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sexually unethical??
ZendoLord84
Veteran
A close friend of mine (girl) is a student, has a boyfriend, doesn't cheat or anything etc. As a job on the side, she has webcamsex with men.
This earns twice as much as I make with a regular job, and three times as much with some job she otherwise would have. So it means more time to study and relax. Her boyfriend doesnt have much problems with it, he's sure aint pleased with it, but he understands the advantages of a job like this, and he doesn't find the men she cams with a threat.
Lately she came up with the question wether it's ethical or not what she does with her job. She nows i'm a bit of a buddhist, and she wanted my opinion about it.
Taken from the third precept and partially the fourth precept I think it's not the right thing to do. I've been trying to explain this to her, but i'm finding it difficult to find the words for it.
So.......inspire me with your words and points of view...
This earns twice as much as I make with a regular job, and three times as much with some job she otherwise would have. So it means more time to study and relax. Her boyfriend doesnt have much problems with it, he's sure aint pleased with it, but he understands the advantages of a job like this, and he doesn't find the men she cams with a threat.
Lately she came up with the question wether it's ethical or not what she does with her job. She nows i'm a bit of a buddhist, and she wanted my opinion about it.
Taken from the third precept and partially the fourth precept I think it's not the right thing to do. I've been trying to explain this to her, but i'm finding it difficult to find the words for it.
So.......inspire me with your words and points of view...
0
Comments
I think some of the stigma of a sexual job is just thinking. But we have to seriously think if someone is getting harmed; thats what we need to think about.
that's what I find difficult to find words for. The sex-industry (porno, webcam, magazines, etc.) sells illusions?? They sell how we would like to see sex, instead of how it actually is?? A cam girl says things to a guy she doesnt mean, just to keep him online longer to make more money. That's against right speech and such.
Would the damage be greater if a guy would NOT log in to such a camwebsite, and go out to a bar or something with great sexual desire.
Would a visitor of a webcamsite get negative karma? For example contributing by spending money?
What if this friend decides to quit that work, if forced to take a lot more demanding job, and fails her study? Would that be negative cause she has less diploma's, or positive because she's confronted with real life, rather than chosing the easy way?
Is webcam sex actually sexual misconduct...or is it evolution in customs and interspecies behaviour?
saying wether i'm in favour or opposed is easy, wether it's karmatic responsible is a lot harder to define.
Maybe you should also look at this from the side of "RIGHT LIVELIHOOD" the fifth factor in the Noble Eightfold Path: Is her "profession" bringing harm to other beings?
That's between her and her boyfriend.
a relationship does not seem to be a standard for ethical / unethical behaviour...
It could be good for the relationship, but have wrong karma upon others...and visa versa...
correct me if I did not see something here...
agreed...
isn't she in some way helping them...by getting rid of their sexual desires??
No... she's adding fuel to sexual desire.
I'm not sure it's that simple. The desire is there, otherwise they wouldn't partake of here services. Is she fueling it, or sating it? I think you could get 100 psychologists to give you 100 different answers on that.
Mtns
These things used to be clear for me, that working on the samsaric field of emotions and needs are automatically something bad and not good for you, for example earning money by having webcamsex with men etc. blabla
But when my personal practice has gone deeper, i have realized that i have no ground to judge anyone else morally, because that stuff still comes behind the illusion of being separated from other human beings. So whats wisdom then?
I havent tryed webcam sex so i dont know for sure, but propably its like any other form of samsaric pleasure/life. The wordly passion and sense of pleasure is based on friction rather than metta or knowing who you and the other human really is. Pleasure is so much easier to pursuit than the experience of metta, because you cannot force metta in the same way than you can force a sensation of pleasure. I dont think there is anything wrong by selling these "images" for customers online, its bodily activity as working on a super market, but it is an area where you can loose the little balance you have easily, meaby
Probably she even wonders how easy it is to play that part
I think that the most interesting part of this hole thing is the fact, that she asks what you think of the home thing as a buddhist
So if she is in panic or so, i would recommend something that grounds her to her body. But the thing is that if she "sells her body" there might be an identity crisis wish prevent her from grounding, because she dont know what the body is? Whats image and whats real
Or she can deny all this and press it down, but that creates an bad conflict for her inner and outer worlds and takes away the sensation of silence and peace wish are vital for well being.
So if she is in pain sometimes, i would recommend that someone reads her a book when going to sleep or something like that
So my point is that it takes alot of mature self knowledge to do work like that, even tho it seems quite innocence. And its a challenge to grow. Imagine if you could do the webcam thing from a solid ground
Instead of trying to take away sexual desires, i think its better to cultivate those desires first to become lighter with a flavour of humor as well
Point taken.
I never said a relaitonship was a standard for ethical/unethical behaviour. If both of them are ok with it, they're free to do what they wish. Further, if someone else wishes to mutually masturbate on-cam with her, that's their business as well. I'm not sure what "have wrong karma upon others" actually means, nor how this is "wrong/bad karma" anyway.
i believe things can be wrong, even tough everybody agrees or doesn't care about it. There are enough moments in human history to back this up. I'm not sure it's wrong karma (altough I seem to favor this over good) , thats why i started this thread. I think I've translated 'have wrong karma upon others' wrong from my first language, my apologies.
What I ment was...
Maybe they are okee with it in their own relationship, but it still can be harmfull for others...
Its between her, her boyfriend, and her customers.
Their individual reactions to the behavior will determine any potential outcomes, either positive or negative.
There isnt a single clear-cut answer.
Personally, I dont think she is doing anything wrong.
Can be. Porn is usually linked with drugs, addiction, violence, sexual misconduct etc. It is possible that she is provoking some rapist/child abuser who is looking at her clips while on drugs. These are all common scenarios.
As you can see, what she does may not be inherently right or wrong but on moral grounds she might have to deal with some bad kamma in the future due to her actions in the present. How about her kids growing up and seeing her clips which can be all over the web? What if the child reacted badly to them?
I think "usually" is a bit of an over-statement.
"often" might be a better word.
so what u mean is being in touch with ur sexuality, being so comfortable the 'heaviness' of the whole act becomes less important/fades away?
then, at one point, there will be no more camsites I guess...altough the 'heaviness' is proberly the reason why someone visits such a website in the first place.
can altough the deed itself isnt harmfull, the indirect consequenses of the deed be harmfull??
But more important, do these indirect effects of the deed make the direct deed itself harmfull or not?
hhe
You gain nothing, but you loose something
So id say we are all in the same boat, with same "harmfull" and "unhamfull" qualities. You, me and the webcam girl. And thats the only ground that we can start to build, and think from. So instead of trying to change the webcam girl or the world, its better to learn from it.
Well nothing last for ever, but i think camsites will be here till the end of humanity. Still we are in a way judged to confront our own heaviness and hopefully lightness what comes to consuming and our idealisms etc etc.
People will have sex, but its better to have good sex instead of sex witch is based purely on samsaric friction. And its difficult! Thats why we need to practice meditation. Its quite simple really..
it's too bad u have mistaken my questions and my toying with different viewpoints, making suggestings to get new insights for pinning down a judgement on her. In a lot of my lines there are questionmarks...that doesn't sound judgemental to me, more curieus.
I hope the referral to 'zenmasters' wasn't a personal attack, otherwise i have to ask you why you react so heavy and angry to this thread? Did I offend you in some way?
I know all about the suffering that is life, I never pretended to be enlightend or better or different or above or below. Í've done drugs, watched porn, done minor criminal activities as a teenager, i'm NO saint. I'm just trying to be a better person.
And I thought this question, wether is oke or not (karma and buddhistwise) would be an excellent casus to learn about a buddhist point of view on this matters.
Most sex in today's society is based on lust, no commitment, quick fix off to the next. We hook up in bars, completely wasted of liquour, have sex for one night or a few, decide our personal differences are to big to overcome and we break up before we even started something.
Now the above is a generalisation, but it is often somewhat how it goes.
Maybe there is nothing absolutely wrong with adults consenting to exchanging cash for online sex. But just looking at it from the male perspective, from the perspective of your male mind, your desires, your dukkha, do you see benefit?. Does the scenario where it's a lonely guy connecting and relieving himself in a fare exchange ring true for you?. Guys know what this is about and if they are Buddhists and are serious about practicing the Dharma they will not go down the road of porn.
As far as other peoples relationship are concerned it's their business but in general terms there is nothing wrong with telling a friend who is showing her vagina to anonymous men for money that you think it's a really unhealthy gig.
Not saying it's wrong. Just putting things in perspective.
PS. I cannot see myself ever being in a relationship with a sex worker-- it just would feel very unclean, can't think of a better word. And I have trouble imagining how anyone else can have an intimate, committed relationship with a sex worker either, it's just completely beyond imagination. Well, maybe I'm a closet puritan
LOL...wel it'll proberly go messed up...:)
altough, there have been times i've seen porno and got rather disgusted by it. Disgust is better to manage then some wild testosteron attack...
Can you give historical examples that are actually comparable to this situation (i.e. entirely between the three people involved)?
Do you agree with banning same-sex marriage? Or even homosexuality all together?
Would you like others deciding what you can and cannot do in the privacy of your own home?
A lot of these are unanswerable questions. Correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm just starting to learn Buddhist practice, but I think the point is not that we get a right answer to everything and that we find an answer to all these questions, but that we are thinking about what the right answer might be in the first place. You know, exercising the old noodle! Doing that, we are more likely to go on the more skillful paths in general than if we did no thinking at all.
It's an interesting situation. It's an excellent example of the things in life that have so many facets and can affect the world in so many ways, both positive and negative. The girl must decide for herself whether it's a net positive or net negative. In my opinion, it's not something that I would (or could) do but I don't see a problem with someone else doing it. If she's fine with it and the boyfriend is, then I have no objections. But if she's asking, does that mean she IS completely fine with it and is just curious, or does she have some serious misgivings? Again, only she can decide and deal with that.
No I do not know an example conserning this three people (she, boyfriend, customer), i was talking about humanity in general. I will see if she has an example herself or not.
Secondly I do not understand with same-sex marriages of homosexuality has to do with the topic being discussed....but to answer your question...I think love is blind when it comes to colour, gender, to some extend age, etc.
Third. I would not like it when people start to dictate me. HOWEVER! This friend came to me with this question? Since i'm consider myself a good friend and I did not have an answer right away, I look into the matter, I go to a buddhist forum (look up the definition) and I spend meditation and time to formulate an answer. What ur asking me has completely nothing to do with the question if it is morally right/wrong wise/unwise to have a job like my friend's in her situation.
Please explain why u asked me this questions and explain what my personal opinion has to do with it.
Just think about it: if she does want to settle down some day and have a traditional monogamous relationship with a guy, what right will she have to ask for sexual faithfulness from him? Won't it be hypocritical of her to get angry at him if he cheats? She'll be aware of that, at least subconcsiously, and landing a good match may be nearly impossible, as she's likely to feel unworthy of guys with serious intentions. Yeah, the more I think about it, the more it looks like her job choice is locking her into a life of disasterous relationships. No amount of extra cash can justify such a loss in the future. Tell her to stop now in the most eloquent language you can master.
It depends.
There are even possible scenarios that could illustrate her actions as being beneficial.
Perhaps interacting with her via webcam is providing a certain amount of relief and excitement to a customer that is keeping him from acting out in another, more harmful way.
There are many many possible different situations.
The act of nudy dancing online in and of its self is neutral if you ask me.
Its up to the individuals involved, their reactions, and their relationships.
Because people use your same arguments to justify invading homosexual's private lives, their bedrooms, etc.
That's what I love about this site
Mtns
Smells like fear to me, "putting things in perspective". She is still a feeling human being in than "dirty" act, who has exactly the same conditioned mind than we do. If you would do it, would you condemn yourself as being dirty afterwards? But after the webcam thing is over, life continues, and the "dirty" changes to something else, and changes to something else. Its impossible to divide one human being into "whore" and "mother", and trying to interact only with the other side. Because we all have the both sides, we all have strange fantacys etc
Imo it doesnt matter what people do really, the names "whore" or "mother" are just words or samsaric reality, witch doesnt ever exist in a way. Mother, child, whore, clean, dirty..
There is always violence involved when we put things on boxes or "in perspective". What i regard as noble behaviour is the choises and the emotions that one makes after he/she is out from hes/her comfort zone. For example if you would date with an angel, who turns out to be an ex prostitute, thats when life really mesures you
Yes!
It (sex) reminds more like eating or walking without the samsaric stuff. I guess that simple practice shows the level where you are in the "grand awakening"
But this may sound like a scifi novel, and its not the meaning of life eather. Even tho there are schools that build their whole ideology upon sex. hm!
Wise words. I readily admit that I'm guilty as charged, every day of my life-- some days more, some days less.
Yet words do matter, language largely defines human consciousness. The OP was describing the friend's occupution in roundabout ways. I think there's some amount of self-deception going there, an attempt at self-comforting via obsuring the issue. Clear verbal communication is like a sword cutting through confusion. I thought that using a more traditional way to describe the above-mentioned job would help with seeing the situation clearer. And thus bring the desired answer closer.
Yes, a prostitute may give up her ways completely. And yes, she may be a very good human being (an "angel", as you put it). And I agree, it would take a great man to see that and never make that a bargaining chip in the relationship politics (e.g. "look who you were, can't you cut me some slack now and then?" which can be expressed in very subtle ways).
I'm not against prostitution, I think it's pretty much inevitable. It's just that our society (any society, I imagine) considers it objectionable. Since the hero of the OP is to live in our society, her choices now are likely to present serious difficulties for her later, unless she firmly believes that lifelong promiscuity is the way for her to go. Which I tried to convey...
Well....uh... I was more like thinking that when your being mindful, your ...enthusiasm... for finishing the job just ain't there. Seeing as how the desires, volitional impulses, fantasies and so forth are unbound and not in the drivers seat anymore. But hey, different strokes for different folks.
What kamma is being created for her, is not for anybody to "judge" or evaluate.
The only - THE ONLY - kamma we should have any concern for, in any way shape form or result - is ours.
iamthezenmaster, her question to you, as a Buddhist, is unanswerable, even as far as giving a general Buddhist PoV opinion, is concerned, because every (Buddhist) person must decide for themselves what breaks the 5 precepts - for them - or what violates the 8Fold path - for them.
You cannot therefore give her a general Buddhist opinion, so all you can say to her is:
"If I were you, I would personally be unable to do this, because....."
and -
"If I were a guy, and was presented with the opportunity to engage in this practice with you via webCam, I would.....because...."
All you can tell her, is how it is with you, and why.
Everything else is complete, total guesswork and conjecture, and really not your position to expound.
And that's just my position, I'm expounding.....;)
The kammic concern of my friends and family is my concern. If they are in trouble it is my concern. If my sister was selling internet porn it would be my concern. And I trust that if I was heading into trouble it would be their concern.
i have had jobs where sex appeal was a requirement. at the time, i felt sexy and dirty all in one. it is nice to be constantly complimented and desired, it makes you feel very positive about your appearance. but... is feeling positive about your appearance truly a good thing or a bad thing? will it cause you to suffer more to feel this way? to cling even harder to your physical body? i think so, we all know beauty fades.
a career like this also makes you more dependent on others' opinions of you. the self esteem you achieve is false because it thrives on the comments of others. it can create a real obsession with image and perfection. if you are used to the attention everyday, and one day you don't receive any, the "what is wrong with me today?" question is likely to pop up. in my experience, it is a very dirty business to have your paycheck depend on the desires of others. as secure as you may think you are, the desire for acceptance can be a powerful adversary.
in this way, i think this job is unskillful. but then again, i will wholeheartedly admit that this is pure speculation on my part based upon my own (not terribly) similar experiences. perhaps your friend has a different mentality than i have.
edit: i should also mention that being the object of desire when the feeling isn't mutual oftentimes makes you feel as though you hold something over the other person. in other words, you are better than them because you have something they want. it can cause feelings of contempt and narcissism... even though sexual desires are natural and something everyone experiences. disgust may also be another feeling to emerge.
Sigh, what a world we live in where you can pull down your pants and earn instant spondoolicks!
Quoting relevant "key points for mindfulness of skillful livelihood":
- Our means of sustenance should not interfere with our spiritual development
- We can assess whether a job qualifies as Skillful Livelihood by means of a three-tiered inquiry
- At the first level of inquiry, we examine whether a job is inherently harmful to others or to oneself
- At the second level, we consider whether a job causes us to break any of the five moral precepts
- Finally, we ask whether other factors related to the job make it difficult for the mind to settle down
- If you lack harmful intentions, your mind will not be harmed by a job's adverse consequences
So...
1. Is it harmful to herself or others? You can think of cases where customers could get addicted to webcam sex or do it in a way that their spouses would consider "cheating", which would be harmful. But you can also think of cases where no harm is done.
2. Five moral precepts - "Sexual misconduct" or "intoxicants", maybe?
3. Is this interfering with her spiritual development?
4. Is she doing it with intention to make customers addicted to it, or to harm her customers' marriages? Hopefully not.
There seem to be quite a few ways to skin this particular cat.
Having said that, its not ok for a person man or woman to go against this fundemental desire.
The suffering of woman is a topic that most would shy away from or simply deny exists. It is important for a woman to see herself as precious with the capacity to make her own moral standards just as any human being.
Sexuality in itself is a beautiful thing. In fact in the highest buddhist teachings it is by reverence to femine aspect of life that helps embrace life itself. Morally your friend has to experience her own reality as it is interdependent upon herself partner friends and the lives of her customers and thier families.
Therefore humanity cannot exclude the actions of one individual from the rest of the whole. In buddha's teaching of interdependence i think your frend if she honestly wants to will , and can, embrace her own truth.
So each individual must eventually face the hard truth of impermance and grounded in this understanding we can all contribute to the happiness of our planet and its most precious being , that of the human race.
i like this.
This speaks to me. I work as a sound designer in theater, and sometimes it reminds alot of the realm of devas and demi-gods. Disgust and narcissism is really there, and even tho they (actors) train very hard on techniques like "acting with inner partner" or Grotowski method, and deal with deeper levels of art and existence, its very very rear that an actor can give up that demi god position for further "spiritual" development.
So usually actors end up with a blend of weird new age stuff, mixed with reiki and tantra sex
zen,
In my opinion, the best way to approach this would be to help her examine the way her trade is impacting her view. Its not really all that helpful to describe it as positive, negative or neutral from a society/universal karma point of view. However, if she is beginning to question her connection to this webcam-sex job, its possible that she's trying to outgrow it, or part of her is recognizing her dissatisfaction.
There are many, many pitfalls that arise when we bear ourselves to others, in all senses of the words. To do so for money can be especially difficult. It can lead to a sense of empathic estrangement from our own skin, as we place tangible value on self, it often devalues it. Being truly intimate and honest with others can be difficult even in the best conditions.
The moral declarations that have flown about this topic seem well written and for the most part worth examining. But, how is her life growing her? That is almost certainly a great area for her examination.
With warmth,
Matt