Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Vipassana is a fruit of practice and not, as commonly misunderstood, a form of meditation.
This may be where your confusion arises?
I agree with this. We do not "practice" Vipassana as I said. It is just a result of the practice. Vipassana would mean direct insight.
This is my confusion. Two known monks speak of jhana in two different tones.
One says, jhana levels more than the nimitta experience are not necessary for insight. One says (as most monks from the Thai forest tradition say) that higher jhanas are necessary. I know the best way to find out is to practice and see for yourself :d But in the meantime what do you all think? (Kindly request to give me your ideas rather than URLs please
When wisdom has been nagging at those things to which the
Citta is firmly attached, what the Citta knows about them can-
not be superior to that which wisdom reveals, so the Citta will
then drop into a state of calm and attain Samãdhi.
People of this type must therefore train the Citta to attain
Samãdhi by using wisdom, which may be called “wisdom de-
velops samãdhi” — and is also the title given to this book.
When Samãdhi steadily develops due to the use of wisdom,
the Samãdhi then becomes the basis for further wisdom at a
higher level. This latter stage then conforms with the basic prin-
ciple that: “Samãdhi develops wisdom”.
There are body and mind, that's all, only these two things. All that is contained within this frame sitting here now is called ''body.'' The ''mind'' is that which is aware and is thinking at this very moment. These two things are also called ''nāma'' and ''rūpa.'' ''Nāma'' refers to that which has no ''rūpa,'' or form. All thoughts and feelings, or the four mental khandhas of feeling, perception, volition and consciousness, are nāma, they are all formless. When the eye sees form, that form is called rūpa, while the awareness is called nāma. Together they are called nāma and rūpa, or simply body and mind.
Understand that sitting here in this present moment are only body and mind. But we get these two things confused with each other. If you want peace you must know the truth of them. The mind in its present state is still untrained; it's dirty, not clear. It is not yet the pure mind. We must further train this mind through the practice of meditation.
...
So you must contemplate in order to find peace. What people usually refer to as peace is simply the calming of the mind, not the calming of the defilements. The defilements are simply being temporarily subdued, just like grass covered by a rock. In three or four days you take the rock off the grass and in no long time it grows up again. The grass hadn't really died, it was simply being suppressed. It's the same when sitting in meditation: the mind is calmed but the defilements are not really calmed. Therefore, samādhi is not a sure thing. To find real peace you must develop wisdom. Samādhi is one kind of peace, like the rock covering the grass... in a few days you take the rock away and the grass grows up again. This is only a temporary peace. The peace of wisdom is like putting the rock down and not lifting it up, just leaving it where it is. The grass can't possibly grow again. This is real peace, the calming of the defilements, the sure peace which results from wisdom.
We speak of wisdom (paññā) and samādhi as separate things, but in essence they are one and the same. Wisdom is the dynamic function of samādhi; samādhi is the passive aspect of wisdom. They arise from the same place but take different directions, different functions, like this mango here. A small green mango eventually grows larger and larger until it is ripe. It is all the same mango, the larger one and the ripe one are all the same mango, but its condition changes. In Dhamma practice, one condition is called samādhi, the later condition is called paññā, but in actuality sīla, samādhi, and paññā are all the same thing, just like the mango.
So they both say samadhi is important for wisdom. Thanks a lot Metta
Now, back to my question please:
Two known monks speak of jhana in two different tones.
One says, jhana levels more than the nimitta experience are not necessary for insight. One says (as most monks from the Thai forest tradition say) that higher jhanas are necessary. I know the best way to find out is to practice and see for yourself :d But in the meantime what do you all think? (Kindly request to give me your ideas rather than URLs please
The "guests" here are the signs (nimitta) and vagrant breaths that will tend to pass within the range of the breath you are dealing with: the various signs that arise from the breath and may appear as images — bright lights, people, animals, yourself, others; or as sounds — the voices of people, some you recognize and others you don't. In some cases the signs appear as smells — either fragrant or else foul like a corpse. Sometimes the in-breath can make you feel so full throughout the body that you have no sense of hunger or thirst. Sometimes the breath can send warm, hot, cold, or tingling sensations through the body. Sometimes it can cause things that never occurred to you before to spring suddenly to mind.
All of these things are classed as guests. Before you go receiving guests, you should put your breath and mind into good order, making them stable and secure. In receiving these guests, you first have to bring them under your control. If you can't control them, don't have anything to do with them. They might lead you astray. But if you can put them through their paces, they can be of use to you later on.
To put them through their paces means to change them at will, through the power of thought (patibhaga nimitta) — making them small, large, sending them far away, bringing them up close, making them appear and disappear, sending them outside, bringing them in. Only then will you be able to use them in training the mind.
[/QUOTE]
"In the same way, a monk intent on heightened mind should attend periodically to three themes: he should attend periodically to the theme of concentration; he should attend periodically to the theme of uplifted energy; he should attend periodically to the theme of equanimity. If the monk intent on heightened mind were to attend solely to the theme of concentration, it is possible that his mind would tend to laziness. If he were to attend solely to the theme of uplifted energy, it is possible that his mind would tend to restlessness. If he were to attend solely to the theme of equanimity, it is possible that his mind would not be rightly centered for the stopping of the fermentations. But when he attends periodically to the theme of concentration, attends periodically to the theme of uplifted energy, attends periodically to the theme of equanimity, his mind is pliant, malleable, luminous, and not brittle. It is rightly centered for the stopping of the fermentations.
"And then whichever of the higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening.
One says, jhana levels more than the nimitta experience are not necessary for insight. One says (as most monks from the Thai forest tradition say) that higher jhanas are necessary.
not true. few ajahns in the thai forest tradition prescribe to commentarial understandings of jhana like ajahn brahm. you don't need this sort of jhana to have insight.
1. Momentary concentration: the act of the mind's growing still for a moment, like a person walking along: One foot takes a step while the other foot stops still for a moment before taking the next step.
2. Threshold concentration: the act of the mind's settling down deeper than that, like a person who is walking along, meets with something, and stops to look for a moment — with neither foot taking a step — before he resumes walking.
These two types of concentration are not without their dangers or enemies. If you're not proficient enough at them, they may deteriorate — or you may get hooked on them. The dangers that arise in the wake of these types of concentration are (a) growing attached to the meditation syllable, having no sense of when to stop repeating it; (b) being taken in by the five forms of rapture; (c) playing around with visions and signs that appear, regarding them as especially true or potent.
All of these phenomena, if you're wise to them, can help lead to the paths and fruitions leading to nibbana. If you aren't wise to them and become attached to them as something special, the mind is sure to fall for the various forms of rapture and to start drifting astray. You might start behaving under the influence of what you see in your meditation or intimate to others that you have invincible powers or clairvoyant abilities. All of this can destroy your concentration. Your mindfulness and self-restraint will become weak and you'll drift along under the influence of whatever occurs to the mind — self-indulgent, dreaming, and drifting. These phenomena thus become your enemies, killing off the level of concentration that's resolute and endowed with the discernment capable of seeing through all three levels of being.
This is why the above phenomena are termed enemies. When we begin meditating, though, we have to start out by clinging to these very same enemies. But in clinging to them, don't be complacent, because they're only a path. Ordinarily, when we walk along a path, we don't have to pull it up and carry it along behind us. We just leave it where it is. In the same way, the meditation syllable, rapture, and visions are things we have to pass through, but not that we have to latch onto — thinking, for instance, that we've already reached the goal. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/craft.html
If you do want to gain those benefits, though, here's how it's done: Focus your powers of investigation back on your primal sense of the body and mind until liberating insight arises. The insight that acts as a stairway to the transcendent level is based on jhana at the level of fixed penetration, focusing the mind resolutely to reach the first level of rupa jhana. Those people who have a good deal of discernment will — once the mind has attained concentration for only a short while — focus directly in on mental phenomena. I.e., they'll focus on the mind and investigate its preoccupation until they clearly see the true nature of physical and mental phenomena. The state of mind that clings to physical and mental phenomena will vanish, and while it is vanishing the "state of mind changing lineage (gotarabhu citta)" is said to arise. When the mind can know what mundane mental states are like and what transcendent mental states are like, that's called gotarabhu ñana, change-of-lineage knowledge, i.e., comprehension of nibbana.
Here we're talking about people who are inclined to focus primarily on the mind, who tend to develop insight meditation more than tranquillity meditation. Their Awakening is termed release through discernment (pañña-vimutti). Although they don't develop all of the mundane skills that come along with concentration — i.e., they don't master all of the three skills, the eight skills, or the four forms of acumen — they still master the one crucial skill, the knowledge that does away with the effluents of defilement (asavakkhaya-ñana).
Those who tend more toward tranquillity meditation, though, are in no great hurry. They develop all the levels of jhana, going back and forth, again and again, until they're expert in both rupa jhana and arupa jhana. Then they return to the fourth level of rupa jhana and focus strongly on it, taking the inner sense of the form of the body as their object — their uggaha nimitta — and then manipulating it back and forth (patibhaga nimitta) to the point where their powers of mindfulness and alertness are firm. They focus until their minds are neutral and still, steady with a single object, uninvolved with any outside preoccupations. They then will be able to identify exactly how rupa jhana and arupa jhana differ — and will realize that the fourth level of rupa jhana is the crucial one, giving the mind strength in a variety of ways.
When you reach this point, focus on the fourth level of rupa jhana. Keep the mind neutral and still, constantly focused on a single object. Focus on one spot as your frame of reference (satipatthana), i.e., on the subtle sense of the body at this level, in and of itself. When you are strongly focused, a sense of brightness will develop, and a variety of amazing skills — either mundane or transcendent, depending in part on the power of your jhana — will arise in the mind.
The knowledge and skills arising from jhana can free you from all suffering and stress. But most of us, by and large, don't think of looking for these skills. We're interested only in those skills and forms of knowledge that will keep us bound to suffering and stress on and on through time. So those who aim for well-being that is clear and clean should train their minds to give rise to jhana, which is one of the treasures of the Noble Ones.
The four levels of rupa jhana and the four levels of arupa jhana, taken together, are called the eight attainments (samapatti), all of which come down to two sorts: mundane and transcendent. In mundane jhana, the person who has attained jhana assumes that, 'This is my self,' or 'I am that,' and holds fast to these assumptions, not giving rise to the knowledge that can let go of those things in line with their true nature. This is classed as sakkaya-ditthi, the viewpoint that leads us to self-identification, the feeling that, 'This is me,' or 'This is mine.' This in turn leads to silabbata-paramasa, attachment to our accustomed practices, i.e., seeing jhana as something of magical potency, that whatever we set our minds on attaining will have to come true. As for our doubts (vicikiccha) about the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, these haven't been cleared up, because we've been deflected at this level and haven't gotten any further.
Thus whoever attains jhana without abandoning the three fetters (sanyojana) is practicing mundane jhana. Mundane jhana, unless you're really expert at it, is the easiest thing in the world to lose. It's always ready to deteriorate at the slightest disturbance from sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, and ideas. Sometimes you may be sitting in jhana and then, when you get up and walk away, it's gone.
As for transcendent jhana: When you've attained rupa jhana, you go back to examine the various levels until you are expert at them and then develop insight meditation so as to see mundane jhana for what it really is. In other words, you see that the preoccupations of both rupa jhana and arupa jhana are inconstant, stressful, and not-self. Once this knowledge arises, you are able to let go of the various preoccupations of jhana; and once the mind is set loose from rupa jhana and arupa jhana, it enters the transcendent level; the stream to nibbana. It cuts the three fetters — self-identification, grasping at practices and habits, and uncertainty — and is headed straight for nibbana. When you have cut the three fetters, your jhana is transcendent jhana; your virtue, concentration, and discernment are all transcendent.
Once you have mastered these two modes of jhana, they will give rise to the various abilities, mundane or transcendent, taught by Buddhism that differ from worldly skills in that they can arise only after the attainment of jhana. Among these skills are the three skills (vijja), the eight skills, and the four forms of acumen (patisambhida-ñana)... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/craft.html#p2-18
For Sudden school, every circumstances is jhana. For gradual school, samadhi and insight work together to evoke the jhana. The degree of jhana depends on the settling of dust. Gradual school reaches a level would achieve jhana as that of Sudden school
one can burn out like 10,000 suns with seven nagas overhead, or like a firefly, ultimately it doesn't really matter beyond the extent you want to help beings and seek knowledge.
Do we "practice" vipassana? Or does insight just arises when the mind is calm and at samadhi?
We do not practice Vipassana. Vipassana is a fruit/phala of meditation. "Vipassana meditation" is mis-naming a form of meditation after one of it's fruits. Vipassana arises naturally in the calmed mind.
Does your school subscribe to/work with Jhana? Or does it not discuss it or propose suppressing naturally arising Jhana? Or something else entirely?
Just interested.
Warmly,
Matthew
Hi Matthew
Yes, it does. I sit with the Samatha Trust (U.K)
I've worked through periods of ambivalency towards this practice - there being a seeming disjunct between on and off cushion worlds, but that says more about my own "latent tendencies" I think, more than anything else.
It is a very subtle practice. And despite the press, I have never met a
"jhana junkie". Sour grapes, perhaps.
the following passage from Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche's 'Meditation in Action' published in the first issue of Garuda:
There are two types of dhyana as described by the scriptures. The first is that of the Bodhisattva, where because of his compassionate energy, the practice of meditation -- in this case, mindfulness -- takes place all the time. Dhyana literally means awareness, being in a state of 'awake', in terms of recollection, being mindful. But this does not necessarily mean the practice of meditation in a formal sense at all. The Bodhisattva never seeks for a higher dhyana state or for bliss or complete absorption. He is being awake to the situations as they are. He is particularly aware of the continuity of dhyana with generosity, morality, patience, and energy. There is a continual feeling of 'awake'. That is the Bodhisattva's meditation.
The other type of practice, which is based on the development of ego, is the practice which concerns the realm of the gods, the highest of the six hallucinatory realms... That is, I might say, the practice of spiritual materialism in its highest, most mystical aspect. Materialism in this case is the tangible, centralized ego notion of meditation, which actually transcends the spiritual aspect of good or bad, at least temporarily.
The first stage of this meditation is limitless space ... The next stage is limitless consciousness... The ego finally gets to the conclusion of, not this, not my empire. I don't exist because my empire is so vast and gigantic that even I , ego, mean nothing...
We do not practice Vipassana. Vipassana is a fruit/phala of meditation. "Vipassana meditation" is mis-naming a form of meditation after one of it's fruits. Vipassana arises naturally in the calmed mind.
Matthew
Yes I agree with this
I have a lot of reading to do but very little time. Thanks a lot for all teh replies everyone.
not true. few ajahns in the thai forest tradition prescribe to commentarial understandings of jhana like ajahn brahm. you don't need this sort of jhana to have insight.
Thanks Metta. I was actually looking for a straight forward answer like this one. If I am not mistaken Ajhan Char explicitly talked about his heighted samadhi experiences and the meditative absorptions.
However, I'll be more interested in what the suttas got to say.
This is my confusion. Two known monks speak of jhana in two different tones.
One says, jhana levels more than the nimitta experience are not necessary for insight. One says (as most monks from the Thai forest tradition say) that higher jhanas are necessary. I know the best way to find out is to practice and see for yourself :d But in the meantime what do you all think? (Kindly request to give me your ideas rather than URLs please
Do not reject, nor cling, to anything in your meditation. Absorptions are no different to any other phenomena. Each has it's causes and therefore is subject to decay. People stuck in Jhana are as helpful as Heroin addicts. It's just another tool on the path. I'm not going to post a url but my teacher taught me that the Buddha taught the first four Jhanas are needed for insight to arise as a condition of Nibanna whilst the further absorptions lead to gifts such as clairvoyance, seeing past lives, etc.
Yes, it does. I sit with the Samatha Trust (U.K)
I've worked through periods of ambivalency towards this practice - there being a seeming disjunct between on and off cushion worlds, but that says more about my own "latent tendencies" I think, more than anything else.
It is a very subtle practice. And despite the press, I have never met a
"jhana junkie". Sour grapes, perhaps.
Thanks imagemarie,
It is a refined practice and very subtle, easy to mistake and easy to get stuck in rather than letting go of. I have "met" one "Jhana junkie", online at least. Like many "higher practices" some people seem to feed the ego not cut the fetters in practice.
btw .. I know someone who studies with the Samatha trust
Comments
I agree with this. We do not "practice" Vipassana as I said. It is just a result of the practice. Vipassana would mean direct insight.
This is my confusion. Two known monks speak of jhana in two different tones.
One says, jhana levels more than the nimitta experience are not necessary for insight. One says (as most monks from the Thai forest tradition say) that higher jhanas are necessary. I know the best way to find out is to practice and see for yourself :d But in the meantime what do you all think? (Kindly request to give me your ideas rather than URLs please
When wisdom has been nagging at those things to which the
Citta is firmly attached, what the Citta knows about them can-
not be superior to that which wisdom reveals, so the Citta will
then drop into a state of calm and attain Samãdhi.
People of this type must therefore train the Citta to attain
Samãdhi by using wisdom, which may be called “wisdom de-
velops samãdhi” — and is also the title given to this book.
When Samãdhi steadily develops due to the use of wisdom,
the Samãdhi then becomes the basis for further wisdom at a
higher level. This latter stage then conforms with the basic prin-
ciple that: “Samãdhi develops wisdom”.
There are body and mind, that's all, only these two things. All that is contained within this frame sitting here now is called ''body.'' The ''mind'' is that which is aware and is thinking at this very moment. These two things are also called ''nāma'' and ''rūpa.'' ''Nāma'' refers to that which has no ''rūpa,'' or form. All thoughts and feelings, or the four mental khandhas of feeling, perception, volition and consciousness, are nāma, they are all formless. When the eye sees form, that form is called rūpa, while the awareness is called nāma. Together they are called nāma and rūpa, or simply body and mind.
Understand that sitting here in this present moment are only body and mind. But we get these two things confused with each other. If you want peace you must know the truth of them. The mind in its present state is still untrained; it's dirty, not clear. It is not yet the pure mind. We must further train this mind through the practice of meditation.
So you must contemplate in order to find peace. What people usually refer to as peace is simply the calming of the mind, not the calming of the defilements. The defilements are simply being temporarily subdued, just like grass covered by a rock. In three or four days you take the rock off the grass and in no long time it grows up again. The grass hadn't really died, it was simply being suppressed. It's the same when sitting in meditation: the mind is calmed but the defilements are not really calmed. Therefore, samādhi is not a sure thing. To find real peace you must develop wisdom. Samādhi is one kind of peace, like the rock covering the grass... in a few days you take the rock away and the grass grows up again. This is only a temporary peace. The peace of wisdom is like putting the rock down and not lifting it up, just leaving it where it is. The grass can't possibly grow again. This is real peace, the calming of the defilements, the sure peace which results from wisdom.
We speak of wisdom (paññā) and samādhi as separate things, but in essence they are one and the same. Wisdom is the dynamic function of samādhi; samādhi is the passive aspect of wisdom. They arise from the same place but take different directions, different functions, like this mango here. A small green mango eventually grows larger and larger until it is ripe. It is all the same mango, the larger one and the ripe one are all the same mango, but its condition changes. In Dhamma practice, one condition is called samādhi, the later condition is called paññā, but in actuality sīla, samādhi, and paññā are all the same thing, just like the mango.
Now, back to my question please:
The "guests" here are the signs (nimitta) and vagrant breaths that will tend to pass within the range of the breath you are dealing with: the various signs that arise from the breath and may appear as images — bright lights, people, animals, yourself, others; or as sounds — the voices of people, some you recognize and others you don't. In some cases the signs appear as smells — either fragrant or else foul like a corpse. Sometimes the in-breath can make you feel so full throughout the body that you have no sense of hunger or thirst. Sometimes the breath can send warm, hot, cold, or tingling sensations through the body. Sometimes it can cause things that never occurred to you before to spring suddenly to mind.
All of these things are classed as guests. Before you go receiving guests, you should put your breath and mind into good order, making them stable and secure. In receiving these guests, you first have to bring them under your control. If you can't control them, don't have anything to do with them. They might lead you astray. But if you can put them through their paces, they can be of use to you later on.
To put them through their paces means to change them at will, through the power of thought (patibhaga nimitta) — making them small, large, sending them far away, bringing them up close, making them appear and disappear, sending them outside, bringing them in. Only then will you be able to use them in training the mind.
[/QUOTE]
from method 2: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2Ki74KbfPLs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2Ki74KbfPLs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
We do not practice Vipassana. Vipassana is a fruit/phala of meditation. "Vipassana meditation" is mis-naming a form of meditation after one of it's fruits. Vipassana arises naturally in the calmed mind.
Matthew
Well ... if you're going to use a metaphor at least make it one that sticks !
Hi Matthew
Yes, it does. I sit with the Samatha Trust (U.K)
I've worked through periods of ambivalency towards this practice - there being a seeming disjunct between on and off cushion worlds, but that says more about my own "latent tendencies" I think, more than anything else.
It is a very subtle practice. And despite the press, I have never met a
"jhana junkie". Sour grapes, perhaps.
the following passage from Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche's 'Meditation in Action' published in the first issue of Garuda:
There are two types of dhyana as described by the scriptures. The first is that of the Bodhisattva, where because of his compassionate energy, the practice of meditation -- in this case, mindfulness -- takes place all the time. Dhyana literally means awareness, being in a state of 'awake', in terms of recollection, being mindful. But this does not necessarily mean the practice of meditation in a formal sense at all. The Bodhisattva never seeks for a higher dhyana state or for bliss or complete absorption. He is being awake to the situations as they are. He is particularly aware of the continuity of dhyana with generosity, morality, patience, and energy. There is a continual feeling of 'awake'. That is the Bodhisattva's meditation.
The other type of practice, which is based on the development of ego, is the practice which concerns the realm of the gods, the highest of the six hallucinatory realms... That is, I might say, the practice of spiritual materialism in its highest, most mystical aspect. Materialism in this case is the tangible, centralized ego notion of meditation, which actually transcends the spiritual aspect of good or bad, at least temporarily.
The first stage of this meditation is limitless space ... The next stage is limitless consciousness... The ego finally gets to the conclusion of, not this, not my empire. I don't exist because my empire is so vast and gigantic that even I , ego, mean nothing...
Yes I agree with this
I have a lot of reading to do but very little time. Thanks a lot for all teh replies everyone.
Thanks Metta. I was actually looking for a straight forward answer like this one. If I am not mistaken Ajhan Char explicitly talked about his heighted samadhi experiences and the meditative absorptions.
However, I'll be more interested in what the suttas got to say.
Do not reject, nor cling, to anything in your meditation. Absorptions are no different to any other phenomena. Each has it's causes and therefore is subject to decay. People stuck in Jhana are as helpful as Heroin addicts. It's just another tool on the path. I'm not going to post a url but my teacher taught me that the Buddha taught the first four Jhanas are needed for insight to arise as a condition of Nibanna whilst the further absorptions lead to gifts such as clairvoyance, seeing past lives, etc.
Matthew
Thanks imagemarie,
It is a refined practice and very subtle, easy to mistake and easy to get stuck in rather than letting go of. I have "met" one "Jhana junkie", online at least. Like many "higher practices" some people seem to feed the ego not cut the fetters in practice.
btw .. I know someone who studies with the Samatha trust
Matthew
Do these first four come before the Nimitta experience as per your teacher?
Lol, AB is a self proclaimed "meditation junkie"