't forget that we're still straddling two worlds here. The only way I can describe it is the unenlightened and enlightened worlds or minds. We who are aware of the Dharma and are still unenlightened are nevertheless a little more awake than we were. But we still need guidelines, or views, to keep us pointed in the right direction even if, ultimately we have to remind ourselves that those views are still incomplete.
The point is to stay in the middle, straddling both understandings, neither completely accepting nor rejecting these views. It's a delicate balancing act.
Brigid
Holy cr@p! This has made the most sense all day. I never come in this part of newbuddhist but this post hit it on the head for me today! Thanks Brigid!
I got my "Buddha Bible" back and here is what I wanted to share. It helped me.
From The Teaching of Buddha by B.D.K. Ch.1 Causation last paragraph;
If all has been decided by destiny, both good deeds and evil deeds are destiny, weal and woe are destiny, and nothing exists outside destiny, then all human plans and effort for improvement and progress would be without hope. The same is true of the other conceptions, for, if everything in the last resort is in the hands of God or of blind chance, what hope has humanity except in submission? It is no wonder that people holding these conceptions lose hope and relax their effort to act wisely and avoid evil. No, these three conceptions and viewpoints are all wrong:-everything is a succession of appearances whose source is the concurrence of causes and conditions, and these causes and conditions can, in a measure, be modified and controlled.
Your comments remind me of Plato's ideas about opinion/thought and wisdom/knowledge. He recognized that while opinion is a very shaky ground to stand on, unreliable and treacherous in comparison to knowledge, it is nonetheless possible to have "right opinion" (the greek word is "orthodoxy"). And that "right opinion" is just as useful as wisdom/knowledge. The simile is about travelling. If one had never been to a place but you had a map to follow, what you have is an "opinion" about how to get there, never having confirmed the map as correct before. Until you arrive at your destination, you are relying on "orthodoxy" as your guide, at which point the opinion is confirmed and becomes knowledge.
"Right view" is often defined by the Buddha as having discernment of the four noble truths. This means that as Buddhists most of us have let's say roughly 50% of Right View--because we really do not have clear discernment of Nibbana nor of the eightfold path in its fulness, though we are fairly keenly aware of suffering and that we create it. All you have to do to confirm this is start a thread on the meaning of Nibbana or on the eightfold path to see the many different opinions Buddhists hold. Having said that, we might even conclude that Right View should be the kind of insight that grasps the four noble truths entirely together instead of something that can be held only in some degree or another. Or we could say that "Right View" is "Orthodoxy" in the sense that Plato talked about.
in friendliness,
V.
I agree, orthodoxy as a guide or map is a good analogy. It really is like walking through a dream, isn't it? We need some kind of guide to keep with us as we go through but we will eventually have to put the guidebook down and leave it behind when we wake up. This is as subtle as I can go until I've had more practice. It's like trying to hold onto a puff of smoke.
Brigid
I'll agree that some views may be helpfull, for the short term, but heres a question: Good bad, wright wrong, same different, coming going, enemy friend, being non-being, right view wrong view, wholesome unwholesome, who decides what is, you or the universe?
edit; please see my post # 152, favorite quotes, lotus lounge.
I'm thinking values and qualities don't exist at all. I think they're constructs built by humans in order to stay and survive in Samsara and continue the cycle of rebirth. There is no duality. Is that what the One Taste thing is about or am I completely off? I haven't actually read anything about the One Taste. Think I better.
Anyway, maybe getting out of the cycle is like deciding how long you're going to punish yourself over something and then letting it go. Maybe it's just the BIG letting go, of everything. If this life and everything in it is really all just illusion and we hold on to it because it's all we know and the only way to get out of the cycle is to jump into the abyss then maybe we have to build courage. Maybe the courage part is so important that it has to be based on actual experiential knowledge because we'd never jump into the abyss with just a leap of faith. We wouldn't have to courage to do it.
Oh, I don't know. I'm just babbling. Unskillful speech. This can't be right because enlightenment is an extinguishment not a leap. It's more gentle, isn't it? It just happens, we don't have to take a flying leap...LOL! Why does it always have to be about action with me? I'm looking at this from the wrong angle.
Brigid
I used to think Buddhism was a bitter pill. Lately though I've found some amusement in it. Its hard to put into words. Samsara is no laughing matter, but sometimes the workings of Karma, and peoples' grasping can be amusing. (including my own)
Pema Chodron's words keep ringing in my head that we take everything far too seriously, that things aren't nearly as dire as we think they are. That rings loud bells in me and when I catch myself taking something too seriously I can often laugh at myself over it.
Brigid
cheers.
Brigid
I do like magic monkey lol
each athethist doesnt see things the same way, me personally i try to see all from a whole view rather than my own, i try to make a balanced view by disgrading my own views and emotions and understanding what exactly it is im thinking of from all sides.
Recently my confidence has gone back up, as ive dropped christianity for sure, it just doesnt hold any wisdom or self improvement from what i've seen. I've met 1 christian who could make you believe until you actually read the bible and realised that star wars is more feasible. Coming to my own decisions about things is sooo much better
I understand that humanity has only come to this era and culture now because of all the people before it, every human is unable to be born into this world without being corrupted and influenced by the past idea's, views and foolishness of others. Religion has forged soo much of this.
What is a suicide bomber without religion? what is the crusades without religion? what are all the marches and rebellions all over the world without religion? nazism persecuation of jews 4 killing jesus.. wiping out the barbaric non christian believers ( american natives)
religion has caused more death and ignorance and i'd rather think for myself then follow old men priests who follow a book of fiction blindly.
I am a pacifist and im more individual and harmless than an average christian who swears that they won't kill .. when they do it everyday abroad in Iraq. most religious people are breaking their religion rules and its stupid.
I'd rather not use the term athetist as its a word, its like calling people by their names, thats not who they are, but a word used to individualise them. It sums up nothing of what they are emotionally or how they think or who they are inside.
Athestism is not a religion.. and people are bound to have different views of it..
I'm me and thats all i know
You make very valid points, particularly our relationship with all that has gone before us. The loss of a sense of this arising from a reluctance to teach history may be contributory to some current ills.
Reading your post, I was struck by how similar its sentiments are to the things that we were saying about nationalism, back in the mists of the mid-20th century.
It could be argued that it was not religion but nationalistic fanaticism that drove these atrocities. The current disgusting and shameful situation in Israel/Palestine is presented as being based on religion but appears to me more about national identity.
When my family members went to the gas chamber and crematoria of the Third Reich, it was because our 'blood' would taint the noble Teutonic race. It had nothing to do with a crucified Jew out of history.
That we are now praising national pride, emphasising 'Americanness' or 'Britishness' has too many echoes, for me, of the strains of Deutschland Uber Alles.
Your objections to all the flummery around Buddhism should not distract you from the core of the Dharma which has nothing to do with ceremony or, even, faith. As in other areas of life, there are all sorts of people who study and practice to follow this way of being. In home decoration and furnishing, some people want Louis XV or Henri IV and all that heavy, dark stuff. Others want tatami mats and undecorated walls. Neither is better than the other. Both provide shelter from the weather. And the lover of vast, Chesterfield sofas will live in discomfort when given a futon on the floor.
What a Buddhist practice allows us to do, among other benefits, is to discover these 'lines of least resistance' in ourselves, to see the place of this that I call 'me' in that which I call 'the world'.
You hit the nail on the head here....
Any description or definition is just a word, bit it's not WHO the person IS...Just as these fanatics with semtex round their waists claim to do it for religion...that's just a label... a front.... a distorted and misguided raison d'être....Many Buddhists shy away from the term 'Buddhist' for that very reason...Not through shame or disassociation, but because all definitions are merely superfluous labels.... I am more prone to saying that of all paths, the one I follow is the Buddhist one...but even that is a definition....
Buddhism is not an atheist Philosophy, discipline or religion....
Buddhism talks of 'Gods' but we never have, nor ever will, consider 'the fat man on the cloud' as a God.... It is simple imagery of a Man, like you and 'me'... who had something worthwhile to say.....
But Buddhism is silent on the existence of a Supreme Deity or a Heaven... or a Life in the eternal Hereafter, as believed by Deistic faiths....It does not however, discount their existence.....
Buddhism, is about Knowing, not Believing....
Stick around.... we might pleasantly surprise you.....:)
Thank you for your post - and welcome.
Britain is only where i live and have been raised, i don't value it for much except that i know it..
i'm not patriotic and i don't drink tea, i don't eat crumpets, i have an accent but thats normal, every human on earth has an accent
I'm not necessarily english, british.. as you would agree federica, its a name, a preconception , a stereotype and i am like every other human in this world to a degree
all these anti-americans and anti-british , anti-muslim, anti-jew ppl need to think a little more, all they are doing is persecuting people very similar to themselves for nonsense reasons.... i've come across about 3 americans insulting me this week. 1 said I have a faggot accent.. well i mean i'm not from london ( my accent is more refined than a lot of brummies in the area but im not the queen ) ( by the way i don't support the monarchy)
, there's nothign wrong with my accent, my voice is quite deep and i'm straight..
Its true that the germans hated the jews '4 being a pollutant. in their gene pool' they started off hating communist jews and then it seemed to move into 2 seperate groups..
but i would guess their religion did have something to do with it too, and there is still a lot of anti-jew ppl who hate them 4 killing christ. Kinda like northern ireland. and southern.. it does have stuff to do with indentity but their is some blurred disfigured form of religion in there too..
It is my opinion that people who think like this only use religion as an excuse to hate. If a particular religion doesn't provide this capability for their desire - they will find some other avenue to support it - be it Nationalism or whatever.
-bf
Deep stuff.
I just want to add; my conviction in atheism aids my conviction in the teachings.