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The Buddha: Foolish man, to whom do you know me having preached this Teaching. Haven't I told, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, you foolish man, because of your wrong grasp, blame me, destroy yourself, and accumulate much demerit.
The Buddha: Foolish man, :dunce: to whom do you know me having preached this Teaching. :eek2: Haven't I told, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. :nonono: Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. :crazy: Yet you, foolish man, because of your wrong grasp, blame me, destroy yourself, and accumulate much demerit. :PWNED:
Try:
The Buddha: Foolish man, to whom do you know me having preached this Teaching. Haven't I told, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet you, foolish, because of your wrong grasp, blame me, destroy yourself, and accumulate much demerit.
Yea, this part of course I understand on the basis that the realms are just mental states which we experience. For example, the rapture and joy which meditators experience during deep stages are probably close to what is explained in the books as "Brahma Realms".
Do you think such realms actually exist? If so, maybe it is possible to be reborn there? hmmmm...I wonder what is meant when the Buddha is said to be "the teacher of devas and humans"?
Do you think such realms actually exist? If so, maybe it is possible to be reborn there? hmmmm...I wonder what is meant when the Buddha is said to be "the teacher of devas and humans"?
I am sure such mental states exist as you can experience them while in meditation
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited July 2010
Re-birth, reincarnation....semantics.
Meh, what's the difference....? :poke:
(*Twiddles thumbs and waits for it......*) :rolleyes:
To give another angle to the whole out of body experience comment, it is known that when you are about to die or are in fact dying, your brain releases a vast amount of chemicals such as serotonin and a chemical closely related to a drug DMT. serotonin in itself at high levels causes visions and hallucinations, but DMT is highly hallucinogenic. It is meant to be responsible for the 'white light' situation when people are about to die. It seems that when you are about to die, your brain dumps a load of chemicals causing euphoria, something to look forward to :P
I saw a documentary once about a woman who was in laos and was involved in a car accident. She was left on the side of the road with a severed arm losing blood rapidly. She had recently learned a breathing technique ina meditation class that helped you to focus and remain conscious. She could not move and after a while someone pulled up in a truck and took her to a room somewhere, stiched her arm up a bit and left her still in a critical condition. She explained that she accepted she was going to die and saw a light and in that moment she felt no pain, at peace and tranquil. This is possible due to the chemicals I was referring to. Anyway, someone coincidentally found her from the red cross and took her to a hospital all the way in bangkok where she made a recovery. The doctor said with her injuries and lack of help, he would have expected her to die. She put it down to the meditation technique... She also claimed nearly dying to be on of the most enlightening experiences of her life.
I've been 'out' many times (and back). Never seen a white light, never felt 'high', no hallucinations, no seratonin, no euphoria etc. We've really got to re-define 'reality' then things will start falling into place...
Never seen a white light, never felt 'high', no hallucinations,
How do you know they weren't hallucinations (for example, did you have someone strap you down in a locked room and you were able to affect the world outside that room in a verifiable way?)? Do you have documentation of this for us to see?
hmm, well I would question the relation to the class you took and actually dying if I am honest. Can you elaborate on the teachings you went through and also why?
If you aren't going to describe the practice and/or give the name of it and/or explain your proof that that it wasn't a hallucination and/or identify the teacher/school from which you learned this practice... =|
hmm, well I would question the relation to the class you took and actually dying if I am honest. Can you elaborate on the teachings you went through and also why?
Try this link for info on death and dying, or research her for stats, not all NDE's see 'white lights' etc
If there is no "self" or "I" then how could "I" be reincarnated????
I arises upon formulations of Bodily and mental aggregates, The I which we perceive now is a result of past actions that have lead to this moment, As there is no effect without cause.
This ordinary I is ignorance it arises in dependance upon the 12 links and continues in that pattern, Even after this passing away of this body, It is as when we dream we leave this gross body behind and we possess a dream body and when we awake we find ourselves once again possessing this Gross body, A mind that clings strongly at the aggregates is a mind which will inevitably seek rebirth, The mind is formless.
Sounds a bit harsh That's because you're reading it all wrong.
Quote:
<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px inset;" class="alt2"> The Buddha: Foolish man, :dunce: to whom do you know me having preached this Teaching. :eek2: Haven't I told, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. :nonono: Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. :crazy: Yet you, foolish man, because of your wrong grasp, blame me, destroy yourself, and accumulate much demerit. :PWNED: </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Try:
Quote:
The Buddha: Foolish man, to whom do you know me having preached this Teaching. Haven't I told, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet you, foolish, because of your wrong grasp, blame me, destroy yourself, and accumulate much demerit.
lol Nice one Valtiel. That was very clever. I understand now
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I see federica has switched on the timer which counts down to the thread lock alarm
You know me too well... when threads fly off at a tangent, and it merely becomes a loud trumpet competition, it really gets boring.
Or obsessive.
Or obsessively boring.
Or boringly obsessive....
Yup, I think that's it.....
or B.O. for short.
Something begins to smell.....:D
We really do need to try a bit harder to keep on topic with threads.
Non-members and lurking readers really must lose the will to live (if you'll pardon the irony, considering the way the topic has spun!) when trying to plough through some discussions.
I'd really like to think 80% of posts were On/T, and 20% off....rather, as currently seems, the other way round....
I arises upon formulations of Bodily and mental aggregates, The I which we perceive now is a result of past actions that have lead to this moment, As there is no effect without cause.
This ordinary I is ignorance it arises in dependance upon the 12 links and continues in that pattern, Even after this passing away of this body, It is as when we dream we leave this gross body behind and we possess a dream body and when we awake we find ourselves once again possessing this Gross body, A mind that clings strongly at the aggregates is a mind which will inevitably seek rebirth, The mind is formless.
And this seems on topic to me....
Now that's more like it.
As I always say if you enter into long diatribes and off-kilter discussions (such as this extravagant near-death discussion which frankly, means nothing with regard to rebirth and reincarnation) then continue in PMs...
Otherwise, please stick to the topic in hand:
permit me to remind you all:
If there is no "self" or "I" then how could "I" be reincarnated????
Shouldn't the question be something like: If there is no permanent and unconditioned SELF then how could "I" be reincarnated? (or reborn, for the matter)
As I understand it (I could be wrong), the SELF is like every other thing, it is impermanent and conditioned by other things, in this case the five aggregates. In turn, the "body" (first aggregate) is also impermanent and conditioned by the other four aggregates - but we don't refer to it as "no body". So it goes on with the other aggregates...
Aren't we reading too much into the anatta doctrine? If we realize that the SELF is impermanent and conditioned like everything else, then it becomes clear that the self or "I" is changing from moment to moment (perhaps, also lifetime-to-lifetime for those who accept rebirth), and it is not the same "I" (person) that exists from one moment to the next, the SELF and "I" are simply processes.
Comments
Sounds a bit harsh
That's because you're reading it all wrong. Try:
I am sure such mental states exist as you can experience them while in meditation
Meh, what's the difference....? :poke:
(*Twiddles thumbs and waits for it......*) :rolleyes:
I saw a documentary once about a woman who was in laos and was involved in a car accident. She was left on the side of the road with a severed arm losing blood rapidly. She had recently learned a breathing technique ina meditation class that helped you to focus and remain conscious. She could not move and after a while someone pulled up in a truck and took her to a room somewhere, stiched her arm up a bit and left her still in a critical condition. She explained that she accepted she was going to die and saw a light and in that moment she felt no pain, at peace and tranquil. This is possible due to the chemicals I was referring to. Anyway, someone coincidentally found her from the red cross and took her to a hospital all the way in bangkok where she made a recovery. The doctor said with her injuries and lack of help, he would have expected her to die. She put it down to the meditation technique... She also claimed nearly dying to be on of the most enlightening experiences of her life.
Tom
She's on a roll today!
I've been 'out' many times (and back). Never seen a white light, never felt 'high', no hallucinations, no seratonin, no euphoria etc. We've really got to re-define 'reality' then things will start falling into place...
Regards
Who was your teacher? What school?
Er...
No I didn't die a few times (I'm not that clumsy). I used to do a range of practices that would make these sort of things happen...
http://www.ekrfoundation.org/ http://www.nderf.org/
or
http://www.nderf.org/
As for me, oobe's do parallel nde's in many ways. I set out a brief overview on page 1 of this thread.
http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showpost.php?p=119196&postcount=38
I arises upon formulations of Bodily and mental aggregates, The I which we perceive now is a result of past actions that have lead to this moment, As there is no effect without cause.
This ordinary I is ignorance it arises in dependance upon the 12 links and continues in that pattern, Even after this passing away of this body, It is as when we dream we leave this gross body behind and we possess a dream body and when we awake we find ourselves once again possessing this Gross body, A mind that clings strongly at the aggregates is a mind which will inevitably seek rebirth, The mind is formless.
lol Nice one Valtiel. That was very clever. I understand now
You know me too well... when threads fly off at a tangent, and it merely becomes a loud trumpet competition, it really gets boring.
Or obsessive.
Or obsessively boring.
Or boringly obsessive....
Yup, I think that's it.....
or B.O. for short.
Something begins to smell.....:D
We really do need to try a bit harder to keep on topic with threads.
Non-members and lurking readers really must lose the will to live (if you'll pardon the irony, considering the way the topic has spun!) when trying to plough through some discussions.
I'd really like to think 80% of posts were On/T, and 20% off....rather, as currently seems, the other way round....
Oh, gee, I'm just doing my best....!
And this seems on topic to me....
Now that's more like it.
As I always say if you enter into long diatribes and off-kilter discussions (such as this extravagant near-death discussion which frankly, means nothing with regard to rebirth and reincarnation) then continue in PMs...
Otherwise, please stick to the topic in hand:
permit me to remind you all:
Shouldn't the question be something like: If there is no permanent and unconditioned SELF then how could "I" be reincarnated? (or reborn, for the matter)
As I understand it (I could be wrong), the SELF is like every other thing, it is impermanent and conditioned by other things, in this case the five aggregates. In turn, the "body" (first aggregate) is also impermanent and conditioned by the other four aggregates - but we don't refer to it as "no body". So it goes on with the other aggregates...
Aren't we reading too much into the anatta doctrine? If we realize that the SELF is impermanent and conditioned like everything else, then it becomes clear that the self or "I" is changing from moment to moment (perhaps, also lifetime-to-lifetime for those who accept rebirth), and it is not the same "I" (person) that exists from one moment to the next, the SELF and "I" are simply processes.
Any comments welcome.