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Those who are unhappy to say why they don't talk usually get the message across that they need to shelter their practice from doubt.
Then I guess we have had different experiences.
Just to reiterate my previous point; while most people do better with groups, not being able to find a group or a teacher isn't reason to despair. There's a lot more available to the solitary Buddhist than was available two millennia ago.
Just to reiterate my previous point; while most people do better with groups, not being able to find a group or a teacher isn't reason to despair. There's a lot more available to the solitary Buddhist than was available two millennia ago.
No argument here, but without a doubt you are more susceptible to thinking you are a special case. It shows up on this forum from time to time.
Ahhhh. um. confused here. Ren, I was just saying that when we go it alone we don't have the grounding a teacher provides. It is common for people to have insights and get inflated because thet don't realize that it is ordinary.
Hehe, it sounds like "you" in your explanation was interpreted as Ren, not "one". Pretty funny stuff
WW,M
No! Not Ren. He/she is a pretty sober character.
Sorry Ren, much respect.
It is just that from time to time someone posts who has had an "enlightenment experience" and is thinking they are unique. There sound like they are on high that can really lead to trouble. I remember when first meeting our main teacher I projected like crazy onto him. It was all ego crap that came from having geniune insights go to the head. It is only now after many years that there is no projection going on. He helped get practice to that place of grounded sobriety by being a good teacher. If it wasn't for him maybe life would have kicked the shit out of me anyway.
But I am grateful for having someone like that around.
Richard, don't you think that some teachers are pretty unstable themselves? In that case how do we select a reliable person as a teacher and have full confidence and trust in them?
There are probably more poor teachers than good ones. We have to first look at lineage. Does the lineage have a healthy ethical reputation? Is the teacher's conduct mature?
Are there red flags..... like when the personality of the teacher outshines the Sangha? Do they have a hook.... do they want something? Are there games being played in the community?
Ren, I was just saying that when we go it alone we don't have the grounding a teacher provides. It is common for people to have insights and get inflated because thet don't realize that it is ordinary.
I agree with everything you say. But I think you're making the assumption that a teacher is the only source of that grounding. Or to say it another way, I think you're assuming that a teacher can only take one form.
There was someone that I studied with for a few years who made an effort dispel my illusions about myself. Eventually he succeeded, at least with the specific illusions he was addressing, but the most powerful lessons came from elsewhere, and the people involved didn't take the form that we recognize as "teacher".
When someone can't, for whatever reason, study with a teacher, I think it makes sense to encourage them to take advantage of whatever is available, rather than discouraging them by emphasizing the value of what they lack. The fact that you and I became arrogant, or inflated as you put it, doesn't mean that someone in Ecuador shouldn't do whatever they can to attain liberation. A person who gets a truly incurable case of kensho illness isn't going to benefit from a teacher, and everyone else comes around eventually.
The belief that a powerful insight makes you special, or the belief that the insight itself is unique. To me, it's not so much a pathology as a part of the process, because overcoming it makes us aware of our own natural tendency towards narcissism. In my limited experience, it becomes incurable only when a person who is already strongly narcissistic has a strongly felt experience which is then incorporated into the preexisting pathology. It's almost impossible for Narcissus to give up the belief that he is more enlightened than anyone else.
For everyone else, Life has a large collection of two-by-fours to be lovingly applied to the cranium of anyone who entertains the belief that they are something out of the ordinary. In fairness to Richard's point about teachers, those of us with a high degree of stubbornness can sometimes benefit from a little help in admitting that we have a headache.
I agree with Ren for the most part. There are so many online sources to learn dhamma and connect with Buddhist communities that not having a teacher is not an obstacle anymore. Everything comes down to the level of your understanding and practice so it's your own responsibility at the end of the day, even if you have a teacher
Maybe there is also the opposite of "kensho Illness"?. It looks something like this......
"I am not enlightened and most other Buddhists aren't either. The Buddha was Enlightened and there may be others out there, but Enlightenment is very special and I am not . Buddhism is a path that leads to a carrot no one ever reaches except in stores".
...this is a lot more common than people having narcissistic tendencies compounded by kensho.
"I am not enlightened and most other Buddhists aren't either. The Buddha was Enlightened and there may be others out there, but Enlightenment is very special and I am not . Buddhism is a path that leads to a carrot no one ever reaches except in stores".
...this is a lot more common than people having narcissistic tendencies compounded by kensho.
Is it? I've never doubted the possibility of liberation, so maybe I haven't taken other people's doubts seriously enough.
Is it? I've never doubted the possibility of liberation, so maybe I haven't taken other people's doubts seriously enough.
I have never doubted the possibility, but initially did not grasp (no pun intended) the immediacy of practice. Yes it is quite common, mainly in Theravadin circles. Not so in Zen.
I have found that a good teacher is one who can easily "pull the rug out from under you" and leave you sitting there going "Huh..."
I've told this story before but the best teaching I ever got was after succumbing to "kensho illness" (it wasn't a real kensho) during a retreat. On the last day the teacher called everyone to hear a talk. I was glowing and was sure the he could see it. I was even having fantasies of him proclaiming to everyone that he has found his Dharma heir. After we sat down asked us "Who is Avalokateshvara?" When I went to speak he just glared at me and screamed... YOU!! SHUT UP!!!.
I feel (my personal opinion) that those who think enlightenment is a carrot that you can never reach in this lifetime believe in the many lifetime model :buck:
Sorry no survey to cite. Just personal experience . This experience consists of being a regular "Facilitator" for the (Theravadin) Sangha coming on twenty years. This involves facilitating public sittings for both members and new people, leading discussions, conducting ritual and so forth. I have had a chance to hear many people some who come and go, some who have come and stayed. The view that Enlightenment is a special attainment beyond the ken of ordinary folk is pervasive, and it is why some people drop out. This is not true in Zen where attitudes are different.
So maybe I have my head up my butt on this..... but probably not. Still, no survey... so disregard.
I feel (my personal opinion) that those who think enlightenment is a carrot that you can never reach in this lifetime believe in the many lifetime model
I've told this story before but the best teaching I ever got was after succumbing to "kensho illness" (it wasn't a real kensho) during a retreat. On the last day the teacher called everyone to hear a talk. I was glowing and was sure the he could see it. I was even having fantasies of him proclaiming to everyone that he has found his Dharma heir. After we sat down asked us "Who is Avalokateshvara?" When I went to speak he just glared at me and screamed... YOU!! SHUT UP!!!.
"I am not enlightened and most other Buddhists aren't either. The Buddha was Enlightened and there may be others out there, but Enlightenment is very special and I am not . Buddhism is a path that leads to a carrot no one ever reaches except in stores".
...this is a lot more common than people having narcissistic tendencies compounded by kensho.
I agree with this being more common than kensho illness. I am one of those people who sometimes gets discouraged, thinking that I can't reach liberation or enlightenment in this lifetime, and since I don't lean towards believing in re-birth, I tend to feel hopeless and like there's no point trying, but luckily these feelings pass.
Comments
Just to reiterate my previous point; while most people do better with groups, not being able to find a group or a teacher isn't reason to despair. There's a lot more available to the solitary Buddhist than was available two millennia ago.
WW,M
:eek:
Sorry Ren, much respect.
It is just that from time to time someone posts who has had an "enlightenment experience" and is thinking they are unique. There sound like they are on high that can really lead to trouble. I remember when first meeting our main teacher I projected like crazy onto him. It was all ego crap that came from having geniune insights go to the head. It is only now after many years that there is no projection going on. He helped get practice to that place of grounded sobriety by being a good teacher. If it wasn't for him maybe life would have kicked the shit out of me anyway.
But I am grateful for having someone like that around.
That's settled then
Are there red flags..... like when the personality of the teacher outshines the Sangha? Do they have a hook.... do they want something? Are there games being played in the community?
There was someone that I studied with for a few years who made an effort dispel my illusions about myself. Eventually he succeeded, at least with the specific illusions he was addressing, but the most powerful lessons came from elsewhere, and the people involved didn't take the form that we recognize as "teacher".
When someone can't, for whatever reason, study with a teacher, I think it makes sense to encourage them to take advantage of whatever is available, rather than discouraging them by emphasizing the value of what they lack. The fact that you and I became arrogant, or inflated as you put it, doesn't mean that someone in Ecuador shouldn't do whatever they can to attain liberation. A person who gets a truly incurable case of kensho illness isn't going to benefit from a teacher, and everyone else comes around eventually.
Yes Sir....Ma'am.:o
......and I hear what you are saying. Quite right.
For everyone else, Life has a large collection of two-by-fours to be lovingly applied to the cranium of anyone who entertains the belief that they are something out of the ordinary. In fairness to Richard's point about teachers, those of us with a high degree of stubbornness can sometimes benefit from a little help in admitting that we have a headache.
lol Some ambiguity here
I agree with Ren for the most part. There are so many online sources to learn dhamma and connect with Buddhist communities that not having a teacher is not an obstacle anymore. Everything comes down to the level of your understanding and practice so it's your own responsibility at the end of the day, even if you have a teacher
"I am not enlightened and most other Buddhists aren't either. The Buddha was Enlightened and there may be others out there, but Enlightenment is very special and I am not . Buddhism is a path that leads to a carrot no one ever reaches except in stores".
...this is a lot more common than people having narcissistic tendencies compounded by kensho.
Male. Determined to stay that way. :-)
Survey reports please?
I feel (my personal opinion) that those who think enlightenment is a carrot that you can never reach in this lifetime believe in the many lifetime model :buck:
So maybe I have my head up my butt on this..... but probably not. Still, no survey... so disregard.
Thats is part of it.
Have been doing some heavy reading for a research and this is the way I release my stress
That's a great story. Deserves repeating.
I agree with this being more common than kensho illness. I am one of those people who sometimes gets discouraged, thinking that I can't reach liberation or enlightenment in this lifetime, and since I don't lean towards believing in re-birth, I tend to feel hopeless and like there's no point trying, but luckily these feelings pass.