Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Deluding myself by deluding others
I just had this thought, so I'm posting it to share my experience so I can see what some of your thoughts are on the matter.
I've given a lot of thought to the concept of mindfulness, and a fair amount of effort recently to start practicing being mindful during each day. Of course, effort does not always translate into results; however, therein lies the struggle. Meditation practice always helps, and I always find myself more collected and at peace with myself for some time after. This collectedness begins to fade after a while, but hey, that's why it's called practice; but anyway, back to the point.
Yet, no matter what state of consciousness I happen to be in, when I interact with people through conversation (or also rather frequently via texting :cool:), I lose my mindfulness almost immediately. To make it clearer, it's as if I become a deer-in-the-headlights when I find myself in a conversation I had not anticipated in advance. When I reflect on the conversation afterward, I really have no recollection of actually being present while it happened; looking back is almost like reading a short story of my experience from a 3rd-person perspective. The narrator in these stories is, as I see it, my deluded mind.
Delusion clouds my mind and prevents it from experiencing now-ness because it is so preoccupied with worrying about the reaction I might get from the person I'm conversing with, or some superficial ramifications of how that person might perceive me after having heard (or read) what I have to say. Because, in that moment of blindness, I'm so concerned with what others think, I don't let true speech flow from my mouth (or fingers), and I often hide my true intentions in something that I think they'll want to hear. In short, I end up deluding others almost every time I speak.
What I've concluded from this is that in doing so, I convince myself that my intentions have been fulfilled by my actions when really, all I've done is just fulfilled the other person's intentions. Thus, I've deluded myself by deluding someone else.
In order to be true to others, you must first be true to yourself. So I guess my question from all of this is how can I remember to be true to myself while trying to be true to others, or am I still thinking about it in the wrong way?
p.s., I hope this wasn't too abstract as to cause any headaches lol :scratch:
I've given a lot of thought to the concept of mindfulness, and a fair amount of effort recently to start practicing being mindful during each day. Of course, effort does not always translate into results; however, therein lies the struggle. Meditation practice always helps, and I always find myself more collected and at peace with myself for some time after. This collectedness begins to fade after a while, but hey, that's why it's called practice; but anyway, back to the point.
Yet, no matter what state of consciousness I happen to be in, when I interact with people through conversation (or also rather frequently via texting :cool:), I lose my mindfulness almost immediately. To make it clearer, it's as if I become a deer-in-the-headlights when I find myself in a conversation I had not anticipated in advance. When I reflect on the conversation afterward, I really have no recollection of actually being present while it happened; looking back is almost like reading a short story of my experience from a 3rd-person perspective. The narrator in these stories is, as I see it, my deluded mind.
Delusion clouds my mind and prevents it from experiencing now-ness because it is so preoccupied with worrying about the reaction I might get from the person I'm conversing with, or some superficial ramifications of how that person might perceive me after having heard (or read) what I have to say. Because, in that moment of blindness, I'm so concerned with what others think, I don't let true speech flow from my mouth (or fingers), and I often hide my true intentions in something that I think they'll want to hear. In short, I end up deluding others almost every time I speak.
What I've concluded from this is that in doing so, I convince myself that my intentions have been fulfilled by my actions when really, all I've done is just fulfilled the other person's intentions. Thus, I've deluded myself by deluding someone else.
In order to be true to others, you must first be true to yourself. So I guess my question from all of this is how can I remember to be true to myself while trying to be true to others, or am I still thinking about it in the wrong way?
p.s., I hope this wasn't too abstract as to cause any headaches lol :scratch:
0
Comments
I think I hear what you're saying. It sounds like you're experiencing a lapse in mindfulness as you interact with others. As though you forget who you actually are and simply regurgitate old patterns of your veil to fulfill (perhaps) the expectations you think others have of you?
First, a little side note, you cannot delude others. Their vision is based on their mindfulness, and not your false speaking. If you said a half truth to Buddha, would you cause his mind to be deluded? Of course not! What you're doing in that instance sounds more like simple wrong speech. There is a difference between being skillful in the way you interact with people and being heedless. Sometimes though, its better to speak in a way that is resonant with them, not you.
For instance, not simply blurting your perceptions, being intentional in the way you introduce your wisdom, so that they have a better chance of seeing what you're pointing at instead of just being wowed at the noble and wise mr. baseballbuddhist, but ultimately not being any better off.
When it comes to developing this skillfulness, its a matter of remaining mindful during the conversations.
My teacher used to say to me that our intent with meditation is to bring the awareness we experience on the mat into the everyday. That's the practice. We meditate and reach certain states of the whooha!, but ultimately when we stand from the cushion, our practice really begins. You may only hold it for a few seconds in the first conversation. This is normal, don't worry, and you're not doing something wrong. That is where the practice really begins, in holding the mindfulness as you begin to experience things other than the cushion against your butt and the soft air in your lungs.
You're very normal, and don't worry. Just continue to meditate, and the strength of your focus will increase as you step away from your mat and into the hubbub of the world. Don't compound it with deluded thinking that you're doing something exceptionally weird by being swept into the phenomena, whatever it is. Its ok, you'll improve with time and practice.
With warmth,
Matt
I have yet to read your words without finding insight.
I'm not sure if I'd describe my speech as heedless; in fact, I think it's almost to the other extreme, where I only tell people what they want to hear without being true to myself. Whether that's because I'm not entirely sure of where I am, or if it's because I lack the conviction or foundation to stick with who I am, I really can't say for sure. But like you said, it's almost as if I forget who I am and just react out of trained instinct without actually being present.
Nonetheless, I trust your wisdom over my own and will continue my practice with diligence. After all, Rome wasn't built in a day, and they had architects for that
so you are being true to your self.
you are conditioned to react in this way, when this situation present itself.
so you always react to the situation according to your conditioned self, like a good little robot
with more consistent practice, meditation and just being mindful of these kind of patterns in you, the absurdity of such habitual reactions will become more evident and the layers of conditioning will erode naturally.
if you don't create too much suffering, i believe you should just be patient and not force the changes too much. Practice and mindfulness is enough.
Baseballbuddhist,
When I was describing your heedlessness, I could have prefaced it by saying that when you're on the mat, you most certainly see the world and become resolved to work compassionately with humankind. Then, its not as though you lose all intention in the moment of connection with the other, but as patbb pointed out, the ego is what speaks for you, not the well rooted being that arises when meditating.
I called it "speaking from the veil" for a long time, as though I was obligated to keep this mask present so that others could keep seeing me in the way that I had been previously to them, when really I was a million miles away from them in both heart and mind.
With practice, the mask erodes and you see that being authentic with the situation is best. The mask is almost a baby version of letting go of yourself, so that when you communicate with others there isn't a solid self reference that you are comparing your words to... you simply say what is best in the situation.
Its like not needing others to speak English if you are in a foreign country... not thinking to yourself "man, here I am speaking spanish and my native language is english" but rather "I speak all languages, and now it is good to speak spanish, because they understand spanish" Does that make sense? When you are mindful, you can translate compassion into any language.
With warmth,
Matt
I like to think about it as such. It is disrespectful to the people I am interacting with, if I am not present when I have given my attention. If they want to have a conversation with themselves, why not just give them an Ouija board to play with?
I have this problem, and I only started to see it clearly simultaneously with the beginning of my meditation practice. Based on my experience and how things have changed for me, my advice is as follows:
First, try to give up your image management. Do you ever find yourself anticipating conversations and what you'd say? If you improve your mindfulness, you will be able to catch yourself early in doing so and let go of those self-generated fantasies that are surely one of the main causes of this problem. When you let yourself do this, you are building your ego; your false-self. (The same goes for recalling previous conversations and going over what they were like, and imagining what people might have thought about you, etc.) I have been mostly successful in becoming mindfully aware of these types of thoughts, in a short amount of time too, and it has reduced my social anxieties enormously, not to mention the many other benefits.
Nevertheless, I still have some trouble avoiding automatically falling into the non-mindful conversations with people. As was mentioned, don't be too hard on yourself as this is just your ego taking over; it's well practiced! As you increase your mindfulness practice, that ego will dissolve naturally and your mindful / in-the-now self will be present more and more.
I'm a total beginner, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but this is some of what I've learned about myself so far.