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I am not a therapist but I personally think that it is advisable to not go for drugs unless the case is sever that it affects your day to day life. .
Some people would be amazed to talk with someone who has had a case of depression so severe that it affected day to day life. Imagine wanting to consume a large amount of alcohol and sedatives and then going and lying down in the snow. Believe me, medications have their place. Meditation practice can be helpful in blunting some of the really bad symptoms, but for some people it really does get that bad.
I think that your attitude towards psychology and psychologists is clear in your post. I've said several times before that there is a role for both philosophies and that they can be complementary rather than competing.
There are good psychologists, bad psychologists and indifferent psychologists. There are also, as has been pointed out several times, buddhist psychologists, as well as psychologists with many other beliefs and philosophies. Your post seems to suggest some kind of bogey man psychologist striding through the world dishing out 'psychological wisdom', seducing people to the dark side which is diametrically opposed to dhamma and denigrating other philosophies and world views. This is a pity as it is very, very far from reality.
The best advice I can give you is to leave medical advice and the treatment of depression to those who know about these things.
Define 'affects your everyday life': do you mean frequent suicidal thoughts? self harm? an inability to socialise, get out of bed, get dressed? an inability to experience pleasure? breaking down at work? difficulty concentrating? a loss of interest in normal activities and hobbies? beliefs that your children, family, friends and colleagues would be better off without you? How often must these things occur to justify antidepressants? How severe must they be? How many of them should you have?
All depression affects everyday life - it is not the same as feeling sad or miserable. Its like the difference between having an aching thigh muscle and having a broken femur.
Depression looks so simple - bad thoughts? Change the thoughts! Just like all an anorexic needs to do is to eat healthily! In some cases, this is no better than saying 'pull yourself together!'
Walk a mile in that man's shoes before you criticise his gait.
All depression affects everyday life - it is not the same as feeling sad or miserable. Its like the difference between having an aching thigh muscle and having a broken femur.
I really enjoy this metaphor, and totally agree with you. As a corollary, I also think that too many people jump on the "depression" diagnoses, especially self-diagnosis... but when depression is present, it is not just being sad.
I have no interest in continuing this discussion with you.
beside saying that your previous post was off topic, and clarifying your misinterpretation of my post, there were no discussion with you to begin with...
There are good psychologists, bad psychologists and indifferent psychologists. There are also, as has been pointed out several times, buddhist psychologists, as well as psychologists with many other beliefs and philosophies.
clearly, from reading my posts carefully you should not have logically felt it was necessary to make such a statement. again, this is off subject.
You have an image in your mind of some kind of bogey man psychologist striding through the world dishing out 'psychological wisdom', seducing people to the dark side which is diametrically opposed to dhamma and denigrating other philosophies and world views. This is a pity as it is very, very far from reality.
clearly once again, my posts were directed at the field of psychology, the content of the theory and the practice as it is generally practiced.
As you can see I have edited my post. It is a pity that you were not able to read it before your post. I'm always looking for ways to improve my posts and frequently reflect on content and manner of communication. It makes for better relationships in my experience. I'm sorry that you experience my advice as 'patronising'. It is genuine advice and sincerely meant.
metta
Define 'affects your everyday life': do you mean frequent suicidal thoughts? self harm? an inability to socialise, get out of bed, get dressed? an inability to experience pleasure? a loss of sexual desire? breaking down at work? difficulty concentrating? a loss of interest in normal activities and hobbies? beliefs that your children, family, friends and colleagues would be better off without you? How often must these things occur to justify antidepressants? How severe must they be? How many of them should you have?
All depression affects everyday life - it is not the same as feeling sad or miserable. Its like the difference between having an aching thigh muscle and having a broken femur.
metta
Hold your breath Fran. I understand that medication has its place. I am not condemning the use of drugs. I am just saying that the use of anti-depressants has its own issues that you have to deal with eventually, in the long run. It's not like there is a magic pill out there. Once you are on drugs you need to keep increasing the dosage, changing the prescriptions, dealing with the side effects etc. When you get off the drugs you have to deal with the drug withdrawal issues, which are sometimes worse than the depression itself.
Which is why I said that in mild anxiety\depression cases it is always advisable to deal with it through CBT or therapy but I understand that it is not the patient's call and it depends on the situation. I do not disagree that some folks need medication to function properly in day to day life. Hope I've made myself clear
Depression looks so simple - bad thoughts? Change the thoughts! Just like all an anorexic needs to do is to eat healthily! In some cases, this is no better than saying 'pull yourself together!'
This is not CBT. This is what your grandma tells you when you look sad.
Depression looks so simple - bad thoughts? Change the thoughts! Just like all an anorexic needs to do is to eat healthily! In some cases, this is no better than saying 'pull yourself together!'
yes, this is why it is important to understand the mind and understand the causes of depression which are so deeply rooted so that we can help ourselves and not succumb to the temptation of fruitless superficial therapies which amount to little more than talking yourself (worse, having someone talk yourself) through a depression.
With knowledge of what is the path, what need to be done, one can actually walk the path, with or without drugs (depending on the necessity of it), and be capable of choosing a psychologist that can actually help him with this specific path.
this is why it is important to understand the mind and understand the causes of depression which are so deeply rooted so that we can help ourselves and not succumb to the temptation of fruitless superficial therapies
What do you mean by superficial therapies and what would be the ones that aren't superficial?
Buddhism, meditation with a course given by a qualified teacher (someone who experienced several thousand hours of meditation and developed wisdom from a Buddhist point of view, on top of having strong base in neurology or something like this...;))
CBT usually leaves a very bad taste in most people's mouths as it takes time to give results. I know people who have done CBT for many years without good enough results. Buddhist practice is possibly the most effective and positive remedy out there right now
CBT usually leaves a very bad taste in most people's mouths as it takes time to give results. I know people who have done CBT for many years without good enough results. Buddhist practice is possibly the most effective and positive remedy out there right now
Can you show us studies that show the efficacy of Buddhist practice as compared to the other attempted therapeutic interventions?
I would just go back to patbb's original post, in which she talked about the effects of meditation in these terms: If you keep practicing and changing your thought patterns (stop reacting with negativity to outside or inside events and feelings) your brain wiring will change permanently and so the brain activity and the production of hormones as well so you can keep being drug free.
I would just ask, where is the data to show that that really takes place? I mean, I myself have actually read some pretty good studies about meditation and neuroplasticity, and it does indeed show some promise. But to say "your brain wiring will change permanently and so the brain activity and the production of hormones as well so you can keep being drug free." is quite a stretch in terms of the actual information at hand. Beyond that, there is far too little information to show that anyone but experienced practitioners can actually get permanent benefit from meditation in the way patbb describes. There are preliminary studies with groups of non-monastics that are exciting to see, but these studies are preliminary and the subjects need to keep being followed for longer periods of time. It's far to early to say "your brain wiring will change permanently and so the brain activity and the production of hormones as well so you can keep being drug free."
So if you can direct us to studies that actually show that Buddhist practice is possibly the most effective and positive remedy out there right now, I'd really be interested in seeing that demonstrated. Otherwise it just comes from your own personal experience, and personal experience varies from person to person. The same would go for the statement that "CBT usually leaves a very bad taste in most people's mouths as it takes time to give results." There seems to be little to substantiate that except your own personal experience that says "I know people who have done CBT for many years without good enough results."
I'm just saying that if you're going to make statements like this, please substantiate them with information to show that they are something besides your own personal opinion or something that comes only from your own personal experience. This is far too critical a topic for people to make sweeping generalizations or represent their own opinions as fact.
Can you show us studies that show the efficacy of Buddhist practice as compared to the other attempted therapeutic interventions?
I would just go back to patbb's original post, in which she talked about the effects of meditation in these terms: If you keep practicing and changing your thought patterns (stop reacting with negativity to outside or inside events and feelings) your brain wiring will change permanently and so the brain activity and the production of hormones as well so you can keep being drug free.
I would just ask, where is the data to show that that really takes place? I mean, I myself have actually read some pretty good studies about meditation and neuroplasticity, and it does indeed show some promise. But to say "your brain wiring will change permanently and so the brain activity and the production of hormones as well so you can keep being drug free." is quite a stretch in terms of the actual information at hand. Beyond that, there is far too little information to show that anyone but experienced practitioners can actually get permanent benefit from meditation in the way patbb describes. There are preliminary studies with groups of non-monastics that are exciting to see, but these studies are preliminary and the subjects need to keep being followed for longer periods of time. It's far to early to say "your brain wiring will change permanently and so the brain activity and the production of hormones as well so you can keep being drug free."
So if you can direct us to studies that actually show that Buddhist practice is possibly the most effective and positive remedy out there right now, I'd really be interested in seeing that demonstrated. Otherwise it just comes from your own personal experience, and personal experience varies from person to person. The same would go for the statement that "CBT usually leaves a very bad taste in most people's mouths as it takes time to give results." There seems to be little to substantiate that except your own personal experience that says "I know people who have done CBT for many years without good enough results."
I'm just saying that if you're going to make statements like this, please substantiate them with information to show that they are something besides your own personal opinion or something that comes only from your own personal experience. This is far too critical a topic for people to make sweeping generalizations or represent their own opinions as fact.
well, perhaps look for MBCT on google.
there is a relatively new movement where the use of mindfulness meditation is used to threat such things as depressions...
it is now all over the place and it is a good beginning.
This is far too critical a topic for people to make sweeping generalizations or represent their own opinions as fact.
"People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts." Forgot who said this. :-)
Anyways, chill Sherry (that's my nickname for you, do you like it? If you don't I'll stop :-B), nobody is gonna take criticism of psychology in a religious forum by people who are not psychologists seriously.
Also, criticism of CBT is not really criticism of psychology. Everybody hates on CBT, just type 'CBT criticism' on google.
or just ask buddhist teachers how many have beat depression, anxiety, panic attacks, stress etc... with meditation and Buddhism.
Can I answer? I am not a buddhist teacher though. :P
I've been helped by both therapy and Buddhism. And I have been hindered by both therapy and Buddhism. The difference is that in Buddhism I had to take the blame for my own misunderstanding; in therapy, I just blamed it on someone else's incompetence (but it was well deserved). Then again if I had a Buddhist teacher that was actually a crook I could blame him as well. I guess what matters the most is whether or not the person helping you knows what they are doing or if you are in a 'blind leading the blind' situation.
or just ask buddhist teachers how many have beat depression, anxiety, panic attacks, stress etc... with meditation and Buddhism.
I'm just saying it's up to you to provide the substantiation if you're going to make authoritative-sounding statements. I'm not going to go chasing around the internet to prove your point for you.
If it's your opinion, just say it's your opinion. That's all I'm saying. I've read some pretty amazing things about meditation and neuroplasticity. But you represent it as though it's the Gospel according to... you.
Can you show us studies that show the efficacy of Buddhist practice as compared to the other attempted therapeutic interventions?
Please do your own research. Probably a Google search?? I am just talking from my own experience and that of the people I know. I don't have documented facts to back up my statements. :rolleyes:
I have been in numerous anxiety/depression support groups online and offline and from my personal experience, there are very few people who have got substantial help from CBT. I made that clear in my original post. Both CBT and drugs have their own issues. But of course help depends from person to person, depends on the situation and the severity level.
I'm just saying that if you're going to make statements like this, please substantiate them with information to show that they are something besides your own personal opinion or something that comes only from your own personal experience.
Wouldn't it be easier to assume that people probably are talking of their own experiences on a matter like this rather than from gathered research data without having them to say it explicitly? :-/
Wouldn't it be easier to assume that people probably are talking of their own experiences on a matter like this rather than from gathered research data without having them to say it explicitly? :-/
No. If someone makes a statement that sounds like a statement of general fact, then it reads like a statement of general fact. I think statements should specifically say "In my experience" or "In my opinion", or, if it's asserted as a fact, it needs to be supported with specific references. If you read this whole thread you'll see what I mean.
Exactly - same here. And the same applies to medication. All are potentially useful in dealing with depression. Personally, I've found Buddhism to be more helpful than therapy or medication, but that's just my experience. And that's not to say therapy and medication were useless - they got me through a very dark time in my life. But again times are dark, and Buddhism is holding me up better than either medication or therapy did before. Anecdotal, sure, but there sure seem to be a lot of anecdotes in this thread.
No. If someone makes a statement that sounds like a statement of general fact....
I understand that medication has its place. I am not condemning the use of drugs
I understand that it is not the patient's call and it depends on the situation
I do not disagree that some folks need medication to function properly in day to day life
I know people who have done CBT for many years
Buddhist practice is possibly the most effective
Does it sound like I'm speaking a proven, well documented fact or more like my personal opinion/experience?
Having said that, the ineffectiveness/effectiveness of CBT is well spoken of in the relevant forums and so are the eventual drawbacks of drugs. If you care to do your research you will find the evidence you are looking for. It is not practicable to always make comments with research papers and annual reports in your hand.
In case you are interested I recommend this. Despite the site name it actually has members suffering from all kinds of anxiety/depression conditions.
Personally, I've found Buddhism to be more helpful than therapy or medication, but that's just my experience. And that's not to say therapy and medication were useless
I have also been helped by medication, therapy (intensive psychodynamic >5years) and buddhist practice. Sherabdorje's posts are excellent - particularly post #65 & 70.
In addition, I refer all those interested to the article Prozac and the Enlightened Mind in Tricycle's archives online.
It is my experience that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Often those who have little knowledge of neuroscience and the research process are bowled over by a few preliminary studies. It is a little like a new buddhist rushing around 'evangelizing' everyone they meet. Every good neuroscientist is cautious regarding claims; and experienced buddhists, in my experience are usually not interested in gaining converts. They may share some wisdom if asked, but that is as far as it goes, without an explicit request for guidance, and even then, they confine theselves to their area of expertise. For example, the Dalai Llama regularly meets and takes advice from experts in a wide range of areas, including neuroscience. He has commented on overuse of prescription drugs and his sadness so that so many need them - but that is as far as he has gone. This shows great wisdom and understanding of the complexity of both neuroscience and human nature - something which is often lacking in the rest of us.
Once you are on drugs you need to keep increasing the dosage, changing the prescriptions, dealing with the side effects etc. When you get off the drugs you have to deal with the drug withdrawal issues, which are sometimes worse than the depression itself.
...............I do not disagree that some folks need medication to function properly in day to day life. Hope I've made myself clear
I completely agree. Every solution - other than the Buddhist - entails more suffering. I get that. I also have a serious heart condition so have an implanted defibrillator (ICD). This ICD saves my life, but with it come repeated surgeries, physical discomfort and a form of PTSD following shocks. Buddhist practice helps a great deal, but I am not yet so advanced that I don't have generalized anxiety disorder, panic attacks and nightmares. I am sincere in my belief however, that Buddhism has the key to the end of suffering. I'm not housebound, stilll working fulltime and not on disability as so many with ICDs and/or psychiatric disorders are, and that is partly due to Buddhist practice.
It is my experience that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Often those who have little knowledge of neuroscience and the research process are bowled over by a few preliminary studies. It is a little like a new buddhist rushing around 'evangelizing' everyone they meet. Every good neuroscientist is cautious regarding claims;
Seriously Fran, you cannot expect folks here to be experienced in neuroscience can you? The comments we give will be limited in professional capacity and more inclined towards personal experiences. When you need help you consult a professional not Buddhist forum members. Forum is for sharing experiences don't you think?
and experienced buddhists, in my experience are usually not interested in gaining converts. They may share some wisdom if asked, but that is as far as it goes, without an explicit request for guidance, and even then, they confine theselves to their area of expertise.
Not sure what this has got to do with the current topic in discussion
I completely agree. Every solution - other than the Buddhist - entails more suffering.
Not necessarily. You cannot deny that medication helps some people who are seriously handicapped. Drugs have their use and CBT has its use. Buddhist practice sounds more promising to me in the long run. Btw. that is just my personal opinion
I think most people (including a fair number here) confuse depression and sadness. "Situational depression" seems to me to be sadness. Everyone on earth experiences sadness. Sadness at the death of a loved one, sadness at the loss of a job, sadness when you listen to the endless stream of bad news on TV. But sadness and depression are *not* the same thing, any more than bicycles and motorcycles are the same thing. Sadness comes and goes. It is a normal human emotion. Depression is a set of clinical symptoms of an underlying disease. As with any disease, there are medications that can help - for some people, but not for others. As with any disease, there are almost always alternatives to pharmacological therapy that are often as or more effective than the chemicals. Just don't confuse sadness with depression.
I think most people (including a fair number here) confuse depression and sadness. "Situational depression" seems to me to be sadness.
i think the confusion is between depression, and major depressive disorder, where someone will sleep 20 hours out of 24, and be completely incapacitated.
everyone experienced depression, either in themselves or in the family, circle of friends. I don't think there can be much confusion with sadness or a temporary low period because of some bad events happened.
I'm not expecting anyone to give up to date information with all of the knowledge and nuances of a professional. However, when a member claims that 'you can rewire your brain' and as Sherabdorje summarised from patb's post 'If you keep practicing and changing your thought patterns (stop reacting with negativity to outside or inside events and feelings) your brain wiring will change permanently and so the brain activity and the production of hormones as well so you can keep being drug free'. Then it is pretty clear that they are not speaking from personal experience. They may have recovered and now be drug free - but that is as much as they know. If they claim more than that in terms of neurophysiological changes then they are more knowledgeable than the current, total, state of neuroscience!
If they had said, as mountains did, that they had managed to come off antidepressants and so far all was well. Or that Buddhist pracice was proving very helpful, as I have and Sherabdorje has, then that is a justifiable statement.
I know, from personal experience, and from feedback from others, that what is written in posts can have a dramatic and far reaching effect on beliefs and behaviour. This is why it is essential to be mindful and circumspect when posting about mental illness and its treatment. Many forums have a specific rule that one should not give medical advice or opinions. That is because posting or implying that you believe that person's diagnosis is wrong or that the treatment is wrong or unhelpful is potentially life threatening. This is no exaggeration when dealing with major psychiatric disorders such as depressive disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or anorexia nervosa, to name a few.
I'm passionate because I care - and I'm not suggesting that others don't by that statement. Ignorance can kill - the Buddha knew that - although in a slightly different context.
Comments
Some people would be amazed to talk with someone who has had a case of depression so severe that it affected day to day life. Imagine wanting to consume a large amount of alcohol and sedatives and then going and lying down in the snow. Believe me, medications have their place. Meditation practice can be helpful in blunting some of the really bad symptoms, but for some people it really does get that bad.
I think that your attitude towards psychology and psychologists is clear in your post. I've said several times before that there is a role for both philosophies and that they can be complementary rather than competing.
There are good psychologists, bad psychologists and indifferent psychologists. There are also, as has been pointed out several times, buddhist psychologists, as well as psychologists with many other beliefs and philosophies. Your post seems to suggest some kind of bogey man psychologist striding through the world dishing out 'psychological wisdom', seducing people to the dark side which is diametrically opposed to dhamma and denigrating other philosophies and world views. This is a pity as it is very, very far from reality.
The best advice I can give you is to leave medical advice and the treatment of depression to those who know about these things.
metta
Define 'affects your everyday life': do you mean frequent suicidal thoughts? self harm? an inability to socialise, get out of bed, get dressed? an inability to experience pleasure? breaking down at work? difficulty concentrating? a loss of interest in normal activities and hobbies? beliefs that your children, family, friends and colleagues would be better off without you? How often must these things occur to justify antidepressants? How severe must they be? How many of them should you have?
All depression affects everyday life - it is not the same as feeling sad or miserable. Its like the difference between having an aching thigh muscle and having a broken femur.
Depression looks so simple - bad thoughts? Change the thoughts! Just like all an anorexic needs to do is to eat healthily! In some cases, this is no better than saying 'pull yourself together!'
Walk a mile in that man's shoes before you criticise his gait.
I really enjoy this metaphor, and totally agree with you. As a corollary, I also think that too many people jump on the "depression" diagnoses, especially self-diagnosis... but when depression is present, it is not just being sad.
clearly once again, my posts were directed at the field of psychology, the content of the theory and the practice as it is generally practiced.
well it would help if you could counter any of the points i put forward and not counter arguments that never took place to begin with.
again, implying things that did not happen and putting ideas forward in patronizing ways...
just a blank statement based on what?
As you can see I have edited my post. It is a pity that you were not able to read it before your post. I'm always looking for ways to improve my posts and frequently reflect on content and manner of communication. It makes for better relationships in my experience. I'm sorry that you experience my advice as 'patronising'. It is genuine advice and sincerely meant.
metta
Hold your breath Fran. I understand that medication has its place. I am not condemning the use of drugs. I am just saying that the use of anti-depressants has its own issues that you have to deal with eventually, in the long run. It's not like there is a magic pill out there. Once you are on drugs you need to keep increasing the dosage, changing the prescriptions, dealing with the side effects etc. When you get off the drugs you have to deal with the drug withdrawal issues, which are sometimes worse than the depression itself.
Which is why I said that in mild anxiety\depression cases it is always advisable to deal with it through CBT or therapy but I understand that it is not the patient's call and it depends on the situation. I do not disagree that some folks need medication to function properly in day to day life. Hope I've made myself clear
This is not CBT. This is what your grandma tells you when you look sad.
With knowledge of what is the path, what need to be done, one can actually walk the path, with or without drugs (depending on the necessity of it), and be capable of choosing a psychologist that can actually help him with this specific path.
:rolleyes:
What do you mean by superficial therapies and what would be the ones that aren't superficial?
Can you show us studies that show the efficacy of Buddhist practice as compared to the other attempted therapeutic interventions?
I would just go back to patbb's original post, in which she talked about the effects of meditation in these terms: If you keep practicing and changing your thought patterns (stop reacting with negativity to outside or inside events and feelings) your brain wiring will change permanently and so the brain activity and the production of hormones as well so you can keep being drug free.
I would just ask, where is the data to show that that really takes place? I mean, I myself have actually read some pretty good studies about meditation and neuroplasticity, and it does indeed show some promise. But to say "your brain wiring will change permanently and so the brain activity and the production of hormones as well so you can keep being drug free." is quite a stretch in terms of the actual information at hand. Beyond that, there is far too little information to show that anyone but experienced practitioners can actually get permanent benefit from meditation in the way patbb describes. There are preliminary studies with groups of non-monastics that are exciting to see, but these studies are preliminary and the subjects need to keep being followed for longer periods of time. It's far to early to say "your brain wiring will change permanently and so the brain activity and the production of hormones as well so you can keep being drug free."
So if you can direct us to studies that actually show that Buddhist practice is possibly the most effective and positive remedy out there right now, I'd really be interested in seeing that demonstrated. Otherwise it just comes from your own personal experience, and personal experience varies from person to person. The same would go for the statement that "CBT usually leaves a very bad taste in most people's mouths as it takes time to give results." There seems to be little to substantiate that except your own personal experience that says "I know people who have done CBT for many years without good enough results."
I'm just saying that if you're going to make statements like this, please substantiate them with information to show that they are something besides your own personal opinion or something that comes only from your own personal experience. This is far too critical a topic for people to make sweeping generalizations or represent their own opinions as fact.
there is a relatively new movement where the use of mindfulness meditation is used to threat such things as depressions...
it is now all over the place and it is a good beginning.
here is an example:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/alternativemedicine/3568885/Try-Buddhism-on-prescription-to-tame-depression.html
but then again, they do not teach Buddhism, and the sessions are quite short; nonetheless, the results are quite impressive...
"People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts." Forgot who said this. :-)
Anyways, chill Sherry (that's my nickname for you, do you like it? If you don't I'll stop :-B), nobody is gonna take criticism of psychology in a religious forum by people who are not psychologists seriously.
Also, criticism of CBT is not really criticism of psychology. Everybody hates on CBT, just type 'CBT criticism' on google.
Can I answer? I am not a buddhist teacher though. :P
I've been helped by both therapy and Buddhism. And I have been hindered by both therapy and Buddhism. The difference is that in Buddhism I had to take the blame for my own misunderstanding; in therapy, I just blamed it on someone else's incompetence (but it was well deserved). Then again if I had a Buddhist teacher that was actually a crook I could blame him as well. I guess what matters the most is whether or not the person helping you knows what they are doing or if you are in a 'blind leading the blind' situation.
I'm just saying it's up to you to provide the substantiation if you're going to make authoritative-sounding statements. I'm not going to go chasing around the internet to prove your point for you.
If it's your opinion, just say it's your opinion. That's all I'm saying. I've read some pretty amazing things about meditation and neuroplasticity. But you represent it as though it's the Gospel according to... you.
Please do your own research. Probably a Google search?? I am just talking from my own experience and that of the people I know. I don't have documented facts to back up my statements. :rolleyes:
I have been in numerous anxiety/depression support groups online and offline and from my personal experience, there are very few people who have got substantial help from CBT. I made that clear in my original post. Both CBT and drugs have their own issues. But of course help depends from person to person, depends on the situation and the severity level.
Wouldn't it be easier to assume that people probably are talking of their own experiences on a matter like this rather than from gathered research data without having them to say it explicitly? :-/
No. If someone makes a statement that sounds like a statement of general fact, then it reads like a statement of general fact. I think statements should specifically say "In my experience" or "In my opinion", or, if it's asserted as a fact, it needs to be supported with specific references. If you read this whole thread you'll see what I mean.
Exactly - same here. And the same applies to medication. All are potentially useful in dealing with depression. Personally, I've found Buddhism to be more helpful than therapy or medication, but that's just my experience. And that's not to say therapy and medication were useless - they got me through a very dark time in my life. But again times are dark, and Buddhism is holding me up better than either medication or therapy did before. Anecdotal, sure, but there sure seem to be a lot of anecdotes in this thread.
Does it sound like I'm speaking a proven, well documented fact or more like my personal opinion/experience?
Having said that, the ineffectiveness/effectiveness of CBT is well spoken of in the relevant forums and so are the eventual drawbacks of drugs. If you care to do your research you will find the evidence you are looking for. It is not practicable to always make comments with research papers and annual reports in your hand.
In case you are interested I recommend this. Despite the site name it actually has members suffering from all kinds of anxiety/depression conditions.
Indeed
In addition, I refer all those interested to the article Prozac and the Enlightened Mind in Tricycle's archives online.
It is my experience that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Often those who have little knowledge of neuroscience and the research process are bowled over by a few preliminary studies. It is a little like a new buddhist rushing around 'evangelizing' everyone they meet. Every good neuroscientist is cautious regarding claims; and experienced buddhists, in my experience are usually not interested in gaining converts. They may share some wisdom if asked, but that is as far as it goes, without an explicit request for guidance, and even then, they confine theselves to their area of expertise. For example, the Dalai Llama regularly meets and takes advice from experts in a wide range of areas, including neuroscience. He has commented on overuse of prescription drugs and his sadness so that so many need them - but that is as far as he has gone. This shows great wisdom and understanding of the complexity of both neuroscience and human nature - something which is often lacking in the rest of us.
metta
I completely agree. Every solution - other than the Buddhist - entails more suffering. I get that. I also have a serious heart condition so have an implanted defibrillator (ICD). This ICD saves my life, but with it come repeated surgeries, physical discomfort and a form of PTSD following shocks. Buddhist practice helps a great deal, but I am not yet so advanced that I don't have generalized anxiety disorder, panic attacks and nightmares. I am sincere in my belief however, that Buddhism has the key to the end of suffering. I'm not housebound, stilll working fulltime and not on disability as so many with ICDs and/or psychiatric disorders are, and that is partly due to Buddhist practice.
metta
Seriously Fran, you cannot expect folks here to be experienced in neuroscience can you? The comments we give will be limited in professional capacity and more inclined towards personal experiences. When you need help you consult a professional not Buddhist forum members. Forum is for sharing experiences don't you think?
Not sure what this has got to do with the current topic in discussion
Not necessarily. You cannot deny that medication helps some people who are seriously handicapped. Drugs have their use and CBT has its use. Buddhist practice sounds more promising to me in the long run. Btw. that is just my personal opinion
Mtns
everyone experienced depression, either in themselves or in the family, circle of friends. I don't think there can be much confusion with sadness or a temporary low period because of some bad events happened.
Not to forget anxiety disorders which are often linked with depression mild or otherwise.
I'm not expecting anyone to give up to date information with all of the knowledge and nuances of a professional. However, when a member claims that 'you can rewire your brain' and as Sherabdorje summarised from patb's post 'If you keep practicing and changing your thought patterns (stop reacting with negativity to outside or inside events and feelings) your brain wiring will change permanently and so the brain activity and the production of hormones as well so you can keep being drug free'. Then it is pretty clear that they are not speaking from personal experience. They may have recovered and now be drug free - but that is as much as they know. If they claim more than that in terms of neurophysiological changes then they are more knowledgeable than the current, total, state of neuroscience!
If they had said, as mountains did, that they had managed to come off antidepressants and so far all was well. Or that Buddhist pracice was proving very helpful, as I have and Sherabdorje has, then that is a justifiable statement.
I know, from personal experience, and from feedback from others, that what is written in posts can have a dramatic and far reaching effect on beliefs and behaviour. This is why it is essential to be mindful and circumspect when posting about mental illness and its treatment. Many forums have a specific rule that one should not give medical advice or opinions. That is because posting or implying that you believe that person's diagnosis is wrong or that the treatment is wrong or unhelpful is potentially life threatening. This is no exaggeration when dealing with major psychiatric disorders such as depressive disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or anorexia nervosa, to name a few.
I'm passionate because I care - and I'm not suggesting that others don't by that statement. Ignorance can kill - the Buddha knew that - although in a slightly different context.
metta
Thank you! I needed that!