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Political correctness of mental sufferings and Buddhism
Hello, I am a Japanese. I can't say I am learnd of Buddhism, but I often find Buddah's teaching sounds natural to me. I have a question to talk about with folks, and I do not know where I should go to, for some reasons. Please allow me to make a question to those who learned the teaching of Buddah.
My question is about political correctness in U.S. I had recently a bad experience on an online forum about political correctness for people with clinical depressios (I myself have been diagonized as clinical depression before, but now I am not so). What I posted there was that it is possible for us to ease our illness by changing our mind, for I believed most ilness have their causes in our mind. I did not intend nothing bad, just posted my opinion, but my statement provoked another forum member and she started arguing against me, saying that illness are caused by virus or other scientificaly identified reasons, it is not about our mindsets, what I wrote was nothing but medical misinformation therefore the forum mderators should delete my messages.
I apologized her, for I did not want to hurt anyone's feeling. I have experienced kinds of sufferings several times and learned how one's mindset is important for our health. I just wanted to talk about this experience, but it was got wrong.
I do not know how many of you have suffered from mental problems. However, I believe you Buddhists understand me. Frankly speaking, I think it is a fake to reduce every mental sufferings to brain problems. "The depresseins are caused by brain disfunctions, and the goverment is promoting the reaseach of brain science for the depressions, therefore you do not need to worry about social problems that may cause people's sufferings." I think this is a realy horrible ideology. Isn't it?
Political correctness of mental illness, that matters a lot both in U.S and Japan today, is going wrong, No? What do you Buddhists think about this? Hope your opinions.
Thanks.
My question is about political correctness in U.S. I had recently a bad experience on an online forum about political correctness for people with clinical depressios (I myself have been diagonized as clinical depression before, but now I am not so). What I posted there was that it is possible for us to ease our illness by changing our mind, for I believed most ilness have their causes in our mind. I did not intend nothing bad, just posted my opinion, but my statement provoked another forum member and she started arguing against me, saying that illness are caused by virus or other scientificaly identified reasons, it is not about our mindsets, what I wrote was nothing but medical misinformation therefore the forum mderators should delete my messages.
I apologized her, for I did not want to hurt anyone's feeling. I have experienced kinds of sufferings several times and learned how one's mindset is important for our health. I just wanted to talk about this experience, but it was got wrong.
I do not know how many of you have suffered from mental problems. However, I believe you Buddhists understand me. Frankly speaking, I think it is a fake to reduce every mental sufferings to brain problems. "The depresseins are caused by brain disfunctions, and the goverment is promoting the reaseach of brain science for the depressions, therefore you do not need to worry about social problems that may cause people's sufferings." I think this is a realy horrible ideology. Isn't it?
Political correctness of mental illness, that matters a lot both in U.S and Japan today, is going wrong, No? What do you Buddhists think about this? Hope your opinions.
Thanks.
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Comments
In most case (not all), their brain is functioning perfectly well, simply doing what it was designed to do.
But maybe this will eventually change for the better, there are many neurologists and scientists discovering the benefit of such tools as meditation, and getting very positive results from their studies. But then again, they are going against filthy rich pharma companies who will not go down easy
About that lady that you offended, here's an interesting story by Ajahn Brahm.
The 'pile of dung's tory is very true.
She was clinging to her pile of dung.
That is, by putting forward another point of view (very educated, very sound, very logical and well-researched) you challenged her "safe place". Her 'safe place' is refuge from personal responsibility.
She maintains that mental conditions are viral, and cannot be eliminated as you suggest.
To accept this idea for her, would make her responsible for her own mental well-being.
She is not ready for this, and could not face such a suggestion....
I agree with you that mental conditions can be eased by Buddhist practises, such as meditation. But many people with mental issues and conditions, still require medication and chemical support. This is absolutely right and of course, they should be encouraged to do whatever is best for them, whatever that means.
Some people are prepared for change.
Some people are prepared TO change.
Some - need handling with tact and discretion.
Sometimes, it is best to walk away and permit them to remain in their pile of dung.
Perhaps right at that moment, this is what they need to do, more than anything else.
Nice to meet you.
Thank you for joining us.
If it makes you happier, Japanese food is my most favourite in the whole world!! I have an ambition to try fugu!
Ajahn Bram's story is realy touching ... It is very pity to see the old frined in the dung pile do not understand the word from his friend ... and also I wonder why one was up to the heaven and antoher had to put int dung pile ...
I think this is realy a problem. I feel as if depressions are now part of the capitalism, people's suffering are on sale ...
Thanks Federica, Nice to meet you.
Yes, that is what it was. She said she was suffering from depression. I told her that I was not blaming her by saying that depressions had mental causes so patients were responsible for it, but she said nothing to this. Science is of course good and important, but I believe it is wrong to leave one's mental problem to anti-depressants... she must got furious if hearing she is described as a warm in a dung pile! (Sorry, funny ;D)
Fugu! I love fugu very much, but have only three times had it ever.
Patbb and Federica, I am very glad to see Buddhists who understand me!
Who imposed one's opinion on me was the lady I mentioned in the initial post. I was not assertive on my opinion at all. All I did was that I posted my view, and the lady went mad. I did not talk back to her. Maybe she felt as if her human right as a depressive patient was violated by an opinion form another side she wasnt aquited with. She was so deeply pius of her religion in modern pscychiatry.
To be hoenst in my opinion, brain disfuctions are too much emphasized in disccussions about depressions. It is the reason why I say so that when I suffered from illness I could not get well by taking drugs but once the circumstances very stressful to me were resolved I recovered from the depression very quickly , though some remnants of the ilness were left.
This is my opinion, but againt, I did not pose it on her. I did not post that.
Thanks your opinion.
Note that you do not have to convince this person and you reacted skillfully by apologizing. It would have been nice to say that your statement was reasonable and you do not agree it should be deleted.
If its a secular forum though I WOULDN'T go quoting buddha, sutras, etc....
Just state it in secular language. Trungpa Rinpoche is able to do this and it will deepen your practice if you are able to root your buddhism in the earth of everyday experience.
If buddhism is true then it should be able to confirm it in everyday experience.
Example is cognitive behavioural therapy. Research on this. Another example closer to buddhism is Mindfulness in therapy.
Google up some supporting links.
This person also probably had some bad experiences with people telling her she is wrong to take drugs. For example scientologists...
Great place to come for informed opinions!!
I agree with Federica... You challenged her safe place.
A few close people have chronic diseases. One accepts responsibility. One thinks it doesn't come into the equation and the other is (excuse me but I know her well) basking in it.
I can say that the one accpeting responsibility and with the pragmatic mindset is amazing his doctors.
As my psychotherapy teacher says: You are not your illness. It is a part of you. It is a sub-personality. A petal of a many-petalled rose.
I 'used' to be bipolar. I sorted by crap out. I recognised I was addicted to the highs and didn't know who I was without them. Because I had no identity (or so I thought) I put up with the lows.
Then I got some confidence. I trained for two years - working on balancing my emotions. I came out as bisexual. Met an amazing girl. I stopped running between high and low to seek refuge from reality. I fell in love with real life. I sorted my finances out, my diet, my level of exercise; I became creative again; I became a nice person again; I loved with all my heart, everyone I could. I came off the serious mental illness register here in the UK and have never had a symptm since (that was back in 2002).
I believe in what you say Nescafe. If you believe in it then frustrating as other views may be they won't bother you. Let them inform you though. You can learn something I think from most people. Let them make you a better person.
Accept that when the student is ready the teacher will appear and she is not ready to be taught/ you were not the right person to teach her.
Accept that we are all entitled to the beliefs that make us tick.
I am most certainly NOT saying that drugs are evil, or that taking them is wrong. Depression probably IS connected with the state of your brain; what many don't realize is that through practice and meditation, you can change the state of your brain. However, this takes much time and effort. Medication is very useful in that it can bring a person to a less afflicted state in a short period of time. The medicated person can then begin working on their issues.
In spite of this, it is likely that some brain diseases (like epilepsy and probably schizophrenia) are not amenable to improvement through meditation and practice.
I couldn't agree more. But as I have said before, it is very complex and there is more than likely an interaction between brain states, subjective experience and the environment
The problem can also be that depression works on itself, and one can feel to drained to even take the positive steps they know they should take.
I personally am of the opinion that sometimes medication simply is necessary, but rarely will it completely solve the problem, and positive changes in lifestyle and behavior in addition to any meds if necessary is the best route.
I mean who cannot benefit from a more positive lifestyle? It might not eliminate the need for meds, but it might, and it almost certainly gives the meds a better chance to work successfully.
Great discussion is going. Dont you think depressions are sometime helpful to know about ourselves? Isnt it better to use depression for us to make it toward the enlightments?
Well said. Some people who convince themselves that they 'snapped themselves out of it' and others can do the same :rolleyes: can start to believe that they should spread the gospel that drugs are bad and you can 'think yourself' better. A simplistic characterization of some, I know but it illustrates how it can come across! It is often the case that some of these people have little understanding of the range and complexity of mental health diagnoses.
For example, there are many types of depression and many of those are self limiting. In other words congratulating yourself that you made yourself better is a misattribution. Other types of depression are not self limiting.
That would be a blanced opinion well accepted. However, the fact is that I do not know anyone recovered from depression by medication, and all I know recovered from depression said they had to change their mind to be recovered. Brain is the most plastic part of our body. It doesn not mean much that depressin can be seen in one's brain. it is not the matter if one's thought is simple or complex. "another" type depression patient would be less than 1 % of whole depressed population. No another type is among my aquiretances yet. how to recover from depression and what to learrn form our experience, isnt it more imprtant?
Do you know someone recovered from depression by medications? I do not know even one such person. There cenrtaily be such difficult cases, but it is not common.
I know the topic touches a political correctness. I will not bring about this if this is not a Buddhist forum. but Buddhists can learn much from depressions. Isnt it? Buddhism is about sufferings. There must be as many biological depressive people in ancient India of Buddah's time as in our world, but Buddha did not mention to biological reasons.
Yes. I recovered from depression with the use of medications. Knowing some things about Buddhist practice helped. Trying to recover from real depression without medication is like trying to recover from diabetes without medication. Buddhist practice has its place and so does medication.
There are many types of depression. One simple division is between reactive depression and endogenous depression. There are also nine types listed by the latest version of DSM. This is the manual used by clinicians to aid diagnosis. The nine types are: Major depressive episode, Major depressive disorder, Bipolar I disorder, Bipolar II disorder, Cyclothymic disorder, Dysthymic disorder, Mixed episode, Manic episode, Hypomanic episode. It is therefore unhelpful to talk about 'depression' as if it were a single disorder.
It is also helpful to distinguish between 'low mood' and a clinical depressive episode. Often those who claim the greatest and quickest recovery where simply suffering from a self liniting period of 'low mood' which has been misdiagnosed. Many primary care physicians do not have the time to carry out a full mental health assessment and will label as 'depressed' anyone who complains of feeling low.
Some of these physicians will also overprescribe medication. This occurs partly because patients expect a prescription having been raised in a consumerist and medicalised world and partly because it is something that the physician can do when faced with a clearly miserable patient.
Unless you are in a very detailed discussion about one particular type of depression,
You can talk about ice cream without having to differentiate all of the different flavors. In the end, they are all still ice cream; they come from the same place.
just one last note, we are all the same.
It has been shown to be very possible for a person to affect their own neurophysiological substrate through meditative techniques, but this is possible to expect of only those who are able to muster the appropriate discipline and apply the appropriate techniques. I firmly believe that Buddhism teaches that persons who are suffering from illness, specifically the illness of lack of serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine in their neurological substrates, should seek the appropriate medical interventions, the same as a diabetic cannot be expected to generate insulin through meditative techniques or other mental techniques, and must obtain it and learn its proper use from medical practitioners.
It is only if the neurological substrate is functioning reasonably well that a person can perform the higher functions. The relationship in terms of cause-and-effect and what is referred to as "neurological substrate" and "mind" are only partially known, but it is known that they can affect each other's function.
If HH Dalai Lama gets sleep-deprived, sooner or later he will be unable to meditate and fall asleep while attempting to do so. If he gets even more sleep-deprived, he will begin to hallucinate.
There is fascinating work being done in the field of neuroimaging and the study of what is being called "neuroplasticity". One very good example of this can be found in the book "Destructive Emotions- How Can We Overcome Them?" authored jointly by HHDL and the psychologist Daniel Goleman. The work of Dr. Richard Davidson of the University of Wisconsin in neuroimaging and how it demonstrates neuroplasticity is especially well examined in this book.
IMHO it's impossible to posit a "mind" separate from The neurophysiological, psychological, social, cultural and historical substrate. It's these phenomena themselves that constitute what we refer to as "mind".
This is why i made my previous comments.
this is a bad example. so only partially true.
I guess we are all pretty much agreeing but just to make sure, here is a better example.
The machine produce it's own fuel.
But because we did not use it properly, we wire it in a way that now it create lots of unwanted effects like smoke and it produce very little fuel.
Not enough fuel to create enough power to actually re-wire the machine even if we wanted to.
This is the case of someone with a truly serious depression or mental condition.
Medicine is artificial fuel.
It clears the smoke artificially.
But it doesn't rewire the machine so it can start to produce it's own fuel again.
With meditation, or other type of cognitive restructuring, you can use the artificial fuel to rewire the brain. So it start producing it's own fuel again.
Without meditation, or other type of cognitive restructuring, you will have to use the artificial fuel forever, unless you get lucky and somehow you fix the machine purely by luck.
This is far different from just being sad.
At the end of the day the brain is an organ, and it is just a subject to illness or injury as any other organ.
I agree that one shouldn't rely on medication alone regardless of what the illness is. One should try to live in a healthy way physically, emotionaly, spiritually, and so on. However in some cases medical treatment is required to be a part of that healthy lifestyle though.
I dunno....I see it as sort of a "middle path".
One who I think does understand to some extent is Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche, as he suffered from an anxiety disorder as a child. I have found his book "The Joy of Living" to be pretty helpful.
That book is absolutely delightful- but thanks for the thought. I just wish that book had come 25 years sooner. Oh well.
The woman you were speaking with clearly overreacted. Regardless of whether people agree or not with what you say, there's no reason to take it so personally on her end.
That being said, I am a big proponent of the idea that our mindsets contribute hugely to our state of health. (How many jittery, nervous 100+ year olds have you ever met? They're all pretty calm.)
That being said, I just don't know if all forms of depression are fixable with a certain mindset. I have very close friends and family who swear by anti-depressants, and who say they simply would not function normally without them.
Just as no degree of a healthy mindset would cure someone who is insane, I would imagine that some forms of depression are the same way in that no amount of mental gymnastics can remedy it.
Perhaps you want to be careful not to draw conclusions too fast?
Like you pointed toward, you have very little knowledge of what a depression is, and what mental diseases are, so why draw any conclusion and not keep an open mind?
is walking around the city naked and losing your mind is insane enough to fit your description of insane? here's an interesting story for you to read:
I'm not sure what you are referring to. I barely drew any conclusions at all. The only thing that I was getting at was that not everything can be cured using your own mind. I know personally many people who only live normal, endurable lives because they are on depression medication. Not being able to possibly know how other peoples' minds function, it would be insulting of me to suggest to them that with the right mental concentration, they could overcome it.