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Question on reincarnation
If there is no "self" or "I" then how could "I" be reincarnated????
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There is lots of discussion of this issue here. Some possible answers:
1) Because it is not the "self" that is reincarnated but something else, eg "Karmic DNA"
2) Because of the interconnectivity of all things there is no division between incarnations.
3) Because the process continues, and all there ever was is process.
4) Just because....
namaste
Kutadanta: "Tell me, O Lord, if there be no atman [soul], how can there be immortality? The activity of the mind passeth, and our thoughts are gone when we have done thinking."
Buddha replied: "Our thinking is gone, but our thoughts continue. Reasoning ceases, but knowledge remains."
--http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/btg/btg54.htm
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Sat: Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else.
The Buddha: Foolish man, to whom do you know me having preached this Teaching. Haven't I told, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, you foolish man, because of your wrong grasp, blame me, destroy yourself, and accumulate much demerit.
-- http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/038-mahatanhasankhaya-sutta-e1.html
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"The extinction of the Blessed One will be by that passing away in which nothing remains that could tend to the formation of another self. Nor will it be possible to point out the Blessed One as being here or there. But it will be like a flame in a great body of blazing fire. That flame has ceased; it has vanished and it cannot be said that it is here or there. In the body of the Dhanna, however, the Blessed One can be pointed out; for the Dharma has been preached by the Blessed One."
-- http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/btg/index.htm
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So are you saying you see rebirth as a load of balls?
Sorry! I couldn't resit:p
namaste
It does seem to involved a lot of noisy collisions...
P
Basically in the same way there is no 'self' but you will still wake up tomorrow being you.
In addition to the responses in this thread, use the "Search" function (see top of page) and look for "rebirth" and "reincarnation". You will find loads of information on this matter from different perspectives. Have fun!!!!
As you read the posts, look out for Paticca-samuppada (dependent origination). This is the understanding that phenomena arise together in mutually interdependent web of cause and effect. Their arising, enduring, changing and disappearing are taking place constantly and endlessly. Nothing in the world is absolute. Everything is conditioned, relative, and interdependent. There are different interpretations of this, some explain it over one lifetime (mostly people who don't accept rebirth), some over three lifetimes or many lifetimes (mostly people who accept rebirth), etc... See what makes sense to you. Sorry, I can't make things any easier...
Metta
If there is no-self now then no self is reborn. 'Selfhood' and 'otherness' are both products of conceptuality - that is their only reality. A pseudo-self dies and a pseudo-self is reborn.
But the extreme of nihilism should be avoided.
I am taught: "You" are not "reincarnated". What moves on it the set of imprints (the karmas). Therefore, precious FoibleFull will cease to exist at death. So will precious clearview. And if you were able to look back from your next rebirth and see clearview, you would exclaim "Who the **** is THAT?" because clearview would not "feel" like this new "you". In this way, "self" is indeed impermanent. Yet new-you would carry the same mental and emotional habits that clearview had ... imprints for anger as well as imprints for Practice, etc. These imprints are said to determine the situation of our rebirth and the environment (our body,family, society, etc) we grow up in.
For the record, Hindus and new-agers use the term "reincarnation". Budddhists use the term "rebirth". And it is a good distinction, because Buddhists don't believe that your self-identity reincarnates, while others tend to believe this.
Note: TIBETAN Buddhists DO use the word "reincarnation" ... they use it to describe a deliberate rebirth chosen by an accomplished Buddhist Master ... such as the Dalai Lama and others of high skill. The rest of us schlumps merely "rebirth".
Maybe this explains why people have called me an eight ball before?
Mtns
As to what is reincarnated: it is your (constantly changing) consciousness.
Wikipedia's definition may be useful here, as it ties together a few of the others already given:
In traditional Buddhist cosmology these lives can be in any of a large number of states of being including the human, any kind of animal and several types of supernatural being (see Six realms). Rebirth is conditioned by the karmas (actions of body, speech and mind) of previous lives; good karmas will yield a happier rebirth, bad karmas will produce one which is more unhappy. The basic cause for this is the abiding of consciousness in ignorance (Pali: avijja, Sanskrit: avidya): when ignorance is uprooted, rebirth ceases. One of the analogies used to describe what happens then is that of a ray of light that never lands.<sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference">[4]</sup>
Is that starting to make any more sense?
Namaste
Does that not contradict "At death only the rupa-skandha (physical body) ceases, the other skandhas continue on."?
This is not what was said in this Thread. It was said that karma is a "thing" that continues on to the next life, rather than karma conditioning the next life.
Really, many views have been put forth in this Thread. :S
Karma is not a 'thing' (as in an object), but it does continue into the next life. Karma is part of the chain of causation -- more like time than space.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/reincarnation.htm
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/fdd47.htm
buddhanet actually simplifies many things for laymen. You can try reading up on the website. It's great!
As far as I can recall the Buddha didn't describe the actual mechanism of rebirth in the suttas. So the OP question is not easy to answer in an authoritative way.
P
So how do we explain that? It seems to largely rely on what we remember and also our habits?
P
I'm interested. What are the training methods to experience all khanshas sans the physical body?
So Daozen, who shall we all believe of the various answers given?
kanshas sans?
Tibetan Book of the Dead (Video)
I have never even heard your answer before. So I have to try to find a teacher who teaches your belief to understand? You can't even give a vague description of the practice you're talking about?
And I don't believe anyone. The OP asked a question and had fifty different authoratative answers hurled at him. So much speculation. Perhaps it's sometimes best to admit we just don't have an answer.
* I share views, I don't 'teach'
* My views are based on my practice
* I have no beliefs that would be useful to anyone
* It would not be appropriate to offer (these) methods on a bulletin board
* If you wish to discuss practice email me
* We should return to topic as a respect to clearview
o.o you take things very personally, and literally. o.o
This is the topic. If you can't back up what you say in any way whatsoever, then what's the point in posting it. How can clearview or anyone else go about confirming your claims when you offer nothing but "this is the truth, you can know it for yourself, but I won't tell you how or point you to someone who will, or even how experientially confirming one can feel and think and percieve without a physical body is at all logical."
Although I fully expected the "this cannot be talked about on an Internet forum" response. Perhaps the supposed results of the practice-whose-name-shall-not-be-spoken should not be discussed here, either?
This I is a mental construct and is inherently empty. It relies on memory and projection of this construct into an imagined future. It is not there in the present moment.
One forgets one's childhood, events of one's life years ago unless they are of significance and hence strongly imprinted into the memory. Take away the memory and the sense of self vanishes.
Even time is not experienced without reference to an external point ie. movement of the sun or clock. So when one is asleep or unconscious, the length of time passed is simply not experienced.
I think therefore I am is not correct. It should be I think, therefore I think I am.
If one clings to one's memories, feelings, perceptions then there will be an experience of rebirth from one moment to moment and perhaps even to "lifetime after lifetime"
Rest of the Ananda Sutta SN444.10 here.
This is somewhat off-topic... but nonetheless a nice read....
Mine of course. :winkc:
I would not trivialize esoteric practices as mere 'mind-trips' , Buddha taught his doctrine to those on other levels of existence just as he did here on this level. He obviously had knowledge of such practices and used them to full effect. I don't accept the view that he was merely 'mind-tripping'.
I once dreamt I'd done my grocery shopping and thought it was a memory until I realized the fridge was empty....
An old neighbour used to talk to God....
Indisputable...
Ok, and where does this get us in the context of "freedom from dukkha"?
Ask those who say there is reincarnation.
Based on what do you say the four aggregates continue except the rupa? Can you elaborate the process please? Is this a realization you have had or are you following some teacher's words?
What Kannada is saying is nonsense.
My afterlife is bigger than yours, etc etc...
I mean, I love a debate but this?
The Buddha did not say there is no "self" or no "I".
The anatta doctrine is not stating that there is no self. It states that the self is an Illusion not that it does not exist. Nor does it assign any credence or "truth" to the experience of the self nor to the experience that there is no self.
Think about it. If there was in reality no self then what would we need the Dhamma for?
It is precisely for the reason that you and I experience a self that the Dhamma is useful.
From MN 2
As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
/Victor
I referred to the topic and its mischievous way of bring the cow to the market when the market is closed, if ya gets ma drift.
I am more guilty than most of being suckered by this very seductive seducing moocow....
namaste
He said that this could be easily refuted or brushed aside but that upon a long time observing these skandas during meditation one could become sure that none of them were what a person would mean as a self.
This view was (in the book) known as the Shravaka view on emptiness. 4 other views: prasangika, shentong, sautantrika, and cittimatra were also presented.
As there are diverse views on this forum there are also diverse views on this book or so I understand.
Little less information pretty please
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The doctor is saying that out of body experiences are common when you are about die?
Nobody ever have any eating plum experiences or watching Desperado experiences when the brain lacks oxygen then? Remarkable.:skeptical
/Victor
I wasn't talking about eating plums or watching such and such was I? Please, tell your story ...
What the doctor says is experiences which "feel like" out of body experiences are probably just imaginations, hallucinations, perceptions a person gets when you are delirious and very sick. I was myself lying there on my bed and was extremely sick with fever one day. I wanted to have a sip of water but couldn't reach for it but I am sure I had this imagination that I reached there and had water. Did I have water in reality? No
There are other factors involved and methods that alter the level of consciousness (which place us in other planes) without even leaving the body. Here isn't the place to go into that though...
Yea, this part of course I understand on the basis that the realms are just mental states which we experience. For example, the rapture and joy which meditators experience during deep stages are probably close to what is explained in the books as "Brahma Realms".