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Confused Vipassana and Zazen

MIG1MIG1
edited July 2010 in Meditation
Hi,
I thought Zazen was focusing on the breath and Vipassana observing the mind. I've read and watched some things that seem to contradict that. I watched a video on Vipassana and the guy said focus on the breath only on the breath, and another clip on Zazen saying just sit with eyes open or half open and sit facing a wall to have a spot to focus on.

Can someone confirm which techniques are the correct ones for each meditation?

Thanks

Comments

  • MIG1MIG1
    edited July 2010
    Hi People,
    I know this question had been asked before and I have clicked on Vipassana meditation below in the links, but why does it seem to be so many contradictions? Am I doing Vipassana correctly if i'm observing the body and thoughts and Zazen correctly if i'm focusing on the breath? I know it's frustrating when a newbie comes along and asks a question that's been asked before but i'd like to confirm it.

    Here is a link to the kind of Vipassana meditation i've been practicing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNmxxbqJMxI

    And yet i've downloaded an hour clip by S N Geonka where he says focus on the breath, only on the breath. Plus i've read texts on website that confirms the same one says breath the other says observing. Also can someone confirm is Zazen Samatha? Just that the Zen Buddhist label Samatha as Zazen?

    Any help would be much appreciated.

    Thank you.
  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited July 2010
    One emphasizes insight (vipassana) and the other emphasizes concentration (shamtha).
    Its unfortunate that both traditions have become some singularly emphatic in certain circles/sangha's.
    Concentration and insight are essential and should always be practiced in tandem.
    A bird cant fly with one wing.
  • MIG1MIG1
    edited July 2010
    Thanks for your response. So insight (Vipassana) would be observation? Is that correct?
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited July 2010
    There are different types of "Zazen" but they are all called Zazen. Below is a good description. However, regardless of what type, they all start with the development of concentration (counting breath, etc.) It's not possible to gain much insight if all you are doing is thinking about what happened at work yesterday.:)
    Very generally speaking, zazen practice is taught in one of three ways.
    Concentration
    Koan Introspection
    Shikantaza (just sitting)

    Shikantaza is usually associated with the Soto school, and koan practice with the Rinzai school. In reality many Zen communities use both methods depending on the teacher and students.

    Concentration

    The initial stages of training in zazen will usually emphasize concentration. By focusing on the breath at the hara, often aided by counting. This counting meditation is called susokukan, and has several variations. Through this practice one builds up the power of concentration, or joriki. At some Zen centers, the practice of mentally repeating a mantra with the breath is used in place of counting breaths for beginners. In some communities, or sanghas, the practice is continued in this way until there is some initial experience of samadhi or "one-pointedness" of mind. At this point the practitioner moves to one of the other two methods of zazen.

    Koan Introspection

    Having developed the power of concentration, the practitioner can now focus his or her attention on a koan as an object of meditation. Since koans are, ostensibly, not solvable by intellectual reasoning, koan introspection is designed to shortcut the intellectual process leading to direct realization of a reality beyond thought.

    Shikantaza (just sitting)

    Shikantaza is objectless meditation, in which the practitioner does not use any specific object of meditation, but uses the power developed in concentration to remain completely aware of all phenomena that arise and pass in the present moment.

    Comparison with other practices in Buddhism

    Concentration practice in Zen is likened to the practice of samatha (concentration) in other schools of Buddhism. The eyes remain slightly open in zazen, as with the practice of samatha in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition and unlike in Theravada practice.

    Concentration is foundational to most other forms of meditation in Buddhism. In actuality, all meditative practices, Buddhist and non-Buddhist, take concentration to execute, and therefore are concentration practices in and of themselves. Some teachers do not teach concentration as a separate practice, believing that it is developed through other practices.

    Koan introspection and shikantaza are more likened to the vipashyana (insight) practice in Theravada, but are sometimes considered to be a condensation of vipashyana and samatha into a single practice. For this reason, shikantaza can also be referred to as samatha-vipashyana. Similarly, koan introspection, while leading to insight, requires an immense amount of concentration on the object of meditation (the koan).
  • MIG1MIG1
    edited July 2010
    Thanks very much for posting that. That's very helpful :)
  • zekezeke
    edited July 2010
    It's not possible to gain much insight if all you are doing is thinking about what happened at work yesterday

    You'd be surprised from what things you can gain insight from.
    Actually, you wouldn't because it's basically everything, isn't it?
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited July 2010
    MIG1 wrote: »
    Thanks for your response. So insight (Vipassana) would be observation? Is that correct?

    Yes, that's a good way of looking at it. It's closely related to sati ( mindfulness ).

    P
  • MIG1MIG1
    edited July 2010
    Yes, that's a good way of looking at it. It's closely related to sati ( mindfulness ).

    Thank you.
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited July 2010
    if you go to a vipassana retreat, you will spend a few days developing your concentrations by focusing on the breath only before actually beginning to do vipassana meditation.

    at home, they recommend to do 1/2 hour concentrating on the breath and 1/2 hour vipassana meditation when you do a one hour session. Twice a day.
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    edited July 2010
    patbb wrote: »

    at home, they recommend to do 1/2 hour concentrating on the breath and 1/2 hour vipassana meditation when you do a one hour session. Twice a day.

    I thought Vipassana was concentrating on the breath..?

    Sorry, even though I've been meditating for a long time I've been getting confused about the terms. I have no Sangha in my city.

    Is Vipassana something more than concentrating on the breath?
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited July 2010
    shanyin wrote: »

    Is Vipassana something more than concentrating on the breath?

    Yes, it's insight into the nature of things. There are a number of ways to approach this.

    P
  • MIG1MIG1
    edited July 2010
    if you go to a vipassana retreat, you will spend a few days developing your concentrations by focusing on the breath only before actually beginning to do vipassana meditation.

    at home, they recommend to do 1/2 hour concentrating on the breath and 1/2 hour vipassana meditation when you do a one hour session. Twice a day.

    Ahhh I see that's really helpful. I understand why he was saying that now, thank you.
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited July 2010
    shanyin wrote: »
    I thought Vipassana was concentrating on the breath..?
    no.

    concentrating on the breath is called anapana.

    there is no better place to learn about Vipassana meditation than to go to a retreat if you can.
    shanyin wrote: »
    Is Vipassana something more than concentrating on the breath?
    yes. Body scans, observing the sensations in the body. (being able to tell if it feels cold/hot/wet/dry/anything on the right side of your nail of your middle toe one second, and do the same one any other body part the next.)

    It is also a way to deal directly with the sensations. take out the accumulated trash, the layers and layers of emotions.

    This is why many people lose their life long migraines (like me), lose their crippling back ache etc...
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    edited July 2010
    patbb wrote: »
    no.

    concentrating on the breath is called anapana.

    there is no better place to learn about Vipassana meditation than to go to a retreat if you can.

    You're the second person to tell me that.

    Definetly on my things to do list.
  • MIG1MIG1
    edited July 2010
    yes. Body scans, observing the sensations in the body. (being able to tell if it feels cold/hot/wet/dry/anything on the right side of your nail of your middle toe one second, and do the same one any other body part the next.)

    It is also a way to deal directly with the sensations. take out the accumulated trash, the layers and layers of emotions.

    This is why many people lose their life long migraines (like me), lose their crippling back ache etc...

    I'm going to copy and paste some of the stuff on here
  • MIG1MIG1
    edited July 2010
    there is no better place to learn about Vipassana meditation than to go to a retreat if you can.

    Got one about an hour away from me:

    http://www.dhamma.org/en/schedules/schdipa.htm

    Just don't think I could do it for 10 full days at the moment.
  • JaakkoJaakko
    edited July 2010
    shanyin wrote: »
    I thought Vipassana was concentrating on the breath..?

    Sorry, even though I've been meditating for a long time I've been getting confused about the terms. I have no Sangha in my city.

    Is Vipassana something more than concentrating on the breath?


    In thailand (wat suan mokkh) they teach a technique called anapanasati, mindfullnes with breathing, and they go all the way with the breath. Instead on scanning the body etc. the idea is to see the impermanence from the breath (vipassana means impermanence). Its a fast and special technique, and it aims to the "little nirvana" by doing this, wich is the same experience than nirvana, but ofcourse it fades away after a period of time. So it doesnt make you a buddha (!) :) but it does solve your intellectual philosophical problems for sure. Well.. most of them. It might mess you up as well if you do it before you have the ground to understand the "shiftings" of reality.

    Personally i prefer shikantaza wich means just sitting, and progress on my way gradually :) When living in a city the anapanasati technique doesnt work (at least for me). Its a technique that requires and develop a very strong one pointed consentration, wich is too much asked in city life imo. In city i need a wider consentration and nerves :) And shikantaza is perfekt for that. It enables mo to progress on environments wich are noisy and full of social tensions.

    So anapanasati is samatha and vipassana together, and anapana means just the developement on consentration by using the breath. Personally i have abandoned techniques that involvs counting the breath or manipulating it. But i think that the main idea with anapana is to take you to the stage of samadhi or first jhana, wich works as a platform to gain the insights of anatta, anicca and sunjata (+ metta). and this process is called vipassana. But like porpoise said, there are number of way how to approach this :) But already samadhi or the first jhana is a profound experience if compared to the "normal" way of experiencing reality. And the comparing of these states of mind makes meditators miserable :) hihi.

    So personally i dont believe in magic tricks :) so i rely on old fashion ways to develop myself towards non-self. Wich means doing my best and giving up the useless effort and thinking(!). I simply sit when i sit, and let the dharma come to me. Or something like that.
  • MIG1MIG1
    edited July 2010
    Thanks Jaakko,
    Had a look at anapanasat, just have to find how to do the technique now :)
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  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited January 2011
    Vipissana means insight meditation. There are numerous ways to accomplish this. Shamata is first attained so that you can examine reality with steadiness. Like a candle flame not blown out by the wind lighting the mind.

    There are some forms of Shamata where the concentration is so focused that there is little opportunity for insight because you are so stuck to the object of meditation. Though naturally insight will come up to be returning to the object habitually.

    It is possible to do a meditation that combines the two.

    Observation is a good word but it should be ordinary and perky and curious. Not a heavy 'watcher' paranoid with glazed eyes wondering at every thought what it is. Just a light touch. Ordinary mind settled.

    Note: I am not a meditation teacher. These are my opinions.
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