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Jhana Bliss and Ecstacy ...
Does your school subscribe to/work with Jhana? Or does it not discuss it or propose suppressing naturally arising Jhana? Or something else entirely?
Just interested.
Warmly,
Matthew
Just interested.
Warmly,
Matthew
0
Comments
Jhāna (Pāli: झन; Sanskrit: ध्यान dhyāna) is a meditative state of profound stillness and concentration. It is discussed in the Pāli canon (and the parallel agamas) and post-canonical Theravāda Buddhist literature.
In the early texts, it is taught as a state of collected, full-body awareness in which mind becomes very powerful and still but not frozen, and is thus able to observe and gain insight into the changing flow of experience.<sup id="cite_ref-0" class="reference">[1]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference">[2]</sup> Later Theravada literature, in particular the Visuddhimagga, describes it as an abiding in which the mind becomes fully immersed and absorbed in the chosen object of attention,<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference">[3]</sup> characterized by non-dual consciousness.<sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference">[4]</sup>
The Buddha himself entered jhāna, as described in the early texts, during his own quest for enlightenment, and is constantly seen in the suttas encouraging his disciples to develop jhāna as a way of achieving awakening and liberation.<sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference">[5]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference">[6]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-6" class="reference">[7]</sup>
If bliss and/or ecstasy arise while in meditation ( that is usually where jhana is experienced ), i would say do not become focused on it, let come and go naturally.
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"Suppressing naturally arising jhana." This makes jhana sound like a fleeting mental object that can be suppressed.
Often practitiones simply experience some out of control momentary rapture and then think they have experienced jhana.
I recall the last thread of a INTERNET JHANA MASTER who could not sleep at night, believing he had experienced jhana. A mind out of control with infatuation & craving for some cartharthis bliss it cannot sleep at night. This is not jhana.
Real jhana is born of abandonment, of letting go.
Jhana has not been experienced here. That is obvious. The proposed questions of discussion make that very clear.
Possibly the questions can be rephrased, such as:
"Does your school subscribe to/work with discursive states of mind? Or does it not discuss it or propose suppressing naturally arising states of ignorant bliss? Or something else entirely? Does your school subscribe to/work with abandoning becoming in relation to states of mind?"
Yes. "My school" regards jhana as something completely different.
It regards it as the real thing rather than an imagined state one identifies with due to reading the word 'jhana' in a book.
My school regards it as an object not worth grasping at.
My school does not regard it as "ecstasy" but, instead, as impermanent, unsatisfactory & void phenomena.
:om:
My school:
I know The IB quite well (we've corresponded regularly) and I can tell you, you're leaping off the wrong foot, and jumping to conclusions, here....
While I understand your suspicion, I can tell you it's without foundation.....
When I came to Buddhism nothing like this was taught to me by either Theravadin or Zen teachers.
What is the difference between this Vedanta practice and Jhana in Buddhism?
Some buddhist schools work with jhana, it is a type of experience that arises during meditation. What do you mean by "suppress"?
More 'jhana talk' about mere trifling momentary experiences of a little happiness in meditation.
It is just that real jhana is so selfless that discussing selflessness seems more appropriate than discussing the ecstacy.
Also, for me, being able to 'supress' jhana makes no sense at all.
Jhana is an exalted state, an expansive state.
Not bizarre, but literal questions. And I know Jhana is real.
Some schools and teachers though do tell their students to suppress any naturally arising Jhana. Some do not discuss it all at.
And of course Jhana is transitional and fleeting. People who get stuck chasing Jhana are like hungry ghosts, very lost. Might as well be Heroin addicts.
However, Jhana is also a foundation for clear insight to arise as a fruit of practice. So to say:
Is missing the point.
Questions asked out of interest. Ulterior motives: none.
Matthew
You could also use it to build a bridge that lets love and awareness flow to people who are sour.
With warmth,
Matt
What is the 'jhana' you are referring to?
If I suggested to suppress a moving elephant, is that possible?
Someone who mistakes a mouse for an elephant could possibly answer "yes".
Jhana is not an elephant. Are you saying jhana is a mammal with a trunk?
The one-pointed quality of jhana can be compared to the whirlpool that occurs when the plug is pulled from the bath tub.
The one-pointedness occurs from pulling the plug. The pulling of the plug causes the water to empty from the bath.
When the bath tub is nearly empty, the whirlpool starts or becomes visible.
Jhana is the same. When the mental formations in the body are completely emptied or tranquilised, the 'whirlpool' of one-pointedness occurs within the mind.
However, this only happens due to pulling the plug.
There is only one practise, namely, pulling the plug.
Once this is done, the water drains by itself, following the flow, stream or pull of nature.
Ditto. Not speaking of any personal experience but from what I have read about Jhana, specifically from AB's book, Jhana states are in fact states of letting go. And they are not under your control. If they are under your control they are not states of letting go. All you do is let go aka pull the plug. Then your mind automatically gets absorbed into jhanas and once you are inside a jhana experience you cannot determine when you will get out of it. The doer portion of the mind is completely gone.
- Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond
AB does not call the initial meditative concentration a jhana. He just names it as "sustained attention on the breath". Jhanas come only after the mind has gone upto the level of Nimitta which is a deeper absorption level
-MN 118
I haven't come across the kind of detail in the book in the suttas really. It's 200+ paged book only on meditation
Btw, is this a sutta?
Vipassana and insight happens when in the immediate neighborhood of Jhana not while in the jhana. I suggest you read the book because all I'm doing is just quoting it to you
OK I'm glad you brought this up. This is a question I have always had. I have always wondered if AB is talking about a more absorption kind of meditation in his book. In fact Bhikku Buddhadasa doesn't talk about absorptions at all in "mindfulness with breathing" nor is it mentioned in the suttas.
However, most Thai forest monks (Ajhan Char included) talk about the non-dual absorption. They develop the meditation beyond the Nimitta experience. I don't understand how insight/wisdom arises just like that, without higher jhanas. Maybe you can explain this to me please?
"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.070.than.html
OK let's see if this will answer my question
Many thanks
Does this statement talk about higher jhana absorptions? I am not too sure. That is the only place the sutta talks about jhana states explicitly.
The rest is about how enlightenment is not achieving knowledge of past lives, rebirth, gods, realms and those psychic powers but gaining insight into inpermanence, suffering and not-self in all phenomina.
I am not really convinced that the quoted message says that jhana states are not necessary for enlightenment.
Can we achieve this knowledge without jhana? I don't think so. We all understand not-self still we have attachment to the self view. Clearly, mere understanding is not enough for release.
Deshy,
Vipassana is a fruit of practice and not, as commonly misunderstood, a form of meditation.
This may be where your confusion arises?
Warmly,
Matthew
what is Vipassana as a fruit of practice?