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Solitary v. group practice

DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
edited July 2010 in Philosophy
I have contact with other Buddhists and value that greatly, but mostly I am solitary practitioner. I find it distracting to meditate with other people, and find it much easier to maintain mindfulness when I'm by myself.

What's your preference?

Anti-social Porpoise:lol:
«1

Comments

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited June 2010
    Why not challenge yourself and invite distractions? Then practice letting go of them. :)
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    Why not challenge yourself and invite distractions? Then practice letting go of them. :)

    There no shortage of distractions.;)

    P
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2010
    And as you might have guessed I much prefer to go on retreats which are held in silence. ;-)

    P
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited June 2010
    I have found solitary practice is more useful for me as well. If you feel this way then stick with it.
  • edited June 2010
    porpoise wrote: »
    I have contact with other Buddhists and value that greatly, but mostly I am solitary practitioner. I find it distracting to meditate with other people, and find it much easier to maintain mindfulness when I'm by myself.

    What's your preference?

    Anti-social Porpoise:lol:

    Learning, contemplating, and meditating are the three skills that we have to employ as practitioners.
    For me learning, and contemplating are greatly enhanced by sangha.
    I usually do the meditating on my own.
    Sangha is important, you dont have to practice with them all the time but ones understanding of the teachings will be hugely enhanced by interacting with other practitioners and teachers.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited June 2010
    I found group practice to be extremely important. Sitting with a group of disciplined meditators helps you sit way beyond your limit. If you are sitting alone you are more likely to stay in your comfort zone, and walk away when you reach your limit. Maybe some people can go it alone, but I'm doubtful..
  • edited June 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    I found group practice to be extremely important. Sitting with a group of disciplined meditators helps you sit way beyond your limit. If you are sitting alone you are more likely to stay in your comfort zone, and walk away when you reach your limit. Maybe some people can go it alone, but I'm doubtful..

    This is a good point.
    Its like many other disciplines. The presence and influence of others can be a great motivator.
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited June 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    I found group practice to be extremely important. Sitting with a group of disciplined meditators helps you sit way beyond your limit. If you are sitting alone you are more likely to stay in your comfort zone, and walk away when you reach your limit.

    Yep sounds like good advice. At least till you are experienced
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited June 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    I found group practice to be extremely important. Sitting with a group of disciplined meditators helps you sit way beyond your limit. If you are sitting alone you are more likely to stay in your comfort zone, and walk away when you reach your limit. Maybe some people can go it alone, but I'm doubtful..
    yes it can be beneficial, but i believe it can become a very limiting crutch really easily.

    Just as someone will avoid groups because he believe the distractions would be detrimental, If you believe you cannot do it by yourself without the group, it is the exact same problem.

    It's good to do retreat sometimes, to learn that we can do it, we can sit for long periods of time, several times a day.

    It would seem that the middle way (at least a little bit with groups sometimes if you like to practice alone, and at least a little bit alone if you prefer to do with a group) would be the best practice.
  • edited June 2010
    Why one vs. the other? I meditate twice a day (mornings and nights) and then join my Sangha on sunday nights which is anywhere from 10 to 25 people.

    I find both practices complement each other very well both have different challenges, and different benefits to my effort in learning to be mindful and live in the present moment.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited June 2010
    patbb wrote: »
    yes it can be beneficial,.
    You think?
    patbb wrote: »
    but i believe it can become a very limiting crutch really easily.
    .
    Perhaps you should go tell monastics who live and practice in Sangha 24-7. Weaklings.

    You are that noble solitary elephant Pat, walking the path. May I sit at your knee?
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited June 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    You think?
    Perhaps you should go tell monastics who live and practice in Sangha 24-7. Weaklings.
    I said it was potentially limiting, because if you have to drive to the Sangha every times you want to meditate (which could be twice a day for most), then obviously most would not be able to find the time unless they live right next to the place.

    If you live in the sangha, I don't think this would be a problem.
    Beside, I don't believe that someone who live a monastic life always meditate with others, there must be time when they meditate by themselves, in their room, in the park etc...
    Richard H wrote: »
    You are that noble solitary elephant Pat, walking the path. May I sit at your knee?
    sure, you can come by and meditate with us, but there will be my wife, my dogs and my cat tho... not exactly solitary but whatever you want to call me i'm fine with it.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited June 2010
    patbb wrote: »
    I said it was potentially limiting, because if you have to drive to the Sangha every times you want to meditate (which could be twice a day for most), then obviously most would not be able to find the time unless they live right next to the place..
    Ah, sorry to misunderstand you. It sure looked like you meant limiting in terms of character strength with the reference to becoming crutch an so forth.
    patbb wrote: »
    sure, you can come by and meditate with us, but there will be my wife, my dogs and my cat tho... not exactly solitary but whatever you want to call me I'm fine with it.
    If you have a weiner dog , it's on.
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited June 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    If you have a weiner dog , it's on.
    i do.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited June 2010
    Dapple,
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    Sitting with a group of disciplined meditators helps you sit way beyond your limit. If you are sitting alone you are more likely to stay in your comfort zone, and walk away when you reach your limit. Maybe some people can go it alone, but I'm doubtful..

    That's a good point. Solitary practice does require quite a lot of self-discipline.

    P
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2010
    The presence and influence of others can be a great motivator.

    Yes, it can be, but does this make us dependent on other peoples' motivation?

    P
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited July 2010
    I sit with a group 2 - 3 times a week and alone the rest of the time. However, if the opportunity presented itself to sit with a group every day, I would sit with a group every day. I personally think that sitting with a group can be very beneficial and supportive to one's practice. But, not necessarily becoming dependent on other people, so to speak. I see sitting with a group as part of the act of "taking refuge in the 3 jewels", one of which is Sangha. As I see it, that group, is one of the Jewels of Buddhism, and a very valuable Jewel at that.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited July 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    I see sitting with a group as part of the act of "taking refuge in the 3 jewels", one of which is Sangha. As I see it, that group, is one of the Jewels of Buddhism, and a very valuable Jewel at that.
    Well said. No less value than Buddha and Dharma.
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited July 2010
    The third jewel is referred to the enlightened Buddhist disciples not the general sangha and the Buddhist practitioners. I think meditation is a very individual thing. Some people find it very distracting to sit in a group.
  • edited July 2010
    Deshy wrote: »
    The third jewel is referred to the enlightened Buddhist disciples not the general sangha and the Buddhist practitioners.
    I've been taught that the sangha jewel includes both.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    Dapple,
    The third jewel is Sangha, period. This is what I was taught by both Theravadin and Zen teachers, and what I took refuge in. It is the practice community, those you walk the path with. Those who are practicing the Buddha's way.
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    The third jewel is Sangha, period.

    wow OK. If you say so...
    Richard H wrote: »
    This is what I was taught by both Theravadin and Zen teachers

    Maybe there are people who have been instructed that the third jewel refers to the noble enlightened disciples not every ordained monk in a robe.

    I'm just saying. :cool:
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Non-ordained too.
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Who taught you that Deshy?
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited July 2010
    According to this article
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bullitt/bfaq.html#sangha

    the sangha is either the community of monastics, or the community of those who have attained the first step of awakening. That's something different from "practice community." So someone taking refuge may be taking refuge in a community that they are not actually a part of of.
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited July 2010
    The Buddhist sangha I have spoken to :crazy:
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    I found group practice to be extremely important. Sitting with a group of disciplined meditators helps you sit way beyond your limit. If you are sitting alone you are more likely to stay in your comfort zone, and walk away when you reach your limit. Maybe some people can go it alone, but I'm doubtful..

    For what it's worth, this was never a significant factor in sticking to the practice, in my case.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited July 2010
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    According to this article
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bullitt/bfaq.html#sangha

    the sangha is either the community of monastics, or the community of those who have attained the first step of awakening. That's something different from "practice community." So someone taking refuge may be taking refuge in a community that they are not actually a part of of.


    Luckily one of the groups I sit with has monks that sit with us too, so I'm covered! The rest of you guys are screwed, sorry! :p:p
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited July 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    Luckily one of the groups I sit with has monks that sit with us too, so I'm covered! The rest of you guys are screwed, sorry! :p:p
    :lol:
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited July 2010
    The Sangha

    The Sangha that a Buddhist takes refuge in is the community of Noble Ones who have led exemplary lives and attained extraordinary insight into the true nature of things. Their lives and achievements show others that it is possible to progress on the path to Enlightenment.

    However, the Sangha also generally refers to the fourfold community of monks, nuns, men and women lay followers.


    Thing is there are some folks in robes who are not worthy of being called a jewel :lol:
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Deshy wrote: »
    The Buddhist sangha I have spoken to :crazy:

    Wth happened to your face? 0.0
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Valtiel wrote: »
    Wth happened to your face? 0.0

    You wanna come down and fix it for me? HAHA :p
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited July 2010
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    According to this article
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bullitt/bfaq.html#sangha

    the sangha is either the community of monastics, or the community of those who have attained the first step of awakening. That's something different from "practice community." So someone taking refuge may be taking refuge in a community that they are not actually a part of of.

    This is not what I have been taught. Sangha are those who have taken refuge, ordained and lay, who are walking the path together. Level of attainment is not a factor, it includes all. I am sangha, My friends both lay and ordained are Sangha. No one is "outside". The outpatient model of Buddhist laity is Bullshit.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited July 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    For what it's worth, this was never a significant factor in sticking to the practice, in my case.
    Practicing alone would be easy for me if it meant being alone, like in a cabin or something. But practicing alone immersed in a culture that is built on consumption and dispersion is a different matter. I need to go against the flow shoulder to shoulder with friends.

    Every one is different, but those of us who take refuge in sangha benefit.
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Apart from the seemingly unpopular opinion that sangha (the third gem) is the community of Noble Ones, I have also been told that sangha are the ordained monks and nuns but never the lay followers.

    I think the sangha in the Buddha's days could have been the ones who were attained but since we cannot really differentiate in that way nowadays, taking that sangha means the buddhist disciples seems fine
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Don't get me wrong Deshy. Plenty of respect for your understanding of Sangha, and no doubt it is canonically correct in Theravada, but my view is not controversial with Thai Forest Friends both Lay and Ordained.

    Taking the precepts, Bodhisattva vows, and receiving a Dharma name in Zen surely makes you Sangha.


    These definitions don't count for much maybe except for the "in" vs. "out" mindset that can be seen in some Theravdin lay practitioners. They regard the monastics as the real deal, and they as just wannabes, second tier, or "that much" removed from the dharma. They can honor the Dharma but must defer to the monks who own it. This attitude may suit traditional monastic economies fine, but it has no basis is beyond that. It is social place knowing. Thats a judgment on my part, but I'll stand by it.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    Practicing alone would be easy for me if it meant being alone, like in a cabin or something. But practicing alone immersed in a culture that is built on consumption and dispersion is a different matter. I need to go against the flow shoulder to shoulder with friends.
    The important difference might be that I like to spend long periods in solitude anyway. Plus, no kids or related obligations.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    The third jewel is Sangha, period. This is what I was taught by both Theravadin and Zen teachers, and what I took refuge in. It is the practice community, those you walk the path with. Those who are practicing the Buddha's way.

    That's the way I look at it. Fellow Buddhists.

    P
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited July 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    The important difference might be that I like to spend long periods in solitude anyway. Plus, no kids or related obligations.

    Me too. :)

    P
  • edited July 2010
    I think it is a bit like working out in a gym versus working out at home.

    Both in the dojo and at the gym, you are part of a community that works towards the same goal. Many people find that beneficial and encouraging. Occasionally you even learn something new. Others are quite happy and capable of maintaining a solitary exercise or meditation regime. They prefer the privacy of their home.

    I think either is fine. It depends on what suits you better.

    I rarely join communities or retreats, mostly because they are geared to Thai people. There is the occasional merit ceremony (tambun), the occasional dhamma talk, and the occasional retreat.

    Cheers, Thomas
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    This attitude may suit traditional monastic economies fine, but it has no basis is beyond that.

    i agree with you here. As I said, the third gem could have possibly been referred to the Buddha's disciples like sariputta, moggallana (the enlightened ones) during his days but since we cannot make such a differentiation based on the level of attainments nowadays, it makes sense to consider the entire community of Buddhist monks and lay followers as sangha if one feels so. There are also certain communities who differentiate the two as sangha and lay followers... It really is not that big of a deal anyway :)
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited July 2010
    It makes more sense to me to consider the Sangha as the community. When you look at the higher order of monks, you bow to them because they represent the three jewels, not because they are one of them.

    Really though, having a community of support that sees the notions of the Dharma and the Buddha is a jewel, expressly defined or not. We have the opportunity to support others who are in need, and be supported by others when we are in need.
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited July 2010
    If one definition of Sangha is any monastic and another definition is any Ariyan then why not take refuge in the Ariyan monastics? That way you can't lose!
  • edited July 2010
    Group practice is good for listening. The sangha can be this forum if im listening. Contemplating what i've heard usually i do in seclusion. Meditation i do is shamatha
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited July 2010
    The sangha can be this forum if im listening.
    Are you listening? You charged in here like a bull in a china shop, giving your opinion on as many threads as possible. If you are just here to pontificate, it will probably won't go over well.
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    Are you listening? You charged in here like a bull in a china shop, giving your opinion on as many threads as possible. If you are just here to pontificate, it will probably won't go over well.

    :confused::confused:

    What's going on?
  • edited July 2010
    lol. Im not really giving my oppinion , i don't have any real views profound enough to wow anyone. The scholars of buddhism are the ones with the views. I am simply a conduit of what is already said. Buddhism has been convoluted through many twists of the intellect. Zen is a faction that is trying to help however having reviewed most schools i am thouroughly convinced of madhyamaka. If i was aiming to be impressive i would post like a guru (which i am not!) int he beginner forums.

    Peace.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited July 2010
    lol. Im not really giving my oppinion , i don't have any real views profound enough to wow anyone. The scholars of buddhism are the ones with the views. I am simply a conduit of what is already said. Buddhism has been convoluted through many twists of the intellect. Zen is a faction that is trying to help however having reviewed most schools i am thouroughly convinced of madhyamaka. If i was aiming to be impressive i would post like a guru (which i am not!) int he beginner forums.

    Peace.
    Nice to meet you. It is a Sangha here, and has been valuable for practice. I have learned alot, especially about my own pretenses. It also has been made pretty clear that there is not one true approach to the Dharma. There are many people at different places. There is plenty of insight and experience.
    :)
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    It also has been made pretty clear that there is not one true approach to the Dharma. There are many people at different places. There is plenty of insight and experience.
    :)

    Very true.:)

    P
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