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Buddhist Without A Teacher

edited July 2010 in Buddhism Basics
Is it possible to be buddhist without a teacher? I live in the Bronx so thats NY for those unfamiliar. I don't have a car or much money. Do I need a teacher or can I just learn by myself? I am looking to study Soto Zen to be specific. Thanks in advance.
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Comments

  • edited July 2010
    Zen really isn't like any other form of Buddhism. It isn't about a textual or written tradition that is passed down and preserved, but a person-to-person transmission of the true Dharma that stands before our very eyes. One can learn how to practice Zazen, of koans (not Soto, but still...), or other aspects of Zen on their own... but true practice requires the help of a Zen Master to show you.

    In any other case, for any other tradition, I would say "you only need a teacher if you need a teacher", but for Zen I say "you need a teacher".
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited July 2010
    who can teach you...? You just got to make do of what stears you? no?


    I recommend pema chodron teachings if nothing else? fierce or what?
  • edited July 2010
    Can you help me find a teacher with a rate that I can actually afford?
    Some text that I can read on my own preferably for free or affordable?
    Learning until the point where I must obtain a teacher?
  • edited July 2010
    There are a lot of places that you can find information on Zen on the internet for free. A random search brought up http://www.zenguide.com which may be helpful. You might try http://www.buddhanet.net and see if they have a Zen section (they should, if they're complete).
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited July 2010
    You might find this helpful while you search for a nearby brick-n-mortar sangha: http://www.treeleaf.org/aboutus.html
  • edited July 2010
    Thank you all from what I have read to truly be a Zen buddhist you need a teacher so assitance in finding a teacher please.
  • edited July 2010
    The general location where you wish to find a teacher would be a necessity for anyone who may be able to help.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Try a search on google with "Zen Monastery" and your zip code.
  • edited July 2010
    By the way there is a "Zen Organization" search on that one site I found, which is at http://www.zenguide.com/organizations/. That and Google are both possibilities.
  • edited July 2010
    I'm looking for a teacher in Bronx,NY preferably because manhattan is pretty far
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Just do what aMatt said. That's all we'd be able to do for you. You'll have to contact the centres and get more information, introduce yourself, maybe arrange to meet with someone in-person.

    And really, take a look at the link I provided... it's an online zen sangha, with teachers you can communicate with, a forum, etc...
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Teachers, at best, can only show us what we need to do. The practice remains the same whether or not we have a teacher available.

    "The Buddhas can only point the way. You yourself must walk the Path."
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited July 2010
    CuzzinVon wrote: »
    Can you help me find a teacher with a rate that I can actually afford?
    Some text that I can read on my own preferably for free or affordable?
    Learning until the point where I must obtain a teacher?

    I know you prefer Zen but this is a really great website, especially if you are interested in textual studies: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/begin.html
  • edited July 2010
    I've tried google and my area code and the only one i've found is 1200 a year which is out of my price range. So on the note of Guy C is it not possible to do it myself as the buddha did himself?
  • edited July 2010
    If you wish to do it yourself, I would more recommend one of the other traditions that contain all that needs to be known in the texts (helpful for a teacher to make sure you understand those texts rightly, but not always necessary).
  • edited July 2010
    What other traditions do you recommend? I am also a Reform Jew I'm not looking for a sole religion but a philosophy to bring me understanding.
  • edited July 2010
    Better than suggestions from me on specific traditions would be to do some research on the different types through internet sites such as http://www.buddhanet.net. Each tradition speaks to a certain type of individual more than the others, and so one may seem "just right" for you and also allow you to practice without a teacher (if that's the only way you can).

    It's unfortunate that having a Zen teacher costs money, or else I would say your first choice was probably a great one (since you did choose it first).
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited July 2010
    So on the note of Guy C is it not possible to do it myself as the buddha did himself?

    The following is my opinion and others on this site may (probably will) disagree with me:

    Depending on our "Paramis" (perfections) we may or may not be able to practice on our own. The Buddha was believed (by some Buddhists, not all) to have developed his Paramis over many lifetimes prior to becoming the Buddha.

    For those who have highly developed paramis they may be able to make progress by themselves, but many of us may feel we need the support of a flesh and blood community of practitioners in order to keep on track. I personally don't believe there is an absolute right or wrong approach in this regard, I believe it is up to each of us to know our own capabilities and limitations and work with them.

    I believe that we all have the capacity to become fully Enlightened in this lifetime, but what we need to support ourselves as we walk the Path may be different for each of us, depending on where we are starting from. So there is not, in my opinion, a black and white answer.

    Personally, I reached a point after studying, keeping the precepts and meditating on my own where I decided I had reached a plateau and needed to come in contact with other practitioners to make further progress. Whether or not this is an imagined limitation or something real, I don't know. As I continue to practice I seem to go in phases where I am okay by myself for a while and then phases where I like to practice with others.

    I recommend trying both (if there are any Dhamma centers nearby where you can attend for free) and see what works for you.

    The best measure (over a long period of time, not from day to day or week to week) is to ask yourself and also people who you trust: "Am I increasing in wholesome qualities and decreasing in unwholesome qualities?" and if both yourself and others agree that the answer is "yes" then you are on the right track.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited July 2010
    The teacher in Zen calls you out on your games. Doing Zazen in a strong group is more powerful than doing it alone. Group discipline helps you practice through states that every impulse wants to reject. So it is a steep and sharp approach.

    The teacher in Theravada (Thai Forest) is an inspiring friend and example of mature practice. They want nothing from you (except a meal), and group sittings are not regimented, which is suited for people with plenty of self discipline. Theravada is a warmer, gentler, less intense approach.
  • johnathanjohnathan Canada Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Valtiel wrote: »
    You might find this helpful while you search for a nearby brick-n-mortar sangha: http://www.treeleaf.org/aboutus.html

    Thanks Valtiel... I feel Thai Forest is closer to my liking but Zen also interests me alot... Some friends and I work on Koans quite a bit and I think I'll check this site out to get some guidance to working on Koans from a Teacher...

    Thanks again...
  • thickpaperthickpaper Veteran
    edited July 2010
    CuzzinVon wrote: »
    Is it possible to be buddhist without a teacher

    Absolutely, understand and implement The Four Noble Truths into your life.
  • edited July 2010
    CuzzinVon wrote: »
    What other traditions do you recommend? I am also a Reform Jew I'm not looking for a sole religion but a philosophy to bring me understanding.

    Try Any of Thich Nhat Hanh books he is an 84 year old Vietnamese Zen monk and has published over 70 books. They are a great for today's contemporary world and he in fact encourages you to follow mindfulness and the teachings of the Buddha, but at the same time to stay within your own Roots as a Jew, Christian etc.

    He is very accessible via the internet, and\or your local library.

    His writings are unique in that they are very easily understood and not traditional Zen, or any particular school of Buddhism. Yet if you read him and later on read The Sutras you'll realize just how much he does teach from the direct Buddhist texts...

    Best of luck.
    ivan
  • TreeLuvr87TreeLuvr87 Veteran
    edited July 2010
    CuzzinVon wrote: »
    What other traditions do you recommend? I am also a Reform Jew I'm not looking for a sole religion but a philosophy to bring me understanding.

    If you aren't looking for a sole religion, then you don't even need to focus specifically on one tradition. I read and listen to teachings from all different traditions and take what I can from each of them. A person's personal philosophy can come from a wide array of different philosophies. Try not to think in all-or-nothing terms and just be open to keep learning.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited July 2010
    CuzzinVon wrote: »
    Thank you all from what I have read to truly be a Zen buddhist you need a teacher so assistance in finding a teacher please.

    A human teacher is very beneficial. However, in Zen practice and study, Zazen is the real teacher.

    "Zazen is the ultimate practice. This is indeed the True Self. The Buddhadharma is not to be sought outside of this." ~Dogen Zenji

    Although it is very beneficial to one's practice to have a human teacher. I think it is incorrect to say that you need one in order to truly be a Zen Buddhist. In order to truly be a zen Buddhist, all one has to do is practice Zazen.
  • edited July 2010
    Just my opinion,
    It should be said that "Zazen" is ONE of many ultimate practice in Buddhism. In this way, you are not place in the position on contempt of your Buddha dharma.
    Om Mani Padme Hum
  • edited July 2010
    Teachers are very important.
    Would you learn to practice medicine without teachers?
    Could you teach yourself Brazilian Jiu Jitsu from books?
    Of course not, and Buddhism is no different. There is a lot that can be missed or misinterpreted if we go it alone for too long. If we really want to fully understand and maximize our potential through the teachings of Buddhism we are all going to need to rely on a teacher or teachers at some point.
  • edited July 2010
    TreeLuvr87 wrote: »
    If you aren't looking for a sole religion, then you don't even need to focus specifically on one tradition. I read and listen to teachings from all different traditions and take what I can from each of them. A person's personal philosophy can come from a wide array of different philosophies. Try not to think in all-or-nothing terms and just be open to keep learning.
    Without a sole tradition will I truly be considered buddhist?
  • edited July 2010
    CuzzinVon wrote: »
    Without a sole tradition will I truly be considered buddhist?
    There is no rush to choose one tradition over another.
    You can be a Buddhist while you are figuring it out. Its wise to take your time deciding which path works best for you.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited July 2010
    What matters is how you relate to life, not how people consider you. The people whose opinions you should value would not consider you either Buddhist or not Buddhist.

    If you explore the local Buddhist temples in the Bronx, I'm sure you'll find something that feels right.

    Good luck!

    Matt
  • edited July 2010
    The internet has great source of knowledge that having a teacher isn't that important.

    You should realise that you are the one that teach yourself and the teacher is just the one that shows you the way.
  • TreeLuvr87TreeLuvr87 Veteran
    edited July 2010
    CuzzinVon wrote: »
    Without a sole tradition will I truly be considered buddhist?


    It's not important to put a label on yourself. You can know who you are by looking within, not by looking outwardly to find a specific word to describe yourself. You already feel your nature, but it's hard to tune into it when we're expected to identify with one or another. Let go of the all-or-nothing thinking and you will find peace.
  • edited July 2010
    Thank you all I'm going to make a trip to the local library and get some books any suggestions? I also will use some of the links provided are there anymore you can give me? I will take it one step at a time and not just jump in and obtain a teacher when I need deeper clarification that I didn't find through meditation.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited July 2010
    You don't need a teacher, but progress is much faster and more complete if you practice with some guidance.
  • edited July 2010
    I have lifetime to progress the way I see it and will get a teacher when I am in a better financial situation and probably in a different state.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited July 2010
    That's a reasonable position. I did the same thing, for years. It's worth noting, though, that I progressed much faster once I actually met my teacher and got some feedback from him. (As opposed to just doing the meditations in his book.)
  • edited July 2010
    Well my situation won't be forever and agree that a teacher would be valuable but I simply can not attain that as of now but plan to.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Yep, I don't want to argue about it. It's a sensible thing to do in some cases.
  • edited July 2010
    I find most cases it is sensible because a lot of things I have learned I need to redo because I missed crucial things that with a teacher I would have learned but other times my learning was solid.
  • skullchinskullchin Veteran
    edited July 2010
    CuzzinVon, "not jumping in" is very wise of you at this point. I've been tip-toeing into Zen for two years now :) But still have found it to be enormously beneficial.

    Quick Google of "bronx zen center"
    http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&q=bronx+zen+center&fb=1&gl=us&hq=zen+center&hnear=Bronx,+New+York&view=text&ei=e98sTOXvFtefnwflj-X0Ag&ved=0CCcQtQMwAA&z=10
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Disney wrote: »
    Just my opinion,
    It should be said that "Zazen" is ONE of many ultimate practice in Buddhism. In this way, you are not place in the position on contempt of your Buddha dharma.
    Om Mani Padme Hum

    I would agree. :) But since the OP expressed interest in Soto Zen and Dogen is one of the founders of Soto Zen tradition, I figured I would mention what he had to say. :) Certinly not the only practice in all of Buddhism :) However, I am betting that Dogen's definition of Zazen is quite different than most people's definition of it. I would bet that his definition of Zazen is really nothing other than emptiness or Buddahood itself. That is the thing about Zen teachers, they say one thing, but they usually mean something quite different. Which is why they always say such crazy things LOL
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited July 2010
    skullchin wrote: »
    I've been tip-toeing
    That could be why it hasn't been very beneficial.
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Hi Richard,

    He was actually saying the opposite.
    skullchin wrote: »
    I've been tip-toeing into Zen for two years now :) But still have found it to be enormously beneficial.

    When I first skimmed over it I read it the same way you did. I think it is the word "but..." which throws us off the scent, we think he's going in one direction and so we interpret the rest of the sentence accordingly.

    But still fascinating how the mind works :)

    With Metta,

    Guy
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited July 2010
    GuyC wrote: »
    But still fascinating how the mind works

    Doh. Especially a stubborm mind pre-loaded with so many opinions. Like this one. :buck:
  • skullchinskullchin Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Perhaps you didn't want Cuz to take things to slowly either ;)
  • lightwithinlightwithin Veteran
    edited July 2010
    I don't have access to a teacher myself and this thread can both give me hope and despair about that fact. Some replies stress the importance of a teacher, while others say it's fine to be on your own. I would like to think a teacher is not a MUST in order to progress, so I will stick it out on my own for now (cause I have no other choice at the moment), but I think I would like some feedback and contact with other like minded people in the future if at all possible.
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited July 2010
    I don't have access to a teacher myself and this thread can both give me hope and despair about that fact. Some replies stress the importance of a teacher, while others say it's fine to be on your own.
    None of us actually know you well enough to tell you whether you need a teacher or not. And none of us actually knows whether people who study alone are generally successful or not. The only people we can observe are the ones that regularly show up in places where we show up. In other words, only Buddhists who attend some sort of group can observe other Buddhists, and only Buddhists who attend some sort of group can be observed. This creates what is known in statistics as a sampling bias.

    When someone says that you must do X, Y, and Z, I take that to mean that _they_ must do X, Y, and Z. It tells me something about person making the statement, but it may not tell me anything about people in general. It may be helpful information for me, but it doesn't necessarily follow that I need the same things that another person needs.

    In the Buddha's time, and for centuries afterwards, the only way to study Buddhism seriously was to join a monastery. Nowadays, teachers can teach through books and videos and online communication. Face to face communication is no longer the only way of learning. Take advantage of whatever is available and don't lose heart. :-)
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited July 2010
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    none of us actually knows whether people who study alone are generally successful or not. The only people we can observe are the ones that regularly show up in places where we show up.
    This makes the assumption that you can only know other Buddhists through group activity. There are people we can know through that and there are people we can know who are not participating in group activity at all, but are nonetheless friends. We can know plenty of people like that. We can know how they are doing, and what kind of issues come up. We can't say whether lightwithin would do well with a teacher or not.
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    This makes the assumption that you can only know other Buddhists through group activity. There are people we can know through that and there are people we can know who are not participating in group activity at all, but are nonetheless friends. We can know plenty of people like that. We can know how they are doing, and what kind of issues come up.
    I've known people like that, and they didn't talk much about their practice. If they had felt a need or desire to talk about what they were doing, they would have joined a group. Of course, any group of people I know is a biased sample. :-)
    Richard H wrote: »
    We can't say whether lightwithin would do well with a teacher or not.
    Thank you. :-)

    At one time, the only way to seriously study Buddhism was face to face with a monk who had a limited amount of time and tended to focus his efforts on fellow monks. Nowadays a teacher has many other ways of communicating. Humans are social animals and most of us do better in groups, but I wouldn't despair if I couldn't get face time with a teacher.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited July 2010
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    I've known people like that, and they didn't talk much about their practice. If they had felt a need or desire to talk about what they were doing, they would have joined a group. Of course, any group of people I know is a biased sample. :-).
    I have had a different experience. Some are happy to talk, others are happy to say why they don't talk. Those who are unhappy to say why they don't talk usually get the message across that they need to shelter their practice from doubt.
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