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Buddhism and the Many world Many Minds Theory
zidangus
Veteran
I'm back again to talk about how Buddhism can relate to current scientific theories of our universe. Im sorry if most of my posts have this theme but I am a nuclear physicist and a Buddhist, so I like to think how physics and Buddhist philosophy can relate to each other.
Anyway an interesting theory that I remember reading as an undergraduate is the many world theory, which suggests basically that, for each possible outcome to an action, the world splits into a copy of itself. This is an instantaneous process Everett called decohesion. It's kind of like a choose-your-own-adventure book, but rather than choosing between either exploring the cave or making off with the treasure, the universe splits in two so that each action is taken.One vital aspect of the Many-Worlds theory is that when the universe splits, the person is unaware of himself in the other version of the universe. This means that the boy who made off with the treasure and ends up living happily ever after is completely unaware of the version of himself who entered the cave and now faces great peril, and vice versa. There is a famous thought experiment called quantum suicide. When the man pulls the trigger, there are two possible outcomes: the gun either fires or it doesn't. In this case, the man either lives or he dies. Each time the trigger is pulled, the universe splits to accommodate each possible outcome. When the man dies, the universe is no longer able to split based on the pulling of the trigger. The possible outcome for death is reduced to one: continued death. But with life there are still two chances that remain: The man continues living or the man dies.
<table align="right" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>
</td></tr></tbody></table> *When the man pulls the trigger and the universe is split in two, however, the version of the man who lived will be unaware that in the other version of the split universe, he has died. Instead he will continue to live and will again have the chance to pull the trigger. And each time he does pull the trigger, the universe will again split, with the version of the man who lives continuing on, and being unaware of all of his deaths in parallel universes. In this sense, he will be able to exist indefinitely. This is called quantum immortality.
This theory has also been extended to include the many minds theory which
proposes that the distinction between worlds is made at the level of the mind of an individual observer.
So I am just wondering if these theories can be thought of as plausible from a Buddhist point of view.
Again no real answer can be given so your points of view would be appreciated.
metta to you all
Anyway an interesting theory that I remember reading as an undergraduate is the many world theory, which suggests basically that, for each possible outcome to an action, the world splits into a copy of itself. This is an instantaneous process Everett called decohesion. It's kind of like a choose-your-own-adventure book, but rather than choosing between either exploring the cave or making off with the treasure, the universe splits in two so that each action is taken.One vital aspect of the Many-Worlds theory is that when the universe splits, the person is unaware of himself in the other version of the universe. This means that the boy who made off with the treasure and ends up living happily ever after is completely unaware of the version of himself who entered the cave and now faces great peril, and vice versa. There is a famous thought experiment called quantum suicide. When the man pulls the trigger, there are two possible outcomes: the gun either fires or it doesn't. In this case, the man either lives or he dies. Each time the trigger is pulled, the universe splits to accommodate each possible outcome. When the man dies, the universe is no longer able to split based on the pulling of the trigger. The possible outcome for death is reduced to one: continued death. But with life there are still two chances that remain: The man continues living or the man dies.
<table align="right" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>
</td></tr></tbody></table> *When the man pulls the trigger and the universe is split in two, however, the version of the man who lived will be unaware that in the other version of the split universe, he has died. Instead he will continue to live and will again have the chance to pull the trigger. And each time he does pull the trigger, the universe will again split, with the version of the man who lives continuing on, and being unaware of all of his deaths in parallel universes. In this sense, he will be able to exist indefinitely. This is called quantum immortality.
This theory has also been extended to include the many minds theory which
proposes that the distinction between worlds is made at the level of the mind of an individual observer.
So I am just wondering if these theories can be thought of as plausible from a Buddhist point of view.
Again no real answer can be given so your points of view would be appreciated.
metta to you all
0
Comments
If no real answer can be given I think we should take the Buddha's lead and remain silent.
Others will of course, engage you in discussion, but again the point, aim and conclusion will be futile and will simply take up so much room on the forum.
Others will protest, and justify that discussions such as these help to broaden the mind and deepen understanding.
but they won't be able to say why, or how.....
But know the Buddha called this a great waste of time, better spent in other areas of practice.......
So really, if you see a deep and meaningful point in discussing something where no real answer can be given - knock yourself out.
I should also say that every scientific theory has no real answer to it, it is just a theory which always will have the possibility to be proved or disproved. However this does not stop me or I am sure any other person from thinking or having a point of view about it. As a Buddhist I have a view on the theory of evolution and also a view on big bang theory, these two theories are well accepted theories but as I mentioned earlier they are only theories which can be disproved. Yet in todays world most lay Buddhists and indeed monks must have had a view on these theories. Is it not good to ask questions even if you come to the conclusion that there is no satisfactory answer, you can only come to that conclusion by asking it to yourself. I know this is what led me to Buddhism, my ability to ask questions concerning myself, the world I live in and comparing them to the teachings of the Dharma and then coming to a conclusion if I thought the Dharma made sense, and it did make sense which is why I became a Buddhist.
Anyway thanks for reading the post
peace and happiness to you all.
In this case, there isn't any evidence of this kind of happenstance occuring, is there? I have not seen any kind of micro or macro phenomena that would lend credence to this model of the universe unfolding as stated.
In such, I don't think that it resonates with the Buddhist idea of DO. The relationship between the gun, the person pulling the trigger and death are all interconnected through cause/effect, meaning that multiple outcomes would be dependent on multiple causes... but how could that be? An orange tree gives birth to oranges, not oranges and apples.
With warmth,
Matt
I just wonder if Siddhartha Gautama had this attitude would he have found enlightenment ?
Yep, I agree.
These MW theories are "toy" theories to explain quirks in QM. There is no evidence for them or real reasons to believe them.
This has no foundation for speculation. I think you'll find it'd mainly in the field of the study of Mind.....
Then let science do this....
Yes indeed. My PoV is the same as the Buddha's. Why spend time cogitating on the unfathomable?
What is the point in Buddhism of disproving them, or otherwise?
How does this lend itself to practice? How does this make you understand the origin of suffering and the cessation of suffering?
Why must they?
On the contrary, I would say most lay Buddhist and indeed monks would have known what was skilful and what is unskilful - particularly as the Buddha gives clear direction and guidance on this.....
No.
In asking questions relating to the dhamma, I would agree.
Your question here in no way relates to the dhamma. So it's pointelss, unconjecturable and vexating.
It would only be bizarre if there was a direct point and valid conclusion to the question. As the question has no definitive answer, what's the point of examining it?
What does it bring you other than burned-out braincells and a waste of time?
Isn't that more bizarre?
It was because he found enlightenment that he developed this attitude.
He understood what is skilful and what isn't skilful.
The reason we have not found enlightenment, is because we persist in ignoring his skilful advice.....
But hey, don't mind me. Carry on discussing the fruitless.
I'll just sit and watch to see how long it is before somebody disappears up their own vortex......
As an FYI, HHDL he is very into science, and not just of the mind.
namaste
If either slit is covered, the individual photons hitting the screen, over time, create an ordinary diffraction pattern. But if both slits are left open, the pattern of photons hitting the screen, over time, again becomes a series of light and dark fringes. This result seems to both confirm and contradict the wave theory of light. This interference pattern of alternating bright and dark stripes which gradually appears, defies common sense. As, there is only one thing each photon can interact with—itself. The only way this pattern could form is if each photon passes through both slits at once and then interferes with its alternate self. It is as if a moviegoer exited a theater and found that his location on the sidewalk was determined by another version of himself that had left through a different exit and shoved him on the way out.
There have been countless experiments which confirm this, and it has been pointed out as evidence of being more than one universe.
It is interesting from a Buddhist point of view because I just wonder what would happen to the consciousness of the person, does this also split with the other universe or copy itself, maybe are mids are constantly with itself in different universes interacting which might explain why we get thoughts that we dont know where that came from and things such as deja vue.
Steven Hawkings calls the many worlds theory "trivially true", by which he means that it helps visualize certain problems, but he doesn't believe that there are really many worlds. Most people who study the various interpretations of quantum mechanics believe that the weirdness is due to a faulty model. It's widely thought that once a better model is proposed, the weirdness will disappear.
Personally, I'm not going to spend a lot of time speculating on links between Buddhism and theories that are likely to be discarded once science advances beyond it's current models.
So please stop getting worked up about this, if you don't agree and and don't want to spend your time thinking about it then don't.
Be tolerant, be Happy and may your mind be peaceful.
I treat it as I do a koan.
This might be what it does for you, burning out your mind, creating posts of deliberate and direct unhappiness, but for me, they help illumine natural patterns of the universe and give contrast and resonance to Buddhist teachings. For instance, this brief speculation gave rise to a more full understanding of DO and Quantum Physics. Plus it gives me an opportunity to know zidangus' curiosities better. Why are you so quick to vilify things?
I don't find this evidence to point toward those conclusions. I think that there are qualities to photons perhaps that remain unknown, but using such microcasmic experiments to conclude there is a splitting universe in front of each thought is dubious.
I wonder if the scientists in this experiment are falsely thinking that each photon is a container of the same conditions... or perhaps their emitter is letting out more than a single photon.
If there are more universes, well dang, I'm gonna have to clean out my garage. Where in the world would we put it?
With warmth,
Matt
Now that does sound Zen. :crazy:
Really? Wow..... :rolleyes:
Why are you so quick to vilify things?[/QUOTE]
I don't 'vilify things'. I see what is pointless, futile and aimless, and follow the Buddha's teaching on this. That attempting to spend time understanding such things is pointless futile and aimless.
Look, you can argue your reasoning all you like. Your cup is full, there's no point in trying to add more tea.
You won't listen to me, and you won't listen to the Buddha. This would imply that you know better than the Buddha taught, and I guess, you'll find out, in your own time,who's right.
I know who my money's on.
I don't find this evidence to point toward those conclusions. I think that there are qualities to photons perhaps that remain unknown, but using such microcasmic experiments to conclude there is a splitting universe in front of each thought is dubious.
I wonder if the scientists in this experiment are falsely thinking that each photon is a container of the same conditions... or perhaps their emitter is letting out more than a single photon.
If there are more universes, well dang, I'm gonna have to clean out my garage. Where in the world would we put it?
With warmth,
Matt[/QUOTE]
Speculation about the parallels between physics and Dharma or mystical gobbledygoop of any kind, is not given the time of day by the Zen teachers I know, nor any serious practitioners.
I've heard some wacky shit come out the mouths of Theravadin monks. It doesnt sound Theravadin to me.
why do that?
Yikes.
Well, hmmm... you seemed to collapse very directly into "this is how Matt is" which seems problematic. Are you sure that its my cup that is full?
With warmth,
Matt
And there, frankly, is where I'll leave it.
Enjoy your investigation.
There's only one, even though we don't know with 100% absolute certainty what it will be. :skeptical
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0003146
Steven Hawkings is not right all the time, I remember he argued that hawking radiation resulted in not just the black hole that disappeared but all the information about everything that had ever been inside the black hole disappeared too. This has been refuted by a paper by a brilliant young Argentinean mathematician known as Juan Maldacena. It claimed to be a rigorous mathematical explanation of what happened to information in black holes. It showed that information was not lost. And to my knowlege Hawkings has not come up with a a fully worked mathematical proof to back up his claim.
Since that paper was written, researchers claim to have run experiments that confirm non-locality. Since there's no experimental evidence that supports MWI, I think it's better to reinterpret the paper as showing that non-locality, which has experimental support, makes MWI unnecessary.
Of course not. I brought him up because he's often cited as a supporter of MWI, when in fact he only views it as a useful tool. You didn't cite him, and I apologize for bringing something up which wasn't necessary and just added confusion.
MWI, the Copenhagen explanation, non-locality, and other speculations are attempts to explain the weirdness of the basic model. Among other things, the model involves superimposing two states on the same object. Schroedinger's thought experiment with the cat was intended to demonstrate the problem with this. A cat cannot be both dead and alive at the same time. Similarly, no one has ever measured a photon that has both up and down spin at the same time. So the superposition of two states in the model seems to have no real world referent.
The model also depends on the "collapse of the wave function." The wave function is a mathematical function and no one knows what the collapse of a mathematical function is. Again, there seems to be no real world referent.
Science has a history of coming up with weird theories that are later replaced by simpler theories that remove the weirdness. Philostogen and aether are two examples. A lot of people believe that the current model will eventually be replaced by a better model that doesn't involve undead cats or collapsing math.
Yes, the Many Worlds interpretation is speculative, but it's neither casual nor empty speculation. There is some profound reasoning behind it. Personally, I find the idea of non-countable universe spawnings repulsive and non-locality appears sane by comparison. But that is just my opinion. It is important to consider all the alternatives.
Please remember that the theory of magnetism and electricity once started out as mere speculation. Without theoreticians like Maxwell laying the foundations, we wouldn't understand the electromagnetism properly. Our modern world depends on this understanding. One day, quantum mechanics might progress in the same way. What appears speculative and useless may pave the way for new insights.
If we dismissed all speculation in science, we would not get anywhere with the enterprise of science. The scientific method relies on formulating hypotheses, which are then tested by experiment. So, if we followed the advice to dismiss all speculation, we would still be sitting in caves hunting animals for a living.
Cheers, Thomas