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killing insects

zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wasteland Veteran
edited September 2010 in Buddhism Basics
hello, i am new here. :) i will probably do an intro post sometime soon, but at the moment, i have something on my mind i would rather ask.
short history though: i've been studying nichiren buddhism (mostly through the SGI) for a few years now (3 or 4?), received my gohonzon nearly 2 years ago, have become an unaffiliated nichiren buddhist studying at home and have most recently become interested in tibetan buddhism.

trying to make positive changes in my life as of late. i've gone back to being a vegetarian and this prompted a feeling of disgust at killing insects in my apartment. it's summer now and i've been leaving the windows open, so of course i've had tons of opportunities to catch and release.

i've been doing quite well at this until today... i came home from a long day at work... tired... just about to check my emails when i realize... THERE ARE A MILLION LITTLE BABY SPIDERS ALL OVER MY ENTIRE APARTMENT! apparently, there was a spider's nest somewhere (or several?) that i did not know about.

(yes, i am exaggerating, a little)

so i tried the catch and release method for about 6 spiders, and i almost fell of my chair a few times... had a spider jump on me... and i probably should mention, i know they are small but i am EXTREMELY afraid of spiders. irrationally so. so, in the end, i ended up grabbing the vacuum...

and now i just feel terrible.

i know there is no way to erase the negative karma i have created.. but is there any way i could have avoided this situation? and is there any way i can possibly make up for this? my guess would be that there were at least 30-40 baby spiders. what would you have done? seriously, i know being a buddhist is not easy, but i just ended up sort of freaking out... sigh.
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Comments

  • GlowGlow Veteran
    edited July 2010
    lol. It happens to us all. Once, I was starled by a little harmless shield bug buzzing around my shirt and I reflexively squashed it. I felt bad afterward for killing something that was no real harm to me, but I forgave myself and made sure to try to be more mindful of insects later on. We're programmed to fear and attack things that may possibly be threats to us. In our early days, we didn't have the luxury of discriminating between a poisonous spider and a harmless one and so we instinctively will want to run or squash it.
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Hi Zombiegirl,

    Buy screens for your windows? Buy a fan instead? Take a cool shower when it gets hot out?

    Frankly, I would have grabbed the vacuum too. Having a house completely full of bugs and spiders and insects isn't exactly healthy. Don't get all worked up over it. But I would now try to prevent so many things from getting in the first place in the future. :P
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited July 2010
    what would you have done?
    I would freeze in terror for about 10 seconds and then I would make a run for the border. Then I would get someone else to kill the spiders, but I would probably be so freaked out so I wouldn't be able to sleep well for like a week. I am saying that I would do that because that actually happened to me, except it was a single spider, but it has huge and nasty. I am not afraid of the very small ones or the chubby hairy ones, but the big legged ones with a small body scare me like hell. :P
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited July 2010
    You are insane, the chubby hairy ones are the worst.

    You actually bolted for the border? :P xD
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited July 2010
    You actually bolted for the border? :P xD
    Well, I got out of the apartment. :P
    the chubby hairy ones are the worst.

    Well they aren't very poisonous apparently. Here we get those brazilian wandering spiders. Uhhh...they are the worst and they jump and threaten you with their long scary legs! :~~(
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    edited July 2010
    i have screens! it was honestly quite a surprise to me. but then again... my apartment is quite old, i wouldn't say it's exactly air tight or anything, heh. i did notice when i was cleaning today that one of the screws on a screen had become unhooked so there was a slight gap... that's my best explanation for how this all came about. but thank you, that was an excellent suggestion. prevention is probably my best bet.

    thank you for the support though guys. i'm just going to have to make sure this never happens again.
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    edited July 2010
    NamelessRiver wrote: »
    I am not afraid of the very small ones or the chubby hairy ones, but the big legged ones with a small body scare me like hell. :P

    lmao. those are usually the type that are completely harmless to you, haha. i'm the opposite btw. i have no idea what type of spiders these were going to be though, they were just tiny and green. really, i didn't quite lose it until my roommate texted me back saying, "kill them! little spiders grow up to be giant spiders!" she's already convinced that all the bugs i let outside just keep coming right back in, lol.
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited July 2010
    She's probably right.
    Well they aren't very poisonous apparently.

    Yeah but they're hairy. :x That's worse.
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Yeah but they're hairy. :x That's worse.

    Hahahahahah. x-D
  • DisneyDisney
    edited July 2010
    IMO, meditate, observe vegetarian throughout your whole lifespan and vow for future lifespan as well, as well as contribute to life liberation like release crab, fishes for freedom, dedicate your merits to all of them :D you could rest when you feel tire. Alternatively, as and when the spider crawls onto you, gentlely hold onto her and recite triple refuge before releasing back to nature. Amitabha
  • VilhjalmrVilhjalmr
    edited July 2010
    Hi guys,

    Here are a few possibly enlightening links for you. Here is an article about consciousness in cockroaches, and here is an article about fruit flies having free will. I've always liked bugs, but these articles gave me a scientific basis for avoiding harming them. It seems that size isn't necessarily an indicator of awareness.

    Insects may seem gross or scary, but they are pretty fascinating and not (usually) out to get you!

    Hope this helps,

    --Vil
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited July 2010
    I remember reading in Lama Surya Das' "Awakening The Buddha Within" that intent has a LOT to do with this situation. Obviously your intent was not to kill the spiders as you caught and released several before your arachnophobia kicked in. So my guess is you haven't caused any long term damage to your karma.

    Respectfully,
    Raven
  • ZendoLord84ZendoLord84 Veteran
    edited July 2010
    I sometimes squash a bug too. I doesn't feel good. When it happens, i get the motivation to practise harder and avoid it. The more mindfull I am becoming, the less fear I feel for spiders. I would proberly kill a poiseness one it were suddenly close to me, we're gifted with these reflexes for a reason.

    it's difficult tough, and I don't always know how to deal with this.
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Valtiel wrote: »
    She's probably right.



    Yeah but they're hairy. :x That's worse.

    Yeah I know what you mean :lol:
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited July 2010
    zombiegirl wrote: »
    i know there is no way to erase the negative karma i have created.. but is there any way i could have avoided this situation? and is there any way i can possibly make up for this?
    What negative karma? Can you describe the negative consequences you expect to face, without resorting to Buddhist jargon?
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    edited July 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    What negative karma? Can you describe the negative consequences you expect to face, without resorting to Buddhist jargon?


    i'm not really sure what "without resorting to buddhist jargon" means? is the term "karma" the jargon in question? seems an odd question on a buddhist forum.

    and in response to your question: i don't know, how could i know what i would face? i just expect that in doing wrong, negative karma will follow. that is to say, a wrong cause gives root to a negative effect... even if that effect is nothing more than my disapproval/disappointment at my actions. i mean, it's not as if i'm EXPECTING to wake up the following morning with 50 spider bites on my body, eye for an eye style. :p

    i just quite simply felt bad and was wondering what other buddhists would have done in this situation.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited July 2010
    zombiegirl wrote: »
    i'm not really sure what "without resorting to buddhist jargon" means? is the term "karma" the jargon in question? seems an odd question on a buddhist forum.
    Yes, that's the jargon I was referring to. Who cares if it's odd? Isn't it interesting that you don't know the answer? What use is the concept, in that case? What role is it playing in your thinking? What is it keeping you from seeing?
    zombiegirl wrote: »
    i just quite simply felt bad and was wondering what other buddhists would have done in this situation.

    Ah, that's a much more precise question.
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    edited July 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    Yes, that's the jargon I was referring to. Who cares if it's odd? Isn't it interesting that you don't know the answer? What use is the concept, in that case? What role is it playing in your thinking? What is it keeping you from seeing?

    somehow, i had a feeling that a very thought provoking response was coming my way. so, i guess to this i will respond: uhhhhhh... i think i may have to get back to you on this as i'm feeling a little bit like you just blew my mind, haha.

    honest answer? i don't want the concept of karma to replace the concept of "sin" that i was brought up with. i don't want to restrain from doing something out of the simple knowledge that it is "wrong", although at times it does seem to be that way. perhaps i had rather thought that if i restrained, eventually, there would be no more restraint. it would just become a natural choice.

    is this thinking wrong? i don't know. what is it keeping me from seeing?
  • BaseballBuddhistBaseballBuddhist
    edited July 2010
    Vilhjalmr wrote: »
    Hi guys,

    Here are a few possibly enlightening links for you. Here is an article about consciousness in cockroaches, and here is an article about fruit flies having free will. I've always liked bugs, but these articles gave me a scientific basis for avoiding harming them. It seems that size isn't necessarily an indicator of awareness.

    Insects may seem gross or scary, but they are pretty fascinating and not (usually) out to get you!

    Hope this helps,

    --Vil

    I'd be interested to read more about the types of experiments and analysis they actually did with the fly experiment.

    <rant>< rant >
    That said, the article about consciousness in cockroaches seems to say nothing more than (paraphrasing) 'well we don't really know if they do or they don't, so why rule it out?' The conclusion that cockroaches have something that resembles a hippocampus (responsible for long-term memory storage and spatial navigation) frankly doesn't surprise me. You mean to say that insects have nerve cells that help them navigate? Come on mannnn... :banghead:
    < /rant >
    </rant>
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited July 2010
    zombiegirl wrote: »
    is this thinking wrong? i don't know. what is it keeping me from seeing?
    I don't know, but any time a concept becomes so self-referential that it can't be explained except in terms of itself, it's worth looking very closely at it, the thinking around it, and the provenance of that thinking, and the potential motives of the people promulgating it.
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited July 2010
    Its easy to catch spiders and other insects by putting a glass/clear plastic jar over the top of them and then very very gently sliding a piece of card under the jar - then upturn the jar with the card still over the opening and pop the spider (or other insect) outside.

    Easy peasy ! :)





    .
  • VilhjalmrVilhjalmr
    edited July 2010
    BaseballBuddhist wrote: »
    I'd be interested to read more about the types of experiments and analysis they actually did with the fly experiment.
    Me too. I'm glad you liked it; I thought no one was going to read them! I wish I could tell you more, but I don't know much else about it. I'll see what I can dig up.

    <rant>
    < rant >
    That said, the article about consciousness in cockroaches seems to say nothing more than (paraphrasing) 'well we don't really know if they do or they don't, so why rule it out?' The conclusion that cockroaches have something that resembles a hippocampus (responsible for long-term memory storage and spatial navigation) frankly doesn't surprise me. You mean to say that insects have nerve cells that help them navigate? Come on mannnn... :banghead:
    < /rant >
    </rant>
    :lol: Well, memory + free will seems like a good combination for consciousness to me.

    --Vil
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited July 2010
    Dazzle wrote: »
    Its easy to catch spiders and other insects by putting a glass/clear plastic jar over the top of them and then very very gently sliding a piece of card under the jar - then upturn the jar with the card still over the opening and pop the spider (or other insect) outside.

    Easy peasy ! :)





    .

    Or, if they are big enough, you can just pick them up and put them outside :eek::)


    ap_hissing_roach_080410_ssh1.jpg
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited July 2010
    Ahhww! cutie. :)







    .
  • birdshinebirdshine
    edited July 2010
    Does the body commit an immoral act when it destroys invading germs? If you have to kill them, kill them. However do not kill them out of contempt for them because to do so would be to fail to realize that you and the bugs are not separate entities but dualities of the same nature.
  • sukhitasukhita
    edited July 2010
    Sometimes killing insects is unavoidable. Like termites eating into the woodwork of our houses. It's an unpleasant thing to do... but at least do it without feelings of anger or aversion.
  • Love-N-PeaceLove-N-Peace Veteran
    edited August 2010
    You wimps! Spider's aren't scary. There was a huge spider in my room the other night and I just let him out of my window :) I only really put bugs out because 1. my home isn't theirs and 2. I wouldn't want to swallow him in my sleep. Did you know the average person swallows five spiders a year in their sleep?
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited August 2010
    I kill mosquitoes.

    I do not intentionally kill... Butterflies, flies, spiders, three toed sloths, lemurs, red squirrels, budgies, octopuses, Weiner dogs, schnauzers, millipedes, centipedes (though they creep me out), porpoises, guppies, daisies, bats, invasive Asian long horn beetles, dew worms (I move them from the sidewalk when it rains), Hippos, scorpions (though I might), slugs, grubs of all types, flying ants, chickens, bed bugs (though we have an epidemic in Toronto and if they showed up and bit my kid they are toast), barracuda, clown fish, or cats (unless it's someone in that awful musical), mice, rats, tapirs, Indian rhinos, or Blue Heron.

    I do kill mosquitoes.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited August 2010
    Vilhjalmr wrote: »
    Me too. I'm glad you liked it; I thought no one was going to read them! I wish I could tell you more, but I don't know much else about it. I'll see what I can dig up.
    I read them both. The result is that the experiments were inconclusive and the scientists resorted to hypothesis.

    In the case of the fruitfly:
    We found that there must be an evolved function in the fly brain which leads to spontaneous variations in fly behavior" Sugihara said. "The results of our analysis indicate a mechanism which might be common to many other animals and could form the biological foundation for what we experience as free will".

    In the case of the cockroach:
    So Urbilateria could have possessed them and still have had almost no brain. The ultimate answer will come from identifying and comparing dozens more insect and mammal genes. Of particular interest are those involved in forming complex structures that play similar roles, like mushroom bodies and the hippocampus.


    Well, memory + free will seems like a good combination for consciousness to me.

    And this was another interesting point:
    Our subjective notion of "Free Will" is an oxymoron: the term 'will' would not apply if our actions were completely random and it would not be 'free' if they were entirely determined. So if there is free will, it must be somewhere between chance and necessity - which is exactly where fly behavior comes to lie. "The question of whether or not we have free will appears to be posed the wrong way," says Brembs. "Instead, if we ask 'how close to free will are we"' one finds that this is precisely where humans and animals differ".
  • Love-N-PeaceLove-N-Peace Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    I kill mosquitoes.

    I do not intentionally kill... Butterflies, flies, spiders, three toed sloths, lemurs, red squirrels, budgies, octopuses, Weiner dogs, schnauzers, millipedes, centipedes (though they creep me out), porpoises, guppies, daisies, bats, invasive Asian long horn beetles, dew worms (I move them from the sidewalk when it rains), Hippos, scorpions (though I might), slugs, grubs of all types, flying ants, chickens, bed bugs (though we have an epidemic in Toronto and if they showed up and bit my kid they are toast), barracuda, clown fish, or cats (unless it's someone in that awful musical), mice, rats, tapirs, Indian rhinos, or Blue Heron.

    I do kill mosquitoes.

    You have a fascinating mixture of animals when you live :lol: And the cats from the musical? No one would blame you. As Buddha said,
    In many a year there shall become an evil music by the name of Cats. If one is to come across a participant of this wicked trade, this awful masquerade, you are to kill them instantly. Karma will favour you and you shall be instantly enlightened
    :crazy:
  • Love-N-PeaceLove-N-Peace Veteran
    edited August 2010
    federica wrote: »
    I read them both. The result is that the experiments were inconclusive and the scientists resorted to hypothesis.

    In the case of the fruitfly:



    In the case of the cockroach:







    And this was another interesting point:

    What are you trying to prove against?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited August 2010
    Nothing in particular. I'm just pointing out that the debate as to whether insects are sentient or not, still rages as much as it ever does.
  • Love-N-PeaceLove-N-Peace Veteran
    edited August 2010
    I think they are, and even if they're not, it doesn't make it OK to pointlessly kill them.
  • ChrysalidChrysalid Veteran
    edited August 2010
    federica wrote: »
    Nothing in particular. I'm just pointing out that the debate as to whether insects are sentient or not, still rages as much as it ever does.
    Insects are sentient, there is no denying that they can see, hear, chemosense (I don't think it right to call what they do smell and taste) and react to those stimuli with either attraction or aversion.

    Are they conscious of their actions? I don't think so, no. They're like little biological automatons. My dissertation was on housefly behaviour, which meant many hours of watching flies doing their thing. They react to stimuli in much the same way as those little robots you can buy do, those aibo dogs (or whatever they're called) and furbies.

    I don't kill them though, not even mosquitoes, as they are sentient animals.

    Having said that, I do vacuum up fleas, and remove colonies of mites etc that turn up, simply because to leave them means the situation only gets worse and so instead of killing a few insects now, you end up killing thousands later on.
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    i feel the same way as you do, I think that ants and other "fast multiplying" insects do get out of hand and that killing the one helps the many.
  • mugzymugzy Veteran
    edited August 2010
    I feel so guilty killing even the tiniest bug. The other day a small moth had fallen into the toilet and was slowly drowning. I flushed it away and immediately regretted not trying to fish it out, even though it may have died anyway. I felt compassion for the poor thing suffering and felt bad that I did not try to save it.

    I do understand the need for pest control in cases of infestations, but I still feel intense sadness for both the insects that are killed (since they're only trying to survive) and the workers who must kill hundreds of thousands of creatures.
  • username_5username_5
    edited August 2010
    zombiegirl wrote: »
    so i tried the catch and release method for about 6 spiders, and i almost fell of my chair a few times... had a spider jump on me... and i probably should mention, i know they are small but i am EXTREMELY afraid of spiders. irrationally so. so, in the end, i ended up grabbing the vacuum...

    and now i just feel terrible.

    you should. What you did was terrible so you should feel terrible.
    i know there is no way to erase the negative karma i have created..
    No, there is no way to erase that karma. Your next life will likely be as a bug that gets eaten by a spider. Enjoy having your insides digested while you are still alive.
    but is there any way i could have avoided this situation? and is there any way i can possibly make up for this? my guess would be that there were at least 30-40 baby spiders. what would you have done? seriously, i know being a buddhist is not easy, but i just ended up sort of freaking out... sigh.
    First, everything I wrote above was in jest ;)

    Honestly when I think about the 5 precepts and consider 'Abstain from killing' it just makes my brain hurt. Taken to an extreme we should feel like murders for getting antibiotics and that is a waste of mental energy and emotional health in my opinion.

    I don't think the world really needs more Buddhists who walk around blessing the flies and the ants. I think the world does need more people who take the 'Abstain from killing' precept so seriously that they realize hating someone creates the same emotional|spiritual state as murder. It just lacks the actual outward action. The counter to hate/anger is loving kindness. Instead of 'being radical' with how far down 'the food chain' we practice compassion, perhaps we could just be radical in terms of how much loving kindness we demonstrate toward everyone, even those who do us wrong.

    I am pretty sure that any negative karma from vacuuming 100 spiders could be more than offset by responding to someone's irrational anger with compassion toward toward them.
  • ChrysalidChrysalid Veteran
    edited August 2010
    username_5 wrote: »
    I am pretty sure that any negative karma from vacuuming 100 spiders could be more than offset by responding to someone's irrational anger with compassion toward toward them.
    Or letting a spider lay 100 eggs up your nose. ;)
    username_5 wrote: »
    Honestly when I think about the 5 precepts and consider 'Abstain from killing' it just makes my brain hurt. Taken to an extreme we should feel like murders for getting antibiotics and that is a waste of mental energy and emotional health in my opinion.
    Taken to the extreme we get Jainism. I believe the founder of Jainism was a contemporary of the Buddha's, it's interesting to see the difference between the extreme path of the Jains and the middle path of the Buddha. In a way I admire the Jains for their compassion, but I also see the impracticality of their ways and why the Buddha advised against such extremes.
  • ShawnM.ShawnM.
    edited August 2010
    Well, I was wondering about impulse kills and mercy kills, and now that I've found this thread I shan't post a new one.


    I kill mosquitoes when they land on me or another person (to protect them from the itching haha) but I will not kill one that is on the wall or just flying around.
    As for other insects I kill spiders if they are large, in my room, and especially, near my bed. I also kill these things called "Silverfish bugs" if they're in my room because they scare the hell out of me
    http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/attachments/general-chit-chat/13375d1172174410-orrible-tiny-bugs-im-my-house-silverfish.jpg

    They're about an inch long, and live up to three years, and lay about 500 eggs at a time. icccckkkkkk

    Also, mercy kills. If something is suffering and is to a point where it cannot be saved is it better to kill it to put it out of it's misery or to just let it go naturally?



    I feel bad after killing anything, even when I unintentionally step on an ant while walking on the sidewalk. I tend to go out of my way to make sure I can avoid stepping on them, even if it almost makes me trip over my feet...
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Whenever I accidentally or intentionally kill an insect / small animal etc. I say "Ahh! Now you have a special chance to be reborn as a human being and get enlightenment." Then I make a special request to "some Buddha power", as a personal favor to myself, to allow that being to be reborn in favorable circumstances.:)

    The only ones that I kill intentionally are insects that cause infestations in the house, etc. (termite, fleas, etc) Try not to kill mosquitoes, but that does not always work out as planned. :)
  • BrandonBrandon
    edited August 2010
    and a good way to avoid the infestations is go to a nutritional store like gnc and get a small vial of peppermint oil. go home and pour some onto a cotton ball till it is entirely wet and stick them in any hole or near a door or window of your house. vwala! it does not kill them but it drives them away.
    edit
    oh and its good for the holidays for mixing with cleaning supplies haha
  • Love-N-PeaceLove-N-Peace Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Fear is a horrible thing. Much suffering is caused because of fear.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited August 2010
    Poor spiders, Perhapes you should pray for a swift rebirth in a pureland for them, Or at least when something like that is done recite some mantra's before moving them.
  • ShawnM.ShawnM.
    edited August 2010
    Lol ok. What mantras would you suggest Caz?

    And what about mercy kills?
  • Love-N-PeaceLove-N-Peace Veteran
    edited August 2010
    There's nowt wrong wi' merci' kills... I have t' do 'em often when mi' famili' dunt kill em' propli' :crazy: :-/
  • treederwrighttreederwright
    edited August 2010
    I like the idea of asking the buddha to help the being that i just killed to become human with all the freedoms and advantages i take for granted and that are so difficult to obtain. Great insight !
  • username_5username_5
    edited August 2010
    Here is something for those of you who experience moral dilemma's about killing insects:

    Just a few minutes ago I was standing on my front porch observing my 'spider friend' (that's what my daughter and I call everything - whatever it is plus friend at the end). All summer long this little guy has been hanging out in it's web on the porch. It started off as a little guy, but is now noticeably larger. I haven't done anything to harm it or try to get it to move along as it's welcome to remain where it is as far as I am concerned.

    This afternoon I noticed a fly was caught in it's web and the spider was having it's way with it. Didn't really mind as that's just how life goes in the insect world.

    This evening though was different. The web was positively filled with bug carcasses. The spider was basically experiencing an all you can eat buffet of bug delights. The reason? We were expecting someone so we left the porch light on. All summer long I was unaware that the reason this spider has been so content to remain in this one spot is that it is right under the porch light and at night the light attracts bugs which get caught in the web.

    So here is the moral brain twister. I put this out there a little bit tongue in cheek as it's not something that really concerns me one way or another, but it's one of those fun wastes of mental energy.

    Since I now *know* that leaving the porch light on results in dozens of insects dying, but also results in a really happy spider, what ought I to do? Do I prefer the dozens of insects or the one spider? Why?

    Have fun with this one folks. Again, it's tongue in cheek, but still fodder for those with a little mental energy to burn.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited August 2010
    username_5 wrote: »
    Here is something for those of you who experience moral dilemma's about killing insects:

    Just a few minutes ago I was standing on my front porch observing my 'spider friend' (that's what my daughter and I call everything - whatever it is plus friend at the end). All summer long this little guy has been hanging out in it's web on the porch. It started off as a little guy, but is now noticeably larger. I haven't done anything to harm it or try to get it to move along as it's welcome to remain where it is as far as I am concerned.

    This afternoon I noticed a fly was caught in it's web and the spider was having it's way with it. Didn't really mind as that's just how life goes in the insect world.

    This evening though was different. The web was positively filled with bug carcasses. The spider was basically experiencing an all you can eat buffet of bug delights. The reason? We were expecting someone so we left the porch light on. All summer long I was unaware that the reason this spider has been so content to remain in this one spot is that it is right under the porch light and at night the light attracts bugs which get caught in the web.

    So here is the moral brain twister. I put this out there a little bit tongue in cheek as it's not something that really concerns me one way or another, but it's one of those fun wastes of mental energy.

    Since I now *know* that leaving the porch light on results in dozens of insects dying, but also results in a really happy spider, what ought I to do? Do I prefer the dozens of insects or the one spider? Why?

    Have fun with this one folks. Again, it's tongue in cheek, but still fodder for those with a little mental energy to burn.

    Motion detector light socket. That way, you are not the one turning the light on. :lol: Save on energy too.:)
  • username_5username_5
    edited August 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    Motion detector light socket. That way, you are not the one turning the light on. :lol: Save on energy too.:)

    In keeping with the tongue in cheek nature of my previous post, how does this make one different than Tony Soprano?

    I understand that intent means everything, but how does 'subcontracting' the actual kill absolve one of responsibility for the death?

    Again this is tongue in cheek, I do not wish anyone to get wrapped up in futile mental circles pondering the imponderable.
  • Love-N-PeaceLove-N-Peace Veteran
    edited August 2010
    username_5 wrote: »
    Here is something for those of you who experience moral dilemma's about killing insects:

    Just a few minutes ago I was standing on my front porch observing my 'spider friend' (that's what my daughter and I call everything - whatever it is plus friend at the end). All summer long this little guy has been hanging out in it's web on the porch. It started off as a little guy, but is now noticeably larger. I haven't done anything to harm it or try to get it to move along as it's welcome to remain where it is as far as I am concerned.

    This afternoon I noticed a fly was caught in it's web and the spider was having it's way with it. Didn't really mind as that's just how life goes in the insect world.

    This evening though was different. The web was positively filled with bug carcasses. The spider was basically experiencing an all you can eat buffet of bug delights. The reason? We were expecting someone so we left the porch light on. All summer long I was unaware that the reason this spider has been so content to remain in this one spot is that it is right under the porch light and at night the light attracts bugs which get caught in the web.

    So here is the moral brain twister. I put this out there a little bit tongue in cheek as it's not something that really concerns me one way or another, but it's one of those fun wastes of mental energy.

    Since I now *know* that leaving the porch light on results in dozens of insects dying, but also results in a really happy spider, what ought I to do? Do I prefer the dozens of insects or the one spider? Why?

    Have fun with this one folks. Again, it's tongue in cheek, but still fodder for those with a little mental energy to burn.

    I'd personally just use a motion detector because all the spider's doing is using what its got and so just do what saves energy my friend :cool:
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