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Should I resume with old sangha, or find a new one?
After a year or so away from my old sangha, I feel the pull to return to some sort of active meditation practice. However there are several reasons why I don't want to return to my old sangha. I find that I don't really connect with the lama at my old center, though he is eminently qualified and I can find no flaws in his character (except perhaps distance.) My odd work schedule also conflicts with meeting times. Since I'm rather undisciplined, I'd like to join some group meditation for a structured schedule, but my old center doesn't offer that. I also have some issues with Tibetan Buddhism in general (esoteric practices, stance on sexuality and guru devotion.)
Now for the wrinkle. There are only two dharma centers in my city, my old one and a Shambhala meditation center. Not to offend anyone, but I don't trust the teachings of Chogyam Trungpa due to his, let's say, colorful lifestyle. There is another city, about 200 miles away with a plethora of monastaries and centers, but 400 miles of traveling for two hours of meditation seems burdensome. Should I try to "tough it out" with my old sangha, or make a pilgrimage to a far away city?
Now for the wrinkle. There are only two dharma centers in my city, my old one and a Shambhala meditation center. Not to offend anyone, but I don't trust the teachings of Chogyam Trungpa due to his, let's say, colorful lifestyle. There is another city, about 200 miles away with a plethora of monastaries and centers, but 400 miles of traveling for two hours of meditation seems burdensome. Should I try to "tough it out" with my old sangha, or make a pilgrimage to a far away city?
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Wish you every success in the pursuit of well beings for all.
Not so.
The Kalama sutta instructs and recommends we do otherwise.
If you think a new student should go along with the teachings of a master simply because he seems to have a good reputation, then you are not in line with the Buddha's teachings.......
Luckily for me just as I was about to give up the hope of finding an alternate Sangha for me, I found a group 5! of sangha's that follow the teachings of The Venerable Thich Nhat Hanh and while light on rituals (great for me) they are very sincere, genuine and Always have a discussion on the Dharma, Thay's writings and teachings of the Buddha.
So don't give up hope try googling under various terms. I had found next to nothing under Buddha, Buddhism etc, and then it dawned on me to look for Shangha Rhode Island and voila I found exactly what I was looking for.
So I think that with a bit of persistence and dedication you too will find the road again and continue on your journey with like minded people in your area.
I wish you the best of luck and please post back with any updates of your search.
Peace,
Ivan
"Go along" is interpreted as following the master instead of dharma path. There were cases where Master who has not attained great insights but his student enlightened. This is becos the student follow the path of dharma with a sincere heart in accordance with his master dharma lecture. Generally, a new student will attend those renown Buddhism institution, and there are many seniors with good insight in there as well.
Thus, the below clearly shows the relative mind of student whose level of sincerity is not very high. the intention is not pin-pointing anyone in particular, but an opinion to avoid rumours from student themselves who may lack of wisdom, and may cause problem to the students etc in that Sangha community. Most importantly the interest of student, who in pursuit for the well beings of all. Besides, there are always people jealous over good reputation master. History has revealed that students and other people would compare good reputation masters etc from their point of view. Even in secular context, good reputation will also invite rumours, needless to mention, path towards enlightenment. In dharma ending age, there are many, and the only way is the sangha community themselves - lay buddhist and venerables. So when people visited monastry to plant the seed of blessings of the future, the fruit is much more immeasurable.
How would one know without detailed and deep examination and scrutiny? never take anything at face value simply because it seems good, or even if others have said so.
Who are you to judge whether somebody is sincere or not? I find someone who is at pains to question and examine, much more "sincere" than somebody who is prepared to follow a master simply because he seems good....Sincere is dedicated., One who follows blindly, is not dedicated. He is assinine.
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here.....
Jeaslousy has nothing to do with it.
I fail to see what point you're making at all.
Its sounds to me like a long winded "Don't speak discursively."
As to 'follow the master because we cannot judge' that does not work our culture. We expect people to be accountable and to behave in a way that is consistent with their position. 'Crazy wisdom', in my opinion, justifies a lot of questionable behaviour and does not appeal to me at all.
I'm not sure what you're referring to when you're commenting about rumors. Are you speaking of my old lama, or my comment about Chogyam Trungpa? If you are talking about my old lama, I've been careful not to mention my locality so he can not be identified. If you are speaking of Chogyam Trungpa, the controversies surrounding him are well known:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chogyam_Trungpa#Controversies
Thanks so much, Ivan. I would love to find a group that followed Thich Nhat Hanh's teaching. There was such a sangha here but they were absorbed by ... the Shambhala center.
Folks, please don't get me wrong. I respect my old lama, both for giving me a proper introduction to Buddhism, giving my me Refuge Vows and Five Precepts and trying to bring the Dharma to my poor benighted city. His teachings are erudite and wise, but they just don't inspire me. I also feel unable to explore non-orthodox ideas in the sangha. So I feel compelled to look elsewhere.
Never follow a teacher just because somebody says he/she has a good reputation or because others are following with blind devotion. Be extremely cautious if others in a group say you must never criticise teachers.
Be especially wary of fundamentalist attitudes in a group and don't get brain washed with nonsense...use your reasoning and common sense.
Always investigate very carefully.:)
Kind wishes,
Dazzle
.
it seems you already know the basic meditation methods
what you need is time and place to meditate
for it you can use your bed before sleep at night or day time whenever you have time and you feel like it
do not find fault with others
if you find fault with others, believe me, it is your own fault because there are non in this world without fault (can live up to our own satisfaction)
specially remember the sangha (whoever you reffering to) have helped you in many ways even though you do not know or do not see it like that now
you can do your meditation and ask questions from sangha-in-buddhist forums
i got very valuable instructions, guidance through internet forums
i said this because bswa forum (unfortunately no more) helped me a lot to continue my spiritual journey when i had not sanghas to get advice (www.bswa.org)
and
this newbuddhist forum also a good place to visit and get help
remember from the day we born we had teachers like our own parents, school teachers, friends, members of the society, preists, sangha
each and everyone we meet teach us a lesson but we don't know it so we don't appreciate it
happy spiritual journey!!!
you don't seem to have any major concern about your lama.
The fact that you wish to "connect" with him may be simply a need to feel taken care of that might vanish with your practice.
i wouldn't trust Chogyam Trungpa either, smoking tobacco and drinking alcohol seem selfish for someone in his position.
Thanks for this. It cuts right to the heart of the matter. I want to be valued and appreciated. I want to praised. I know this to be wrong-headed and deluded, the product of an unhealthy attachment to self. Still, is it too much to ask for a little encouragement?
Obviously this is a personal issue, not the fault of my old lama. On the other hand, I think a little encouragement would really help me down the path, as would some structured meditation time.
EDIT: Perhaps my old lama sees this need, and is withholding any sort of praise in an effort to help me see/fix this problem. Far-fetched? Or maybe, horror of horrors, I haven't really done or said anything praiseworthy.
As for finding fault, I don't think that is what I am trying to do. I am trying (and perhaps going about in an unskillful way) to apply the Kalama Sutra to find a path, a sangha and a teacher.
My fiancée and I have decided to meditate together very early in the morning. Hopefully this will provide the structured schedule I've been looking for.
As for the rest, I've cleared up some misconceptions here, as well as getting a little encouragement. Can an online forum substitute for a offline sangha?
I think either sangha could supplement your solo practice. Just because you attend a service at a particular center doesn't mean you have to agree with the entire philosophy of a teacher or his/her lifestyle choices.
It would be really hard to find the "perfect" teacher: one who has perfect qualifications, demeanor, and character.
However, a teacher could be perfect in the sense that he/she is an example of a person who is really trying to practice the Dharma, despite being human and having human faults.
Also, truth is truth regardless of who speaks it. It doesn't really matter if the speaker is awkward, unsocial, or flamboyant.
Hope you find a place the works for you.
For me, the Sangha becomes either friends from online or a feeling when I begin my meditation that I am surrounded by others.
It is a lonely path, certainly, but mine. Perhaps I can find a "virtual" Sangha online!
For instance I have been in constant conversations with my niece in Ireland and my best friend who I just reunited with after 21 years the last few days and and it has been as exciting and as deep as if we were sitting around the same table talking face to face.
Look at the discussions here. In fact sometimes having the distance\time when doing things virtually there is less of an issue of speaking over each other, or speaking without thinking. By the time we write our thoughts have a way of getting clearer.
Ironically as good as things are, I find that lately me and my wife seem to communicate better over e-mails throughout the day than face to face when we meet at the end of the day. But that's a whole other story.
So a Sangha is a Sangha... in the end it's a way (regardless of distance) for people to share the practices, and ideas behind the teachings of The Buddha.
Ivan
then you would know if you could benefit from more physical attendance.
Another very important component of a Sangha and one that you cannot have on-line but certainly do on your on is to have the proper location\environment to meditate.
So from a cave to a dedicated room, you can certainly have an environment where you can be at peace and it can be as simple or as "busy" as you'd want.
So if your only alternative is a network of friends like here, then I would make sure I can setup a proper meditation\reading\reflection room where I can do my actual practice.
Many people don't "bother" with that because they just go to their local sangha for me. I go twice a week, but have a very nice room which serves as my personal bedroom (yes my wife and I decided it's great to have our own space), my music\practice room and the main wall\focal point is my shrine\altar\meditation space.
Ive decorated the room so that pretty much every item in there has a personal meaning for me including picture of 4 loved ones that have passed away who serve as an inspiration to follow my path. I reflect on this whenever I exit my private space.
As for whether a virtual sangha can replace an offline sangha my feeling is that although it isn't ideal it is the best that some of us can find. I really appreciate the discussion and support that I've found online.
I also think that often we can be distracted from actual practice by looking for the right book, forum, teacher, sangha, place, lifestyle......
The neat thing about this forum is that there are Buddhists of every stripe here and it's far less inhibiting. Plus I have the anonymity of the Internet protecting me.
I'm not sure where this conditioning comes from, except perhaps as a relic of my Christian days. I would hide my doubts from my co-religionists for fear of being judged or ridiculed, after being smacked down a few times.
As regards to the Shambhala movement, I was simply trying to apply an important principle that I have inferred from the Kalama Sutra: judge a doctrine or belief system by the results it produces. In Chogyam Trungpa's case, I found the results unappealing. I did not intend to be divisive; however, I may well have come across as condescending. For that, I apologize. Perhaps I should have had private discussons about this issue, but I am new to this forum and don't really know anyone here.
On a more positive note, I found a Zen group only about 60 miles away. I would have preferred Theravada, but I have been curious about Zen for some time. Given that they are Zen, it somes quite likely that they practice zazen on a regular basis. I have sent an inquiry requesting more information.
all are the same only if try to walk a bit instead of travalling by vehicles
i mean
if you walk instead try to find cars, vans, etc.
because
at the end of the day
all are
earth, fire, water and air
do not you think so?
One of my other concerns was with the secrecy inherent in the Vajrayana path. To resolve this issue, I will simply stick with the Mahayana path and not request any Vajrayana teachings or rituals.
I still have a few niggling concerns, such as some of the apparently magical aspects of Tibetan Buddhism. But as someone else has stated in another thread, what matters is that the Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path are central to the path.
Another reason that I've never forged any sort of connection to our lama may be that I've not requested any individual teachings from him. Am I understanding properly that this is a tradition in Tibetan Buddhism, or Buddhism in general?
That sounds like Federica
Hi,
There's no need to stick to Vajrayana, there's alot to go to besides that. You might be meant for something else. With that being said, Choga Trupa Rinpoche might not have being the ideal lama for alot of people. But he did returned his robes and he's more like a lay person. But he did start alot of people into Buddhism in USA..so it's a good or bad thing depending on how u look at it.
Dear friend.
I would stick to the old, You say he doesnt inspire you well appearances
are only indactive of the mind viewing them, There have often been times Ive seen some teachings that could put the dead to sleep but if we are serious about training the mind then it is important to work out why your mind reacts in this way and change it so it works in a positive way for you, Remember its not people and circumstances that are difficult its the mind apprehending them.
As for others in this thread they may hold some views regarding certain teachers but let those who are without sin cast the first stone for all others perceived faults Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche introduced many people to Buddha dharma, Appearances are deceptive and our own minds cant see what is what for it is a sever downfall to critise or scorn holy beings and it is not something we should engage in, Buddhas appear in many forms both ordinary and extraordinary but you dont know who is who.
I am happy that you were able to reconnect with your origanal Sanga. One of the very benifitial things about Buddisim is that none of the 3 paths is considered to be "better" than the others. It is a matter of personal preferance as to which one you choose to follow.
The Lama's at my Monestary have been clear that one does not have to beleive in everything about the Buddist Teachings all at once. You can still be able to get great benifit while still exploreing and being unsure about some aspects.
I had a chance to just sit and have a private meeting with my Lama that went a long way toward developing our connection. I had written out some questions beforehand and he was willing to adress each of them in a very decent and patent way.
I would just ask to set up a meeting and then be open and honest regarding where you are and go from there.
I wouldn't agree with posters who say you cannot discern if someone is appropriate or question a lama or teacher. There are charlatans out in the world calling themselves "Buddhist" but actually out for their own ends, and there are groups calling themselves "Buddhist" who can be pretty damaging to their devotees. I have a friend who was once caught up in such a group and still suffers psychologically, although she is recovering thanks to the gentle teachings she is now receiving.
Common sense is required. However, it doesn't sound like you any such concerns about your lama, you just need to get to know him a little better. Take your time, ask for an audience with him and you may find that his apparent reserve is just him giving you space.