Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
I have realized true zen.
I've become Enlightened. I use this language because its the easiest to communicate with but I no longer think of my self as a self. Its so funny to me now that for years I read sutras, meditated, and sought Enlightenment so tirelessly when there was never anything external to seek! I literally pictured myself as constantly polishing the mirror of my mind to keep it pure and streak free. Now I realize that my true mind is a total void, there is no place for the streaks to collect! It is impossible for it to not be pure! The very act of thinking that "I" wanted to reach enlightenment was detrimental because I was conceiving myself as an I!
I now realize that you can never work to achieve zen. You work to cessate the achievement of zen. Think of how you constantly must convince yourself that you are an individual. "I believe this, I'm not like this, I'm like this, I want to reach enlightenment, I want to end my suffering, I must meditate, I must be compassionate." Its all a constant bombardment of the myth of the ego!
When this all finally hit me I felt like I was exhaling for the first time. Now everything is different. I no longer see myself as a thinker. My only mind is the Buddha-mind. I can never again sit and meditate because I can never not meditate! Its all so strange and wonderful now.
I understand many of you will not believe me, claim that I am wrong, misguided, misunderstanding. Thats okay. I'd like to talk about all this even though it can be frustrating because our language is so geared towards the concept of the individual. Just think of the phrase "our language." Right there it implies that you and I are separate entities, that language is a "thing" separate from us that we can possess when actually there is no language without the duality of speaker and listener.
I now realize that you can never work to achieve zen. You work to cessate the achievement of zen. Think of how you constantly must convince yourself that you are an individual. "I believe this, I'm not like this, I'm like this, I want to reach enlightenment, I want to end my suffering, I must meditate, I must be compassionate." Its all a constant bombardment of the myth of the ego!
When this all finally hit me I felt like I was exhaling for the first time. Now everything is different. I no longer see myself as a thinker. My only mind is the Buddha-mind. I can never again sit and meditate because I can never not meditate! Its all so strange and wonderful now.
I understand many of you will not believe me, claim that I am wrong, misguided, misunderstanding. Thats okay. I'd like to talk about all this even though it can be frustrating because our language is so geared towards the concept of the individual. Just think of the phrase "our language." Right there it implies that you and I are separate entities, that language is a "thing" separate from us that we can possess when actually there is no language without the duality of speaker and listener.
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Good for you ! Now,that you are enlightened, what's your next move ?
From your limited descriptions so far, it seems you have entered the gate - stage 1 or possibly stage 4 of Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
Do you feel the unawakened individual is living in a waking dream? If so how does one wake up? Is there anything one must do to wake up?
Hmmm. Keep practising when you come down off the high, birdshine my friend.
.
Thusness:
"This is an overstatement. Meditation can only be deemed unnecessary when a practitioner has completely dissolved the illusionary view of a self. If a person is able to totally dissolve the self in his first experience of non-duality, he is either the cream of the crop among the enlightened…Mr. Green or he is overwhelmed and got carried away by the non-dual experience. More often than not the latter is more likely. It is a pity if a person has experienced non-duality and yet is ignorance of the strength of his karmic propensities. Just be truthful and practice with a sincere heart, it will not be difficult to discover the deeper layer of consciousness and experience the workings of karmic momentum from moment to moment.
Having said so, it is also true that there will come a time when sitting meditation is deemed redundant and that is when the self liberation aspect of our nature is fully experienced. By then one would be completely fearless, crystal clear and non-attached. The practice of the 2 doors of no-self and impermanence will prepare us for the true insight of the spontaneous and self liberating aspect of our nature to arise."
How can this be the case when this is so?
Seriously you may enjoy a book called Nothing to Do and Nowhere to go. Written by Thich Nhat Hanh about an ancient Zen master and his teachings. I think you would enjoy it because it shows how to purge yourself of zen in order to see reality clearly (in a way). A spiritual laxative. Seems to be right on what you are talking about.
Jack Kornfield also has a book After the Ecstacy the Laundry which is about the predicament of living onward after a spiritual realization.
The Buddha-Mind is the total Void. It is the nothingness behind everything something. It contains nothing and reflects everything. It is non-eternal because it cannot be conceived as existing in time. Everyone has this Buddha-mind, you are simply convincing yourself that you do not.
There is no "me" to be on "high" and there is no practice. Any "progress" or "practice" will simply move you further away for enlightenment because you are looking for it somewhere other than where it is - inside you.
I have dissolved the self. I no longer see myself as an individual. However, I have not cast aside my ego. I use it as a toy. Its a lot of fun, to pretend to be an ego. Now that I know its just a game nothing could be more enjoyable. I can sit in meditation for hours but its pointless. Once you realize you are the Buddha-mind there is no more practice. My meditative state in seated meditation is exactly the same as at work, or on a walk, or any other activity. Its the Buddha-mind.
Exactly. The Diamond Sutra is correct. I no longer see myself as an "I" to be enlightened just as you could never be enlightened if you think there is an "I" to "reach" enlightenment. However, do the confines of our language, which is entirely founded on the concept of individuals, I cannot discuss this matter without using terms such as the word I.
I no longer require Zen books because I have realized true Zen which cannot be written. Now every book is as if it is the most holy Zen sutra to me, even a cook book or a childs book.
It cannot be taught by anyone nor is there more than one stage. Its the realization that you are the Buddha-mind, the true self, all of reality and the absolute void. You know this intrinsically, you're convincing yourself that you're not you by constantly telling yourself you're an ego. You just need to stop. Enlightenment isn't like finding a mystical truth, its like finally breathing out when you've been holding your breath and its making you miserable.
Then those who emphasize the union of luminosity (awareness) and emptiness are called the Third Turning of the Dharma sutras, which includes sutras like Lankavatara Sutra, Samdhinirmochana Sutra, Shurangama Sutra, and many other Tibetan/Vajrayana texts.
Also, Stage 1, 2, 3 need not be undergone by Buddhists - however many types of Buddhists do undergo these stages.
Example, those who practice Mahasi Sayadaw Vipassana simply realise non-dual and Anatta (Stage 5) without going through the I AM stage.
Then who will go through the I AM stage? Usually, 'direct path' practitioners like Zen practitioners, Tibetan Vajrayana, etc, or those who emphasize quickly realising the Luminosity of Mind. Even Theravadins go through as well - especially the Thai Forest Tradition practitioners. Ajahn Brahmavamso warned that those who realised the Poo Roo (The One Who Knows) which is the I AM, easily clings to it as the ultimate Atman or Knower.
If you practice Zen and do self inquiry, like 'Who am I', you will be led to the I AM phase of realization first.
For example, even if you realized the 'Void' as your true nature, you may not realize that all phenomena are the radiance of Mind, such that it is not a Witness observing phenomena - the Observer IS the Observed. That would be Stage 4.
To put it in Zen terms, you have realized the 1st Rank of the 5 Rank of Tozan. You realized 'Apparent within the Real', but not the 2nd rank, 'Real within the Apparent':
Tozan Ryokai's Verses on the Five Ranks
" i have not said a word" .
lol keep on helping others and if enlightenment comes great, and if it doesn't then at least others are happy
(sometimes i give whacks to my ownself just to see if im still there. aside from the joking, congrats on your progress. I hope you have a happy life)
I don't see it as progress. Because its inherent any progress is going in the exactly wrong direction. I think of it as a regress.
My greatest advice is this: Throw out all your sutras, your scriptures, your buddha figurines. Throw all the teachings out of your mind. To submit to a teaching is to accept you are an individual and there is an individual teacher. You must simply realize whats waiting within yourself.
Hui-Neng's No Bodhi Tree poem is only the I AM stage, or the 1st Tozan Rank - Apparent within the Real. Not many people know this, however my Taiwanese teacher (who holds Rinzai/Linji lineage), and many other masters (I've seen some Chinese masters saying this) have pointed this out. Thusness have pointed this out as well 5 years ago. It is still not the realization of non-duality, just the void, the formless, the I AM.
5th Patriarch rubbed off Hui-Neng's poem with his shoes saying that this one has not realized the nature of mind yet. Many think that he is only trying to protect Hui-Neng, but apart from that, the 5th Patriarch is also telling Hui-Neng he is missing something.
Hui-Neng's second enlightenment came only later that night after the 5th patriach taught him Dharma - then he claimed to have realized that all ten thousand dharmas (all things in the universe) are the Essence of Mind itself. He called this the 'Great Enlightenment' to distinguish it from his earlier enlightenment. I did not make this up - you can check Platform Sutra.
This is the realization of non-duality. And even then, 5th Patriach told him to wait for 15 years before teaching. This is because even that is not the final enlightenment.
*Note: What you experienced is Impersonality. But impersonality is not the same as Anatta. The stripping off of personality can lead to a seeing through of the illusion of being a separate person or individual, or there being 'other persons', and at a mature level can lead to a sense of 'being lived' by the One Life (and you see everyone as not 'persons' but the lived functions of One Mind), then it becomes almost like Stage 2. But this is all still the I AM level, impersonality is present in Stage 1 and 2, or maybe 3.
As I wrote about two weeks ago:
Impersonality is a further deconstruction after having experienced the 'Certainty of Being' (I AM). There is no one to be aware of impersonality, impersonality is not an object, and neither is there a separate person to be aware of impersonality (and the very idea itself sounds ridiculous!). Rather, impersonality is the absence of that separate 'me' person that is aware, experiencing, doing things. You clearly see that such a separate person is clearly a fiction of thought. What is left in the absence is pure impersonal perceiving and functioning of the One Mind/Consciousness/Life.
Also:
What Thusness is saying is that impersonality is a type of 'no self' experience. But there are different 'kinds' of 'no self', the term 'no self' can mean different things, as accordance to the Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment. It can mean Impersonality which is still at the I AM level (Thusness Stage 1 to 3), it can mean No-Self as in no subject-object division in Non Dual (Thusness Stage 4) level, or it can mean Anatta (Thusness Stage 5). All these various stages of enlightenment/insights talk about 'no-self' but what they refer to isn't exactly the same. That is why one must correctly recognise these phases of insights as they occur and not confuse one with another.
Also just a note... the Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment actually applies universally - if you did a 'case study' of all the contemplatives around the world regardless of tradition or religion, you can see a similar pattern of insight unfolding - or rather even if the pattern in which it unfolds is different (certain types of practitioners may some skip to non dual without going through 'I AM'), there will be similar insights unfolding concerning the luminous essence. All these contemplatives will also talk about 'no self' one way or another.
However it is Buddhism that emphasize 'Anatta', 'Emptiness' and 'Dependent Origination' as essential to true liberation from the bond of seeing inherent existence, which corresponds to Stage 5 and 6, and this teaching is peculiar to Buddhism.
Also, I wrote years ago:
First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing from personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no self apart from arising and passing. A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. (related article: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/07/bernadette-roberts-interview.html) This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).
To put further emphasis on the importance of this point, I would like to borrow from the Bahiya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html) that ‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’ as an illustration. When a person says that I have gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’, he is mistaken. When it is taken to be a stage, it is illusory. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the seal of no-self. Therefore to a non dualist, the practice is in understanding the illusionary views of the sense of self and the split. Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of 'presence'. This purest presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the spontaneous nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things dualistically (also see my other friend Longchen’s article http://www.dreamdatum.com/meditation-spontaneous.html where I posted two of his articles including ‘How is nonduality like?’ in this forum)
<center>
Now there may be no error in your (partial) insights, in fact you may be very insightful. But it has gone to your head. Go to a proper zen teacher and proclaim your enlightenement . Go stand in front of a Sangha and explain how you have realized true Zen. Go proclaim yourself to them, see what they do.
If one looks around (provided that person is poking around the right places), one realizes that there truly are lots of people who have gone through the same experiences/phases... and whatever realizations one had are 'nothing special'. Which is a good thing really, so you can share notes and learn from each other.
I'm not interested in convincing you that I've reached enlightenment. I don't think there is an I to be a fool or to be arrogant or a head for this to go. I've finally poured my beliefs out of my head and am now keeping it empty.
e: Of course they're nothing special and of course thousands have others have attained it because there is nothing special or unique and there is no other.
I have no investment in you claiming to be a fully enlightened being or not. It is just that the experience you describe in the OP is so obviously no big deal. It is a headscratcher, that fact that you are so impressed with yourself. In Sangha this kind of experience is typical, common, truly no big deal. It is also common for people who are isolated from other practitioners to feel that they are special. Someone elsewhere on this forum called this "Kensho illness".
In any case, just be aware that this forum is Sangha, and I'm wondering why exactly you feel the need to proclaim your enlightenment here.
What do you want birdshine? You want something.
You know darn well what would happen when he got to the Zen sangha... he'd be hit with a stick until he was pissed off again... and damn better off for it.
With warmth,
Matt
We all get hit with a good stick soon enough.
i was wondering this as well.
however, i really am in no position to say whether or not birdshine is enlightened or not (how should i know? i'm certainly not, lol). so i say... i am happy for you birdshine and hoping that you are not delusional. (that doesn't exactly sound the way i meant it... but i can't seem to phrase it better)
birdshine-
i am curious though... if we should throw out all of our books and sutras etc... what exactly did you do that brought you to be enlightened? what were you meditating on? and do you really think that none of your previous studies had anything to do with this?
also, what now? i'm seriously curious what your day to day is like now. i often wonder, "what would i do if i were enlightened?" would i keep my job and my girlfriend and my apartment and my friends? or would i throw all of that away for the search of something higher? i don't know. is it really as someone said, "before enlightenment: chop wood and carry water. after enlightenment: chop wood and carry water."?
curiouser and curiouser.
Heh, isn't that the truth. Umm... the second one I mean. The first one is more snarky, but yeah... if I had a dollar for every person I've seen jump up and yell "Eureka! I'm done! I've done it! I am the master now!" I'd have I think 7 or 8 dollars. One of those came right from my own pocket too, I must admit. Silly kids we all are
On the other hand, it can be so directly refreshing to have a view beyond dualistic reality, that its really no wonder why we think we've obtained ultimate release from the wheel of karma. Until of course we get hit by that stick, it slips away, and we get red faced, sit back down and breathe some more.
With warmth,
Matt
if you are arrogant then that means there is no buddha nature. How could buddha nature see anything but. Therefore i think arrogance is not enlightenment. Maybe enlightenment is the recognition of arrogance. Yet i think this would be the same, if seeing arrogance is enlightenment then anyone who sees arrogance would be enlightened. and since i see arrogance i would be enlightened. Principally if arrogance and enlightenment were conditions for buddha nature , buddha nature would result from these conditions. Yet i don't feel that they do simply because i am certian i see arrogance , therefore am i certian im enlightened. Yet if i am certain, then i have a inherent and fixed oppinion about arrogance & enlightenment. How is it that i am certian and therefore not enlightened and arrogant? since i am also certian of non arrogance is that enlightenment . Certianty couldn't be a condition for buddha nature either
So why try to discuss it to begin with? In other words, what was the reason for creating this thread to begin with? Perhaps because you enjoy talking about it? If so, why do you enjoy talking about it?
Yes, exactly.
If there is no you to refer to, then who shall I refer to when speaking, the rest of the cosmos?
WOULD AN ARAHANT SAY "I" OR "MINE"?
Other devas had more sophisticated queries. One deva, for example, asked the Buddha if an arahant could use words that refer to a self:
"Consummate with taints destroyed,
One who bears his final body,
Would he still say 'I speak'?
And would he say 'They speak to me'?"
This deva realized that arahantship means the end of rebirth and suffering by uprooting mental defilements; he knew that arahants have no belief in any self or soul. But he was puzzled to hear monks reputed to be arahants continuing to use such self-referential expressions.
The Buddha replied that an arahant might say "I" always aware of the merely pragmatic value of common terms:
"Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions."
The deva, trying to grasp the Buddha's meaning, asked whether an arahant would use such expressions because he is still prone to conceit. The Buddha made it clear that the arahant has no delusions about his true nature. He has uprooted all notions of self and removed all traces of pride and conceit:
"No knots exist for one with conceit cast off;
For him all knots of conceit are consumed.
When the wise one has transcended the conceived
He might still say 'I speak,'
And he might say 'They speak to me.'
Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions." (KS I, 21-22; SN 1:25)
I agree with this completely. I'm not impressed with myself, I think this is far more common than uncommon, and I embrace that it is no big deal.
I simply had the urge to express and so I did.
I don't want anything. There is no I to have wants. There is nothing I am looking to accomplish or achieve from this thread.
I'm certainly not looking for recognition. I created this thread on impulse so I don't know what the reason is but I don't feel there are separate you and Is for the other to recognize. What you describe is interesting though. Would it anger me to be beaten with a stick? That would certainly disprove that I was enlightened if it were the case as I'd fall back into the trap of thinking there is even a me to be beaten or angry.
There was no teaching or sutra that lead me to this. I wasn't meditating. It simply dawned on me. Suddenly it struck me. Everything clicked, everything made sense. I realized that all the time I'd spent meditating was a total joke. I laugh about it now, all the work I did. I laugh about it a lot.
Yes, I still chop wood and carry water. I work at a school of painting and sculpture in the kitchen. I used to dislike work. In the Buddha-mind, its ecstatic. What used to be boring, mundane food prep is now a throng of sensations. My out-of-work style of life has changed also. Whereas before I'd sit and work on my novel, read up on the news, call a friend now I will simply wander aimlessly through the woods at night or stretch for hours. I still keep my personal relations and friends however its becoming more and more difficult. I no longer play along with conversations or cling to the concept of separate individuals when talking with them. I think all my friends have suspected that I've gone totally mad. One of my friends here is a fellow practitioner who is trying to learn from what I've achieved. I'm telling him thats exactly what not to do.
I like to think my Buddha statue enlightened a fish when I threw it in the lake.
You must have a self in order to be arrogant or enlightened, and you don't. You are attempting in vain to convince yourself that you have a self using tools such as enlightened or arrogant.
The impulse simply arose and I no longer question these impulses.
I don't know the answer to this question.
I'm going to take everyones advice and go get hit by a stick.
I dont make such claims
It is unwise to make such claims.
Either way, the concept is arguable.
Awake sounds more real that enlightened in this case.
Oh, and that phrase...'Throw all the teachings out of your mind' is kinda...weird. Now, how can you write something when you haven't learned the alphabet yet ? Moreover, if you don't know how to write,and you still need to write, won't you need a teacher to show you how to do it ?
Buddha turned the wheel of Dharma to benifit others, By claiming you are enlightened you are causing people to think you are a loon, Instead whereas you could have helped perform enlightened actions such as giving teachings on how to control the mind and permenantly remove suffering and the causes of suffering which are actions out of developed minds.
If you are enlightened why are you not helping us to develop faith in teachings that lead to happiness ?
The first thing people do is develop mistrust in people who make claims and cannot provide the substance to back it up.